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Pre WW1 England Was Libertarian?

Ganesh said:
There is no such definition in social democracy. Rights and freedoms apply to all in the modern western nations with this form of government, unless you want to look at an outlier or two, like being non-Jewish in Israel, or not paying off the right cop in El Salvador.

The Libertarian-Right philosophy is as far right as one can get. It disdains nearly all forms of public institutions, and encourages an every man for himself mentality. It is conservatism on steroids. It has the same crazed notions about perfectly functioning markets, invisible magic hands creeping about the streets, and the wise benevolence of the business community.

Unrestrained capitalist systems tend to gravitate to concentration of wealth and power. A true libertarian system would do the same, soon taking on the shape of a kind of corporate feudalism, with a few very powerful people, and a whole lot of hapless workers and peasants.
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There is such definition. In a social democracy, the majority votes away the freedoms of the minority. And im not libertarian right. Libertarian is middle down, not right or left.
 
Ganesh said:
Not making any such comparisons, merely replying to your uber-right colleague on a two part question: the freedom/social security argument, and the intents of the revolutionary war leaders.

The extremist right is forever trotting out items from 1780 or so, and they are for the most part ridiculous, but that is a part of the sub-culture.
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Stop with the name calling.
 
Ganesh said:
Not making any such comparisons, merely replying to your uber-right colleague on a two part question: the freedom/social security argument, and the intents of the revolutionary war leaders.

The extremist right is forever trotting out items from 1780 or so, and they are for the most part ridiculous, but that is a part of the sub-culture.
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I'm just pointing out that there is really not much of a comparison. The conditions of 1780 to today just doesn't work. We have slavery then, as well, and that goes against the principles of Libertarianism. I don't think is any comparable modern and prosperous country that runs on Libertarian principles. It's not been around very long. I do think that we were more Libertarian leaning in the past (in some was buy waaaay the opposite in others). Out of that the U.S. became the most dominant country the in the history of the world. Now, I'll fully admit this came about due to some variables that were mere circumstance (WWI & WWII blew up everyone else and not us) but there still had to be a solid foundation to work with.
 
Fishking said:
I'm just pointing out that there is really not much of a comparison. The conditions of 1780 to today just doesn't work. We have slavery then, as well, and that goes against the principles of Libertarianism. I don't think is any comparable modern and prosperous country that runs on Libertarian principles. It's not been around very long. I do think that we were more Libertarian leaning in the past (in some was buy waaaay the opposite in others). Out of that the U.S. became the most dominant country the in the history of the world. Now, I'll fully admit this came about due to some variables that were mere circumstance (WWI & WWII blew up everyone else and not us) but there still had to be a solid foundation to work with.
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So youre saying both sides of the argument cant be reduced to simple lables?
 
jonny5 said:
So youre saying both sides of the argument cant be reduced to simple lables?
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Some labels only get you through the front door, or a baseline. Then, once you're at that point, the depth and variety that is contained inside that label can almost seem immeasurable.
 
Harshaw said:
Sure, if you play with the word "conservative," like so many do.

I, of course, didn't say "conservative," as that means whatever the person saying wants it to.

Instead, I said "right-wing."

The only difference between the left wing and the right wing is the part of your life they want to control, and the further left and right you go, the less difference there is.


The only people who say that are critics of libertarians who don't actually understand libertarian or free-market arguments.



No, freedom exists when you're born. You are physically free to do whatever you want, and that condition exists independent of anything external. The default state is complete freedom.

All government can do is limit freedom. It cannot grant what it does not have to give. And speaking of "magic," there is no magic "freedom well" from which government draws and hands out freedom.
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I'm beginning to think the Libertarian Party is another term for the Pot Party. Johnson likes the stuff, and his adherents certainly seem to spend time in a hazy and confused ramble. No wonder no reasonable person takes this sort of stuff seriously.
 
Ganesh said:
I'm beginning to think the Libertarian Party is another term for the Pot Party. Johnson likes the stuff, and his adherents certainly seem to spend time in a hazy and confused ramble. No wonder no reasonable person takes this sort of stuff seriously.
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It doesn't matter what you "think." It matters what actually is.
 
Fishking said:
Some labels only get you through the front door, or a baseline. Then, once you're at that point, the depth and variety that is contained inside that label can almost seem immeasurable.
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Well thats not very convenient.
 
England, over the course of the 1800s, developed an industrial economy.

The landed gentry didn't like it one bit. But they did like a healthy economy. The end result was that they resisted every bit of government involvement, and lost every fight.

What happened is that they would drag their feet until they were faced with calamity or catastrophe. They would then relent. My favorite example was plague. They didn't want the government to get involved, but they liked plague even less. It was also the first practical application of statistics.

Concerning the thread topic, no. A Hobbesian intellect is at heart the antithesis of libertarian silliness.
 
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PeteEU said:
Come on.. you cant be that naive.. Yes you had kings and queens.. and nobility, who all lived by libertarian values. The rest of us were of course just less worth than dirt, but that does not mean that libertarianism is something new.... it has just become more "accessable" to more people. Ultimately it is about power and control.. and like in all political ideologies, libertarian values are no different. Freedom as long as libertarians agree on that freedom. Hypocrisy at its best.
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It didn't exist. A concept isn't enough. It had to officially have a name and a political party to be real.
 
PeteEU said:
Come on.. you cant be that naive.. Yes you had kings and queens.. and nobility, who all lived by libertarian values. The rest of us were of course just less worth than dirt, but that does not mean that libertarianism is something new.... it has just become more "accessable" to more people. Ultimately it is about power and control.. and like in all political ideologies, libertarian values are no different. Freedom as long as libertarians agree on that freedom. Hypocrisy at its best.
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Many country in Europe pre-ww1 were ruled by monarchs who thought they had a divine right to supreme power over the people. Nothing libertarian about pre-ww1 Europe.
 
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