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Why do Americans pay more for health care?

I think all these things are good ideas. My problem is when one confronts a catastrophic situation like a heart transplant. The first year alone in 2008 (it was either 08 or 06) costs on average 787k. And there after drug costs range from 1.5k to 2k per month for life.

And when I say my problem I really do mean my problem. I'm in this situation.

well, an HSA is a tax free account linked to a high-deductible plan, that is designed precisely to handle catastrophic conditions such as a heart transplant. So, as soon as your costs exceeded $3,000 (or whatever cap you had decided to set) in a given year, the insurance company would step in and handle them. You make money because you won't need a heart transplant every year, and they make money because only a small percentage of the populace needs a heart transplant in any given year.

post - surgery is a different matter; because you will have higher costs for the rest of your life, then this will effect your ability to get actual insurance. Because Insurance is something we purchase to protect ourselves against unforseen dramatic losses - but you have a foreseen constant cost. Insurance which did not factor in those costs wouldn't be insurance - it would just be prepaid health care. In your case, were you to attempt to repurchase a new health care plan, you would either have to have a much higher deductible that includes the price of those drugs. NOW, there are a couple of market-options for people like you but as I'm not as spun up on them as I am on the material above I hesitate to give you bad information. Give me a little bit and I will see what I can dig up.
 
well, an HSA is a tax free account linked to a high-deductible plan, that is designed precisely to handle catastrophic conditions such as a heart transplant. So, as soon as your costs exceeded $3,000 (or whatever cap you had decided to set) in a given year, the insurance company would step in and handle them. You make money because you won't need a heart transplant every year, and they make money because only a small percentage of the populace needs a heart transplant in any given year.

post - surgery is a different matter; because you will have higher costs for the rest of your life, then this will effect your ability to get actual insurance. Because Insurance is something we purchase to protect ourselves against unforseen dramatic losses - but you have a foreseen constant cost. Insurance which did not factor in those costs wouldn't be insurance - it would just be prepaid health care. In your case, were you to attempt to repurchase a new health care plan, you would either have to have a much higher deductible that includes the price of those drugs. NOW, there are a couple of market-options for people like you but as I'm not as spun up on them as I am on the material above I hesitate to give you bad information. Give me a little bit and I will see what I can dig up.

Right now I'm in the Texas High Risk Pool with a 2.2 million cap. First I would like to see the cap removed. And you have to factor in the monthly payments for a disabled person, IOW I don't work.
 
The problem is that we are paying more, considerably more, and we are not getting the best possible outcome. Our morbidity statistics are abysmal.

If you are in a position to pay for the best possible care, even by going deeply into debt, you are already very, very fortunate.

Most people can go into debt to pay for their necessary care, so it doesn't make me fortunate.
I don't earn that much compared to my peers here at DP.

I have no problem supporting UHC for those with life changing inborn conditions, that would prevent them from being insured on any level.
 
*My* healthcare costs are "0"

The amount my insurance has paid out over the year, I'm sure, is astounding considering my husband's health issues and pregnancies - and dental costs.

But I wouln't know how much that comes up to because I don't see a single bill - it's covered 100%. So between the high tech sonogram and mri's done this week on my husband's leg - and the insurance company covering every penny - that pretty much explains why everyone's healthcare coverage is more and most costly - yet costing individuals less and less.

Do you look at your electric bill, your gas bill, your other bills? To many people are like you they don't look at their billing they just pay pay pay why because they don't have to pay directly for health care, I was billed for doctors visits, ex-rays and other services that were not performed, I challenged the billing and had those charges removed. I think health insurance is too expernsive but the insurance companies have no way to know if the health care billing is accurate or not if we don't check it
 
we pay more for a variety of reasons. for example, we aren't rationed, like happens in single-payer countries. we have third-party-payments, like they do, but we have our insurance industry keep paying, whereas the governments in those nations have an ability to just say "no screw you." we also consume more healthcare. two surgeries usually costs more than one or none. currently we have the worst of both worlds - socialized costs with privatized benefits, and it encourages massive overconsumption with no price pressure.

how to cut costs? well, the point here is to distinguish between costs and expenditures. costs change with the prices of insuring and providing healthcare are altered. expenditures change when the money coming out of the government alters. now, the two are obviously connected - the lower the costs, the easier to lower the expenditures; but not solid.

the current system of ours, where we each compete to try to get the most healthcare for someone else's money, only leaves us all losing. costs and expenditures rise dramatically each year. there are, however, a few worthy counterexamples; and it is instructive to take note of what they are doing correctly:

Indiana offered HSA's, which have patients save money in tax-free accounts (where it grows and remains theirs forever and ever unless theys pend it) matched with high deductible plans to it's employees. Employees began to respond to price signals, and medical costs per patient were reduced by 33% and expenditures to the state were reduced by 11%.

Safeway has instituted a program that gave financial incentives to people who engaged in healthy behavior by allowing price signals in the insurance side of the market to work (Indiana worked on the medical side), and saw it's per-captia health care costs remain flat from 2005-2009; when most companies saw theirs jump by 38%.

Whole Foods instituted HSA's, and let's the employees choose what they want the company to fund. This institutes price pressure on the medical side (WF covers the high-deductible plan 100%), and their CEO points out that as a result Whole Foods' per-capita costs are much lower than typical insurance programs, while maintaining employee satisfaction.

Medicare Part D utilized market pressure on the insurance side, and saw expenditures come in at 40% UNDER expenditures - the only such government program in history to do so.

Wendy's instituted HSA's, and saw the number of their employees who got preventative and annual checkup care climb even as they saw claims decrease by 14% (in one year).

Wal-Mart's low cost clinics and prescriptions save us oodles of cash. Wal-Mart reports that "half of their clinic patients report that they are uninsured" and that "if it were not for [Wal-Marts'] clinics they would haven't gotten care - or they would have gone to an emergency room". Walmart - reducing costs and expenditures.

all of these utilize the markets to lower costs and expenditures; and they are just the begining. Not using insurance to pay for every procedure, checkup, etc. reduces administrative costs, which in turn reduces medical costs - and as HSA's catch on (assuming that Obamacare - which criminalizes them - is repealed) we will see the positive effects of that on costs and expenditures as well.

Dr Robert Berry runs a practice called PATMOS (payment at time of service). he doesn't take insurance at all - but simply posts the prices of his services. By removing the cost of dealing with mutliple insurance agencies, medicare, and medicaid, the prices he is able to list are one half to ONE THIRD of standard. That's huge.

what do all these programs have in common? They use market price pressure. People start to make better informed, and more conscious decisions once they are compensated for doing so.

current democrat plan is to reduce market pressure and cut straight expenditures, while taking steps that have historically increased prices. The idea is to have the IPAB decide when your care is no longer cost-effective to the government, and cut you off.

current republican plan is to increase market pressure to reduce both costs and expenditures, and do so in a way that lets seniors decide what is or isn't cost-effective. The idea is to put into place some of the strategies outlined above.

When an insurance company denies a procedure is that not rationing, if not what do you call it?
 
Is it because of widespread obesity? Alcohol consumption? an aging population? outrageous malpractice suits? all of the above?

Check it out here:

Now, how can we bring those costs under control?

Since we don't want to prohibit personal choice when it come to food, drink and tobacco the obvious way to impact poor health choices is to have people pay upfront for consuming items that will have an adverse effect on their health, the simplist way is to place a sin tax on choices that lead to health problems. 20% on alcohol and tobacco, 10% on all other junk foods and beverages.
 
Do you look at your electric bill, your gas bill, your other bills? To many people are like you they don't look at their billing they just pay pay pay why because they don't have to pay directly for health care, I was billed for doctors visits, ex-rays and other services that were not performed, I challenged the billing and had those charges removed. I think health insurance is too expernsive but the insurance companies have no way to know if the health care billing is accurate or not if we don't check it

I wonder why they don't? Insurance companies could save a lot of money by simply contacting the patient and asking, "Did you really have a (whatever procedure)? If the answer is no, then they could deny the claim and then make the provider's life miserable by nitpicking every claim. Medicare could go one better by imposing a stiff fine. Fraud would become less profitable, or so it seems to me.
 
I wonder why they don't? Insurance companies could save a lot of money by simply contacting the patient and asking, "Did you really have a (whatever procedure)? If the answer is no, then they could deny the claim and then make the provider's life miserable by nitpicking every claim. Medicare could go one better by imposing a stiff fine. Fraud would become less profitable, or so it seems to me.

Why not have the patient or patient representative sign off on the procedure prior to sending it into the insurance company?
 
Pretty bad article and I'm in favour of public health care. Still the people who made this article are either idiots or they have a political agenda and have no problems with lying.

Their argument about lawsuits is bull****. It's not the lawsuits themselves, but the attemt to prevent lawsuits that drive costs up. This drives doctors to get lots of tests.

They say that providers charge more because they can and the answer is more regulation? If they can charge more, then that will show in their profit statements, which it doesn't. And if there is a huge profit, it's more likely it is due to too much regulation, not too little. And how much is 64 billion dollar in excess spending on doctors when we spend 2300 billion dollars on health care in total. I thought they used the argument that obesity only counts for a tiny fraction of costs? Their argument about obesity is bull. Think about hip replacement or fixing knees. Who needs this more, fat people or skinny people? I hardly think this cost is covered by diseases.

In reality there are other factors they didn't even mention. One of the drivers is that you can get everything for free if you have insurance. This means that many patients get unneccecary tests. In other countries people don't get enough tests. This is a huge factor. John Stossel explore that in 20/20.

 
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Why not have the patient or patient representative sign off on the procedure prior to sending it into the insurance company?

Why not indeed?

From Camlon's post:
Their argument about lawsuits is bull****. It's not the lawsuits themselves, but the attemt to prevent lawsuits that drive costs up. This drives doctors to get lots of tests.

OK, that sounds plausible, but how do you know it is a major factor?

One of the drivers is that you can get everything for free if you have insurance.

If you have first class insurance, the kind that few of us can afford, sure.

What is really needed is a catastrophic care package that covers everyone, but doesn't pay 100%. You have a good point that the patient not knowing what the costs are may be a factor.

However, one thing that insurance companies do is pre negotiate prices. The patient may not know what the charges are, but the insurance company does.
 
What is really needed is a catastrophic care package that covers everyone, but doesn't pay 100%. You have a good point that the patient not knowing what the costs are may be a factor.


There is a problem with that. Most that find themeselves in a medically catastrophic situation are not able to earn an income. Much less who would hire someone who has 3, 4 or 7 dr appointments a month?
 
When an insurance company denies a procedure is that not rationing, if not what do you call it?

well it is a form of rationing, but look at the decision being made and the recourse's available. If the Insurance Company denies a procedure that they are contractually obligated to pay for, they are liable, and we have the court system to fix such decisions on their part. Not only will you get your procedure, but you will get a nice house in the bahamas and a trophy wife to take care of you there. If the Government denies a procedure, well, isn't it interesting, according to the written law of the ACA, the IPAB is immune from legal suit.

now gee wiz, why would they go and write in something like that?
 
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well it is a form of rationing, but look at the decision being made and the recourse's available. If the Insurance Company denies a procedure that they are contractually obligated to pay for, they are liable, and we have the court system to fix such decisions on their part. Not only will you get your procedure, but you will get a nice house in the bahamas and a trophy wife to take care of you there. If the Government denies a procedure, well, isn't it interesting, according to the written law of the ACA, the IPAB is immune from legal suit.

now gee wiz, why would they go and write in something like that?

Just a guess

They don't want to pay for a house in the Bahamas or a trophy wife?
 
well it is a form of rationing, but look at the decision being made and the recourse's available. If the Insurance Company denies a procedure that they are contractually obligated to pay for, they are liable, and we have the court system to fix such decisions on their part. Not only will you get your procedure, but you will get a nice house in the bahamas and a trophy wife to take care of you there. If the Government denies a procedure, well, isn't it interesting, according to the written law of the ACA, the IPAB is immune from legal suit.

now gee wiz, why would they go and write in something like that?

ACA = American Cornhole Association ? :2razz:
Corn Toss, Cornhole, Bean Bag and Bean Toss - Rules, Sets and Standards
 
well it is a form of rationing, but look at the decision being made and the recourse's available. If the Insurance Company denies a procedure that they are contractually obligated to pay for, they are liable, and we have the court system to fix such decisions on their part. Not only will you get your procedure, but you will get a nice house in the bahamas and a trophy wife to take care of you there. If the Government denies a procedure, well, isn't it interesting, according to the written law of the ACA, the IPAB is immune from legal suit.

now gee wiz, why would they go and write in something like that?

Assuming you live long enough for the rewards of being dicked around.
 
Is it because of widespread obesity? Alcohol consumption? an aging population? outrageous malpractice suits? all of the above?

Check it out here:

Now, how can we bring those costs under control?

Hmm, because we are a capitalist nation.
 
Assuming you live long enough for the rewards of being dicked around.

that is true - otherwise it will be your survivors. The difference of course is that in a privatized system you have a chance to live that long - in a public system you do not.
 
Just a guess

They don't want to pay for a house in the Bahamas or a trophy wife?

:) Or any healthcare beyond the point at which they determine you to no longer be cost-effective. but yes, generally, got it in one :).
 
There is a problem with that. Most that find themeselves in a medically catastrophic situation are not able to earn an income. Much less who would hire someone who has 3, 4 or 7 dr appointments a month?

No one, currently. The health insurer would raise the employer's rates if he did hire such a person.

So, when there is a medical catastrophe, the person involved loses his job, loses his medical insurance that is tied to the job, loses his savings and home, then dies.

What a great system.
 
No one, currently. The health insurer would raise the employer's rates if he did hire such a person.

So, when there is a medical catastrophe, the person involved loses his job, loses his medical insurance that is tied to the job, loses his savings and home, then dies.

What a great system.


Welcome to my world
 
I actually went out today and got some work on this sort of stuff, let me read it through and I'll digest and see what we got - I haven't forgotten I told you I would see what was out there.
 
Do you look at your electric bill, your gas bill, your other bills? To many people are like you they don't look at their billing they just pay pay pay why because they don't have to pay directly for health care, I was billed for doctors visits, ex-rays and other services that were not performed, I challenged the billing and had those charges removed. I think health insurance is too expernsive but the insurance companies have no way to know if the health care billing is accurate or not if we don't check it

My wife was once billed $800 for "bed pan rental" for just one night. There was no bedpan in the room. We argued the case, the hospital immediately removed the charge.

I was billed about the same amount for an xray that came out blank due to an error on the part of the xray tec. They had to re-do the xray and I was billed again. Again, I objected to being charged twice for only one good xray and they removed the extra charge.

My wife was billed by a doctor who was located in a different city for "reading" her xray. When we inquired about it, they claimed that it was digitally transmitted to them and they evaluated it. I explained that the PA looked at it on the spot and refered her to an orthopedic specialist and I asked the out of state company who authorized them to perform this service, they said it was a standing contract with the hospital. I told them that if they could prove in court that they had performed any service that had any value, or if they had advised my wifes orthopedic doctor about her case that I would be more than glad to pay it. We never heard from that doctor again.

If we had "good" insurance, I would have never given a second thought to any of those bogus charges. Which is exactly why they create bogus invoices - they know that most people don't care.
 
Since we don't want to prohibit personal choice when it come to food, drink and tobacco the obvious way to impact poor health choices is to have people pay upfront for consuming items that will have an adverse effect on their health, the simplist way is to place a sin tax on choices that lead to health problems. 20% on alcohol and tobacco, 10% on all other junk foods and beverages.

That does make sense on alcohol and tobacco, and we already do that, but who is to define "junk food"?

A #1 value meal at McD's consists of essentially a roll, a very small serving of steak, a potato, and some salad with dressing. So would we have a sin tax on steaks, potatos, bread, and salads?

What if I made twinkees at home? Would I have to pay a tax on homemade junk food?

Sometimes the what would seem like the most sensable ideas arn't really sensable because they aren't pratical.
 
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