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Ex-CIA spy admits tip led to Nelson Mandela's long imprisonment

faithful_servant said:
He was neither a communist or a socialist.
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"I should tie myself to no particular system of society other than of socialism." - Nelson Mandela

He was a Marxist
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Maybe. Who knows. I dont know if he embraced Marxism or not.

totalitarian who used both labels (communist and socialist) to help further his agenda of putting himself and the South African Communist Party in power (mostly himself).
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:lamo A "totalitarian"!?
1.)He was democratically elected and only served one term. He could serve two but he decided not to.
2.)He dismantled the system of press censorship
3.)He appointed officials from the National Party (the party of South African apartheid), and other parties to several government positions thus making a broader coalition
4.)No side was exempt from appearing before the The Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
5.)Apartheid was dismantled

He sued the inhumane abuses of Apartheid to draw in supporters and then turned around and used many of the same tactics against the whites in SA.
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:lamo What in gods name are you talking about?

He wasn't about all people being equal, he was about him at the top, this fellow blacks beneath him and whites beneath them.
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What!? How delusional are you? I mean do you have anything of substance to say or are you just going to make baseless claims.

Mandela was also a tool of the Soviets, who used him as a sock puppet leader of SA, while they were the ones who were truly running the show.
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:roll: Sureee.... Thats why many of the more hardcore socialists in the ANC criticized him on undergoing "neo-liberal capitalist reforms"

The poster before me said that I was in "la la land", actually your the one in "la la land". This irrational hate for a man (which is grounded in no reason and facts) who was the leader in bringing down a racist, totalitarian, imperialist government. I cant help but wonder if your an apartheid sympathizer.
 
Van Basten said:
Holy mental gymnastics, Batman.

I'll take a page out of Apdst's book and stop wasting my time.

You people are something else.
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:lamo How are you going to blame a man for actions taken by a group with who he had no contact with and was not acting on his orders!? Is this your sense of "justice"? Guilt by association?


You're like a living caricature.
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You find a group, your imprisoned for some reason, that group then commits tax fraud 18+ years later, I guess your to blame for the action of tax fraud, right?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
"I should tie myself to no particular system of society other than of socialism." - Nelson Mandela


Maybe. Who knows. I dont know if he embraced Marxism or not.


:lamo A "totalitarian"!?
1.)He was democratically elected and only served one term. He could serve two but he decided not to.
2.)He dismantled the system of press censorship
3.)He appointed officials from the National Party (the party of South African apartheid), and other parties to several government positions thus making a broader coalition
4.)No side was exempt from appearing before the The Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
5.)Apartheid was dismantled


:lamo What in gods name are you talking about?


What!? How delusional are you? I mean do you have anything of substance to say or are you just going to make baseless claims.


:roll: Sureee.... Thats why many of the more hardcore socialists in the ANC criticized him on undergoing "neo-liberal capitalist reforms"

The poster before me said that I was in "la la land", actually your the one in "la la land". This irrational hate for a man (which is grounded in no reason and facts) who was the leader in bringing down a racist, totalitarian, imperialist government. I cant help but wonder if your an apartheid sympathizer.
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So you want to highlight only the good he did and ignore the bad. He took power by taking over the revolution and putting himself at the top of that revolution. His election was pretty just a rubber stamp of that effort. While he stepped down as President, we was the power behind the throne for many years. While he handed out a few positions to former gov't officials, all of them were serving under someone from the ANC (I have two friends who are both South Africans and they both have told me the same thing - the former officials who left in place were figureheads and nothing more).

You'll always find someone who claims that someone else isn't as radical as tehy want them to be, so throwing out a quote from some fringe-dweller holds no water.

You're baseless accusations of my being racist are low even for you. If you don't like what I have to say, that's fine, but when you start i with low crap like that, you become just another troll looking for a flame-fight.
 
faithful_servant said:
So you want to highlight only the good he did and ignore the bad.
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Whats the "bad"? Blanket statements and claims you are making?

He took power by taking over the revolution and putting himself at the top of that revolution.
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Revolutions often have leaders... How is this "bad"?

His election was pretty just a rubber stamp of that effort.
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You're claiming that the 1994 election was not free and fair?

While he stepped down as President, we was the power behind the throne for many years.
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He was a very public person after retirement, true. But do you have any actual proof that he "was the power behind the throne for many years"?

While he handed out a few positions to former gov't officials, all of them were serving under someone from the ANC (I have two friends who are both South Africans and they both have told me the same thing - the former officials who left in place were figureheads and nothing more).
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"Figureheads"? They were the official ministers of Agriculture, Energy, Environment, Minerals and Energy, and Housing.... And to complain about former govenrment officials not being appointed "enough positions" are you really surprised? Mandela won the election. Its like complaining that a Republican wins the presidency and saying they dont appoint enough executive branch positions to Democrats.

You'll always find someone who claims that someone else isn't as radical as tehy want them to be, so throwing out a quote from some fringe-dweller holds no water.
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:lamo So in other words you have no evidence.

You're baseless accusations of my being racist are low even for you.
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1.) I said I wonder if you are.
2.)Baseless accusations? Your couple posts here are littered with them.

If you don't like what I have to say, that's fine, but when you start i with low crap like that, you become just another troll looking for a flame-fight.
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:roll:
 
RetiredUSN said:
View attachment 67201491

He should have been executed.
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As I posted earlier:

1.)During the period when Mandela was out of prison and helped lead the Umkhonto we Sizwe, they carried out sabotage against the Rhodesian state. This was sabotage of material not killing. He favored sabotage because, "it did not involve loss of life, it offered the best hope for reconciliation among the races afterwards.. This we hope would bring the government to the bargaining table. Strict instructions were given to members of MK that we would countenance no loss of life." https://books.google.com/books?id=sa...page&q&f=false
2.)The dates when the Umkhonto we Sizwe undertook a bombing campaign of soft targets, often leading to the death of civilians was when Mandela was imprisoned and had no communication with the Umkhonto we Sizwe.
3.)Its also important to note that after Mandela's imprisonment Umkhonto we Sizwe was in shambles and lacked little discipline.
4.) In conclusion its pretty silly to blame Mandela for these deaths for the above state reasons.

Its like saying, "You find a group, your imprisoned for some reason, that group then commits tax fraud 18+ years later, I guess your to blame for the action of tax fraud, right?"



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you guys support this ?
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Van Basten said:
Because facts don't matter.



Denouncing Mandela's old days of terrorism is support for white supremacy? It's like you're doing limbo, how low can you go!
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Who's supporting white supremacy? No one, that's who.

What is going on, is support is being giving to the bloodiest ideology in history and being hailed as a solution to white supremacy. Hypocrisy Is an understatement.
 
You can always have a discussion about who is a freedom fighter and who is a terrorist. Still it is a real problem that freedom and democracy have so low priority. For example that CIA labeled the people fighting apartheid in South Africa as communist terrosists with out having any alternative plan how apartheid could be abolished. That it wasn't before the end of the cold war and 90:s that apartheid was abolished. Or you can look at Saudia Arabia that USA and the West have hade close relathionship with since the 1970:s to keep the cheap oil flowing and for strategical reasons. That whithout any real plan for supporting a democractic transition instead Saudia Arabia is today one of the world´s most brutale dictatorships.
 
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