• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

History is nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt?

James972 said:
100% absurd since Democrat and Republican ideas built the greatest country in all human history by far and have since been busy converting the remainder of the world, China for example, to their ideology. Nothing like it has ever happened in human history and there are no actually more important events in human history which explains why you forgot to name them!
Click to expand...

Wow.
Did someone tell you this stuff or are you making it up?
 
Tigerace117 said:
Actually, plenty of people can disagree. The US rapidly grew out of the "tiny tiny tiny" government that you love so much, and I don't see anybody saying it isn't free.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of people see the U.S. government eroding rights over time. Of course, we've also had amazing jumps in advancement of freedom during that time as well (e.g. abolition and universal suffrage), which makes it hard to measure.
 
Fishking said:
I think a lot of people see the U.S. government eroding rights over time. Of course, we've also had amazing jumps in advancement of freedom during that time as well (e.g. abolition and universal suffrage), which makes it hard to measure.
Click to expand...

True. The leaps in freedom for everybody outweigh the perceived erosion, at least in my book anyway.
 
Tigerace117 said:
True. The leaps in freedom for everybody outweigh the perceived erosion, at least in my book anyway.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with you as well. I do, however, believe there is a force cutting the other way that is, how to put it, egalitarian in it's growing violation of people's rights and freedom. There's a law for everything, these days, and we're probably violating some of them as we speak.

We have the government telling people they can't put stuff in their bodies to get them high (I don't like drugs but hey, if that's your cup of tea it's your loss) or the government confiscating people's land for private businesses through eminent domain. The War on Terror really ramped up government involvement in people's lives, violating privacy laws and such.

These are concerning trends.
 
James972 said:
American intellectuals argue that history is a straight line from Aristotle to Jefferson. Aristotle invented the idea of freedom from liberal govt and finally it grew big enough that a county (the USA) could be founded (with Jefferson's help) on the idea. When we study history and think about history this is what should concern us, primarily. Can anyone disagree?
Click to expand...

Sorry, but it sounds like a load of coprolite to me.

Most "intellectuals" do not live in the real world. They live in a fantasyland where they are primarily of the Liberal bent, and make up such theories in order to justify not only their paychecks but to try and advance their own agenda in any way they can.

And anybody who thinks such ideas about Jefferson is clearly deluded. Look at the young Jefferson circa 1776, then look at the older President Jefferson 3 decades later. The younger was clearly an idealist who was both contradictory yet had passions he wanted to enact. Including the idea of almost no government and a government strictly contained and controlled. The later one was much more pragmatic and would stretch the limits of the Constitution in order to achieve goals which he thought was best for the nation (including land acquisition and even war).

Sorry, but I reject the very idea you are trying to make wholesale.
 
Oozlefinch said:
Sorry, but I reject the very idea you are trying to make wholesale.
Click to expand...

so you don't think history is the struggle between freedom and govt as Aristotle and Jefferson thought?? Then what is it??
 
Oozlefinch said:
The later one was much more pragmatic and would stretch the limits of the Constitution in order to achieve goals which he thought was best for the nation (including land acquisition and even war).
.
Click to expand...

what????????? Jefferson was always for maximum freedom from big liberal govt. In fact he founded the Republican Party, with Madison, to clarify that the Revolution had been about freedom. He died a Republican through and through!! Now do you understand?
 
Fishking said:
I'd agree with you as well. I do, however, believe there is a force cutting the other way that is, how to put it, egalitarian in it's growing violation of people's rights and freedom. There's a law for everything, these days, and we're probably violating some of them as we speak.

We have the government telling people they can't put stuff in their bodies to get them high (I don't like drugs but hey, if that's your cup of tea it's your loss) or the government confiscating people's land for private businesses through eminent domain. The War on Terror really ramped up government involvement in people's lives, violating privacy laws and such.

These are concerning trends.
Click to expand...

of course the biggest trend is govt taking at gunpoint 50% of GDP or your lifetime income and largely wasting it!
 
James972 said:
what????????? Jefferson was always for maximum freedom from big liberal govt. In fact he founded the Republican Party, with Madison, to clarify that the Revolution had been about freedom. He died a Republican through and through!! Now do you understand?
Click to expand...

No, he founded the Democratic-Republican Party.

And it had more to do with the old argument of States Rights and maximum freedom against a strong Central Government. You really do not know much about this, do you?

Interestingly enough, they were also the group most strongly opposed to the Constitution, supported France even through it's Revolution, and tried to push legislature through the State assemblies that would nullify any laws they thought were "Unconstitutional".

Which is starkly in contrast with his later actions, specifically getting the US involved in it's first overseas war without a Declaration of War.

Then he purchased Louisiana, something he himself stated was Unconstitutional according to his own beliefs in the powers of the President and Federal Government. Because the power of the Government to buy (or sell) land was never laid out in the Constitution, therefore it was prohibited by his strict interpretation of the document.

The Party he founded was not the Republican Party, but the one that morphed into the Democratic Party. The opposition Party were the Federalists, which then became the Whigs, which after they self destructed over the issue of slavery were reformed as the Republican party.
 
James972 said:
what????????? Jefferson was always for maximum freedom from big liberal govt. In fact he founded the Republican Party, with Madison, to clarify that the Revolution had been about freedom. He died a Republican through and through!! Now do you understand?
Click to expand...

I don't understand "a republican through and through" as being a republican has evolved to and fro over the years. The GOP in 1956 was more like today's democrats. The Southern democrats in the 60's, were more like today's republicans.

But I do pay attention to history...... More people should.

View attachment 67215840
 
Captain America said:
I don't understand "a republican through and through" as being a republican has evolved to and fro over the years.
Click to expand...

Sure but Jefferson's Republican Party, and our Founders, stood for freedom from big liberal govt and so do modern Republicans and so did Aristotle. So now you need to ask yourself which side of history are you on: freedom or govt??. Do you know? Have you ever thought about it? Can you tell us?
 
Captain America said:
I do pay attention to history
Click to expand...

then you know that despite so called "control" of 3 branches Trump can get little done, let alone reverse the huge liberal drift of the country that has destroyed its families children schools churches and workers.
 
James972 said:
Sure but Jefferson's Republican Party, and our Founders, stood for freedom from big liberal govt and so do modern Republicans and so did Aristotle. So now you need to ask yourself which side of history are you on: freedom or govt??. Do you know? Have you ever thought about it? Can you tell us?
Click to expand...

No, they did not. The very concept of a "liberal government" as we know and understand it today did not even exist at that time.

Remember, in 1830 a well known Representative spoke out against a payment to the widow of a Naval Officer who had been killed in a duel. That was how tightly most believed that the government was to be restrained, and not do anything not expressly permitted in the Constitution.

Oh, and that Representative? He was a National Republican, a party created in opposition to the Jacksonian Democrat Party. They eventually were merged into the Whig party. So funny, that the very party descended from the opposition to "big liberal government" is the very party that later embraced such a government, as early as 1830.

The problem here is that you are not analyzing history and precedents and making a theory based upon what is shown. You instead have a theory and are trying to fit and pick and choose snippets that fit into your beliefs. That is always a failure. Especially to somebody who has extensively researched the birth and evolution of political parties in this country.
 
James972 said:
then you know that despite so called "control" of 3 branches Trump can get little done, let alone reverse the huge liberal drift of the country that has destroyed its families children schools churches and workers.
Click to expand...

This "huge liberal drift" you perceive just might be caused by the opinions and beliefs of the majority of Americans. Then there is the fact, I know inconsequential to you but none the less still factual, that by the standards of other industrialised nations America is viewed as rather conservative.
 
Somerville said:
This "huge liberal drift" you perceive just might be caused by the opinions and beliefs of the majority of Americans. .
Click to expand...
just might be or obviously is??????????????
 
Somerville said:
by the standards of other industrialised nations America is viewed as rather conservative.
Click to expand...

so?????its been moving hugely to the liberal direction and now you have adult kids living in their parents basements. we might be more conservative than France but they have 70% of our income per capita and would have 40% if they could not copy our inventions!
 
Somerville said:
This "huge liberal drift" you perceive just might be caused by the opinions and beliefs of the majority of Americans.
Click to expand...

Actually, the huge shift occurred in 1968. That is when the "New Left" largely deposed the old ultra-conservative Democratic Party, and replaced it with the Democrats that we have and know today.

The huge shift from Far Right to Far Left made the much more moderate Left Republicans now seem to be Far Right. But ironically their platform has largely remained unchanged since their founding. It was the shift of the Democrats that changed American Politics.
 
Oozlefinch said:
Actually, the huge shift occurred in 1968. That is when the "New Left" largely deposed the old ultra-conservative Democratic Party, and replaced it with the Democrats that we have and know today.

The huge shift from Far Right to Far Left made the much more moderate Left Republicans now seem to be Far Right. But ironically their platform has largely remained unchanged since their founding. It was the shift of the Democrats that changed American Politics.
Click to expand...

I disagree with your assessment in regards to the shifts in the parties. The platform of the Republicans has changed greatly since the early 70s. My own father-in-law was once a Pioneer, a man who donated $100,000 every year to the GOP from the 70s until the year Bush invaded Iraq. More than once he told me that he could not recognise the Republican Party of today as that he once knew. We don't speak about such matters any longer; it makes him sad and angry.
 
Somerville said:
I disagree with your assessment in regards to the shifts in the parties. The platform of the Republicans has changed greatly since the early 70s. My own father-in-law was once a Pioneer, a man who donated $100,000 every year to the GOP from the 70s until the year Bush invaded Iraq. More than once he told me that he could not recognise the Republican Party of today as that he once knew. We don't speak about such matters any longer; it makes him sad and angry.
Click to expand...

those are insignificant details. Plato/Aristotle was about freedom/govt, in 1792 Jefferson/ Hamilton was about freedom/govt, and today Republican/Democrat is about freedom govt. THere is no other issue in human history!! Do you understand?
 
Your individual freedoms will always be dictated by the majority of people that you live among.

80% of the people ( give or take ) will choose the path of least resistance.
 
RetiredUSN said:
Your individual freedoms will always be dictated by the majority of people that you live among.
.
Click to expand...

But the issue is whether freedom versus govt is the major concern in human history, and thus whether it's the concern that should motivate one as one studies history. Or, is there any point in studying history with anything else in mind?
 
Somerville said:
I disagree with your assessment in regards to the shifts in the parties. The platform of the Republicans has changed greatly since the early 70s. My own father-in-law was once a Pioneer, a man who donated $100,000 every year to the GOP from the 70s until the year Bush invaded Iraq. More than once he told me that he could not recognise the Republican Party of today as that he once knew. We don't speak about such matters any longer; it makes him sad and angry.
Click to expand...

Then you should be able to easily explain in what ways the party changed, and qualify that claim.

I however can easily qualify the claim about the Democrats however. In fact, there is the entire New Left, which was very Liberal and Socialist, which in the coming decade became major players in the Democratic party.

Can you imagine Jessie Jackson Jr. Being a Congressman in the old Democratic party?
 
James972 said:
But the issue is whether freedom versus govt is the major concern in human history, and thus whether it's the concern that should motivate one as one studies history. Or, is there any point in studying history with anything else in mind?
Click to expand...

Politics is the perfect barometer of human nature and it's effects on individualism.
 
RetiredUSN said:
Politics is the perfect barometer of human nature and it's effects on individualism.
Click to expand...

so you agree that the central issue in human history is freedom versus govt???
 
James972 said:
so you agree that the central issue in human history is freedom versus govt???
Click to expand...

Not exactly. A individual could in theory live as he liked if he was not harming others and without government nanny state interference, but still be afforded certain services that a government is inclined to provide by the voters demands. Even the most rugged individuals appreciate law & order and good roads.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom