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History is nothing more than the struggle between freedom and govt?

James972 said:
why not say why you disagree with first guy???????????
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I'll be honest James, I thought this:
->When we study history and think about history this is what should concern us, primarily.

Was so absurd that I thought it was self-evident why it would be rejected. I thought maybe by clarifying it further, you'd have made it sound more reasonable.
I happen to think when we study history, we should primarily be concerned about a broad exposure to history, much on the U.S., but also ancient history, world history, etc., and about the process of history itself (science, bias, rewriting history, etc.), etc. The sum of human history we summarize and learn and should teach, is so much broader than those two things, that the idea it's what we should "primarily be concerned with" when talking about history, just seems crazy to me. Like, not real that someone could actually think that.

Does that answer your question? I felt it was a little more compassionate to simply disagree.

I do think it's important, but historically its just a drop in the bucket. I think it should be touched on in sociology, economics, politics, and especially philosophy too though, and it usually is. It's overly important sometimes when we Americans think about it from our perspective...but that's natural.
 
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James972 said:
conservatives and libertarians would say its not nearly as free as they would like it to be. Do you understand?
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Yes, I understand that those people are idiots. What I don't understand is why you came up with this half baked theory.
 
Mach said:
I happen to think when we study history, we should primarily be concerned about a broad exposure to history,
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a broad exposure is absurd and meaningless since it may impart no wisdom at all. Someone could study history broadly for 100 lifetimes and say the Nazis were best. Aimlessly studying broadly is imbecilic.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Yes, I understand that those people are idiots..
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why are conservatives and libertarians idiots for thinking that we don't have enough freedom???
 
Tigerace117 said:
What I don't understand is why you came up with this half baked theory.
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not to embarrass you but that was the divide between Plato and Aristotle that remains the divide in world history to this day.
 
James972 said:
why are conservatives and libertarians idiots for thinking that we don't have enough freedom???
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Because we have plenty of freedom. We have more freedom than about 95% of the rest of the world.
 
James972 said:
a broad exposure is absurd and meaningless since it may impart no wisdom at all. Someone could study history broadly for 100 lifetimes and say the Nazis were best. Aimlessly studying broadly is imbecilic.
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Who said aimlessly?
Why would someone with a good understanding of human history, think the Nazi's were the best?

I think you missed a few classes perhaps while you pondered those same "primary' points of yours over and over and over.
 
James972 said:
not to embarrass you but that was the divide between Plato and Aristotle that remains the divide in world history to this day.
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Trust me, buddy; you couldn't embrass me if you tried.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Trust me, buddy; you couldn't embrass me if you tried.
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I just did: "not to embarrass you but that was the divide between Plato and Aristotle that remains the divide in world history to this day."
 
Mach said:
Who said aimlessly?
.
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you did!!!!!!!!!!! what could be more aimless that a primary concern with a broad exposure to history
 
James972 said:
you did!!!!!!!!!!! what could be more aimless that a primary concern with a broad exposure to history
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Indeed, let me think hard on what could possibly be more aimless than a broad exposure to academic history.

This thread?
 
Mach said:
Indeed, let me think hard on what could possibly be more aimless than a broad exposure to academic history.

This thread?
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how can thread be aimless when you have learned a new way to organize your study of history that can save you many lifetimes of aimless exposure to history?
 
James972 said:
I just did: "not to embarrass you but that was the divide between Plato and Aristotle that remains the divide in world history to this day."
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No, you launched into yet another one of your by now infamous tangents which have absolutely nothing to do with the way living humans actually think.
 
James972 said:
how can thread be aimless when you have learned a new way to organize your study of history that can save you many lifetimes of aimless exposure to history?
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lol. That's pretty funny. Class, let's open up the text book. 1. aristotle, freedom, Jefferson 2. lead to the U.S. etc. Class dismissed, enjoy this as a free hour the rest of the teamster kids, you are all educated now. That may win some votes with kids taking those classes, some of them were boring.
 
James972 said:
sustainability is a modern hippy word having to do with pollution. OP is about freedom as major trend in human history from Aristotle to Jefferson and Friedman.
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That is a conventional way of looking at it. One could also think about how different types of freedom affect societies and their economies or security. It is this approach to understanding freedom that I find more interesting, as it tells us more about how societies should be built to be around for a longer period instead of falling prey to unsustainability.
 
James972 said:
History is a straight line from big bang to the entire universe, not just to you. Do you have any idea what your point is?[/
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Sure I do. Take a look at what you've written.

"Aristotle invented the idea of freedom from liberal govt and finally it grew big enough that a county (the USA) could be founded"
"History is a straight line from big bang to the entire universe, not just to you."

Quite right.
The history of societies balancing freedom and [tyranny] has resulted in quite a few things besides the US.
Please consider that 50 years ago you had some people regarding all of history as a leading up to Communism, 200 years ago Nation States, 2000 years ago the Roman Empire, and so on.
America is young. In 500 years it is quite possible that it will be considered nothing more than yet another failed experiment in the history of people trying to resist oppressive leadership and eventually failing.
Reducing it to Aristotle and Jefferson seems a bit narrowminded, not just for the end result, but for the starting premise as well. Hence the dig.
 
James972 said:
did someone say they were free because of their liberal govt??? How can slaves be free?? Care to tell us what your point is if you know.
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That only a small percent of the US population at the time of Jefferson was actually free. A nation with an elite ruling over the rest is not a free country.
 
James972 said:
if the history of freedom is not a straight line from Aristotle to Jefferson what is it? what other significant battle has shaped all of human history and culminated in the USA, the most exceptional country in human history by far.!
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Oh fer christs sake.
 
James972 said:
sustainability is a modern hippy word having to do with pollution. OP is about freedom as major trend in human history from Aristotle to Jefferson and Friedman.
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No it's not. Loggers here where I live know about how to log sustainably, and there's not many hippies packing chainsaws in the woods. They're young guys, lots of them, and they want to work for a long time yet, and want their sons to have jobs too.
 
Grand Mal said:
No it's not. Loggers here where I live know about how to log sustainably, and there's not many hippies packing chainsaws in the woods. They're young guys, lots of them, and they want to work for a long time yet, and want their sons to have jobs too.
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Our subject is the major trend in all of human history. It is not sustainability but rather the battle between freedom and govt started by Aristotle and Plato and continued today by modern Democrats and Republicans.
 
James972 said:
Our subject is the major trend in all of human history. It is not sustainability but rather the battle between freedom and govt started by Aristotle and Plato and continued today by modern Democrats and Republicans.
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Modern Democrats and Republicans have about as much historicity as any other petty, inconsequential, political quibblers that have been forgotten in any period between actually important events in history. You need to know that it's going to take many more generations before the US hegemony can be called historically significant. There have been lots of hundred-year flashes in the pan.
 
James972 said:
American intellectuals argue that history is a straight line from Aristotle to Jefferson. Aristotle invented the idea of freedom from liberal govt and finally it grew big enough that a county (the USA) could be founded (with Jefferson's help) on the idea. When we study history and think about history this is what should concern us, primarily. Can anyone disagree?
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You're confused, government enables freedom.

Cavemen had less freedom than we have today.
 
Absentglare said:
You're confused, government enables freedom.
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an organized study of history shows that govt took away far more freedom than it supported. Make sense?
 
Grand Mal said:
Modern Democrats and Republicans have about as much historicity as any other petty, inconsequential, political quibblers that have been forgotten in any period between actually important events in history.
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100% absurd since Democrat and Republican ideas built the greatest country in all human history by far and have since been busy converting the remainder of the world, China for example, to their ideology. Nothing like it has ever happened in human history and there are no actually more important events in human history which explains why you forgot to name them!
 
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