Socialized health care exposed.

So, emergency rooms are finally empty in Canada. Usually you wait 8 hours, unless you're dying, then they definitely take care of you well (no sarcasm here, it's true).

So, there are two ways to look at this. Either most people who go to emergency in Canada on a daily basis are not in an emergency at all, which means they don't have their own doctor (fail), or they lie and take advantage of the system (fail) or the solution to this current Covid crisis is causing real emergency procedures to be overlooked, postponed, causing untold future problems (an even bigger fail).

If you think it's a conspiracy theory to question where in ta hell all the people who usually visit the emergency room are and if they are in trouble due to draconian gov't measures, then you must believe all of them are hypochondriacs and liars.

Of course you can't really sue the Canadian gov't, so even if it turns out that the fear or inability to visit the emergency room caused your loved one to die, many many loved ones to die, in a single payer system like ours, you're out of luck.

At least we don't have a point system like the UK where you go to the back of the line depending on what sex or race you are, at least during Covid. Sheesh.

And yes, it is my position that the current rules, at least here in Ontario, are causing so much apprehension and fear that they will end up causing more death than the covid virus ever could, and I'm not even including suicide, homicide or anything like that, only people not going to get taken care of for real emergencies or elective procedures that could save their life. A 6 month further wait for heart or cancer procedures could be the difference between life and death.

Trypt said:

So, emergency rooms are finally empty in Canada. Usually you wait 8 hours, unless you're dying, then they definitely take care of you well (no sarcasm here, it's true).

So, there are two ways to look at this. Either most people who go to emergency in Canada on a daily basis are not in an emergency at all, which means they don't have their own doctor (fail), or they lie and take advantage of the system (fail) or the solution to this current Covid crisis is causing real emergency procedures to be overlooked, postponed, causing untold future problems (an even bigger fail).

If you think it's a conspiracy theory to question where in ta hell all the people who usually visit the emergency room are and if they are in trouble due to draconian gov't measures, then you must believe all of them are hypochondriacs and liars.

Of course you can't really sue the Canadian gov't, so even if it turns out that the fear or inability to visit the emergency room caused your loved one to die, many many loved ones to die, in a single payer system like ours, you're out of luck.

At least we don't have a point system like the UK where you go to the back of the line depending on what sex or race you are, at least during Covid. Sheesh.

And yes, it is my position that the current rules, at least here in Ontario, are causing so much apprehension and fear that they will end up causing more death than the covid virus ever could, and I'm not even including suicide, homicide or anything like that, only people not going to get taken care of for real emergencies or elective procedures that could save their life. A 6 month further wait for heart or cancer procedures could be the difference between life and death.

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I can't believe you can't sue. What about malpractice? Negligence?

Don't get me wrong, you can actually sue, but you have better luck winning the jackpot in the national lottery than ever winning. Not to mention that there are many ways they discourage you, including insanely high fees for starting the lawsuit itself, which no law firm will do as they know their chances of winning. The CMPA has very deep pockets and you ain't getting anywhere unless you have a video of the doctor saying he wants you sick (in other words, you're not getting anywhere ever).

Medical care in Canada is substandard, not to mention that almost all of our medicine and tech relies on US creativity and innovation. When you add to the fact that doctors have no fear of financial penalties or social penalties, it's a recipe for disaster.

Covid exposed this to a bigger degree, but it's always been there.

I've been to visit family in a US hospital, the way nurses and doctors treat you in the US is night and day compared to here. You're just a number here and you can be dying from pain and unless the ticker says it's time, you ain't getting ****. Every nurse is so afraid to go anywhere outside the guidelines, which are the same for everyone, that you're out of luck. This is of course a paradox as they are highly protected and it takes a lot to get them in trouble, yet they hold on to that guidebook like a bible, and it comes from the college of physicians, a gov't agency, a bunch of ex doctor bureaucrats telling doctors how to treat patients.

You may as well just have AI and be done with it, why even have doctors, just have a nurse type in the symptoms into a computer and do what it spits out, very little difference.

Trypt said:

Don't get me wrong, you can actually sue, but you have better luck winning the jackpot in the national lottery than ever winning. Not to mention that there are many ways they discourage you, including insanely high fees for starting the lawsuit itself, which no law firm will do as they know their chances of winning. The CMPA has very deep pockets and you ain't getting anywhere unless you have a video of the doctor saying he wants you sick (in other words, you're not getting anywhere ever).

Medical care in Canada is substandard, not to mention that almost all of our medicine and tech relies on US creativity and innovation. When you add to the fact that doctors have no fear of financial penalties or social penalties, it's a recipe for disaster.

Covid exposed this to a bigger degree, but it's always been there.

I've been to visit family in a US hospital, the way nurses and doctors treat you in the US is night and day compared to here. You're just a number here and you can be dying from pain and unless the ticker says it's time, you ain't getting ****. Every nurse is so afraid to go anywhere outside the guidelines, which are the same for everyone, that you're out of luck. This is of course a paradox as they are highly protected and it takes a lot to get them in trouble, yet they hold on to that guidebook like a bible, and it comes from the college of physicians, a gov't agency, a bunch of ex doctor bureaucrats telling doctors how to treat patients.

You may as well just have AI and be done with it, why even have doctors, just have a nurse type in the symptoms into a computer and do what it spits out, very little difference.

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In America if you don't have money or insurance you can wait until you are dead

vegas giants said:

In America if you don't have money or insurance you can wait until you are dead

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No you can't because legally the healthcare system has to treat you regardless of ability to pay.

In fact.. you cannot even prioritize a patient based on ability to pay.. only based on seriousness of the health problem... imminent death being the highest priority.

jaeger19 said:

No you can't because legally the healthcare system has to treat you regardless of ability to pay.

In fact.. you cannot even prioritize a patient based on ability to pay.. only based on seriousness of the health problem... imminent death being the highest priority.

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Of course you can. Patients without insurance or money go on the county wait list to die. You are only talking about emergencies

vegas giants said:

Of course you can. Patients without insurance or money go on the county wait list to die. You are only talking about emergencies

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If you are about to die...isn't that an emergency? Waiting to die is an emergency. (unless you are on hospice.. which means you are forgoing lifesaving medical care).

jaeger19 said:

If you are about to die...isn't that an emergency? Waiting to die is an emergency. (unless you are on hospice.. which means you are forgoing lifesaving medical care).

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You have a chronic condition and it will not be treated. It may kill you. And if you need knee surgery you may lose your job and all your money because you cant work waiting for an operation

vegas giants said:

You have a chronic condition and it will not be treated. It may kill you. And if you need knee surgery you may lose your job and all your money because you cant work waiting for an operation

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Sure.. you have a chronic treatment and its not treated. If it starts to kill you.. you will be treated.

And if you need knee surgery for which you can't work.. you aren't going to be working after knee surgery.. insurance or not..

IF you need knee surgery and can't work.. you can apply and get disability (as long as you have worked enough to qualify for SSI)..
If your income drops because you need knee surgery and you lose your job.. you will get unemployment for a while.. and you will also qualify for welfare.. and will eventually qualify for Medicaid.. and then on Medicaid you have your surgery.

Not having everyone have insurance has its issues certainly... but this idea that you are lying in the gutter dying while going bankrupt is not one of them.

The hyperbole on both sides of this issue is not helping the discussion.

jaeger19 said:

Sure.. you have a chronic treatment and its not treated. If it starts to kill you.. you will be treated.

And if you need knee surgery for which you can't work.. you aren't going to be working after knee surgery.. insurance or not..

IF you need knee surgery and can't work.. you can apply and get disability (as long as you have worked enough to qualify for SSI)..

Not having everyone have insurance has its issues certainly... but this idea that you are lying in the gutter dying while going bankrupt is not one of them.

Hyperbole on both side of this issue is not helping the discussion.

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I think you would agree it's better to have insurance than not have it.


Time for universal coverage. I like the Canadian model with a few tweaks

jaeger19 said:

No you can't because legally the healthcare system has to treat you regardless of ability to pay.

In fact.. you cannot even prioritize a patient based on ability to pay.. only based on seriousness of the health problem... imminent death being the highest priority.

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Hospitals are only required to stabilize you, not cure you. That six month wait you complained about for major procedures? That happens in the US too. If you can't afford it, they aren't obligated to perform it.

In Canada, the system legally has to treat you also.

Deuce said:

Hospitals are only required to stabilize you, not cure you. .

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Except that for many conditions.. to stabilize you. they have to cure you. If you snap your femur and need a femoral rod to be "stabile".. you are getting your surgery for femoral rod.

That six month wait you complained about for major procedures?

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I actually didn't say anything about wait times. That must be another poster. However.. the us actually scores much higher than Canada on timeliness of care. A six month wait time here is largely because the surgeon of choice.. is that busy. If they want to go to another surgeon.. then usually there isn't that wait time.

If you can't afford it, they aren't obligated to perform it.

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They are if its necessary for you to be medically stable.

The point is..that its largely a myth that people that cannot pay.. end up lying the street dying.. as many want to claim. That people are getting bankrupted by medical bills is also pretty much a myth.

We have pretty good safety nets. Someone that has a condition that they cannot work.. well if they have no income due to this.. then they qualify for Medicaid.. and if they were working they probably qualify for social security disability and then medicare.

Now.. this system is not very efficient.. and it costs the taxpayer more because folks that could be working if they could get surgery.. end up on disability for the rest of their lives at taxpayer expense.. which often costs a lot more than having surgery.

Not to mention all sorts of other costs of not having everyone covered under insurance.

However..like I said.. the dying in the street going bankrupt is largely a myth.

In Canada, the system legally has to treat you also.

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so? Never claimed it didn't. But the same thing that you claim happens in the US.. happens in Canada.. for example.. folks that don't have coverage for pharmaceuticals in Canada (Canadian government insurance doesn't cover outpatient medicines).. also suffer from chronic conditions and illnesses because the medical system doesn't have to provide medicines if you can't pay.

jaeger19 said:

Except that for many conditions.. to stabilize you. they have to cure you. If you snap your femur and need a femoral rod to be "stabile".. you are getting your surgery for femoral rod.

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Sometimes, sure. Cancer? Nope. You're stable until your organs start failing.

I actually didn't say anything about wait times. That must be another poster. However.. the us actually scores much higher than Canada on timeliness of care. A six month wait time here is largely because the surgeon of choice.. is that busy. If they want to go to another surgeon.. then usually there isn't that wait time.

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We do better than Canada. And worse than just about everybody else.

They are if its necessary for you to be medically stable.

The point is..that its largely a myth that people that cannot pay.. end up lying the street dying.. as many want to claim.

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No, that's not the claim. You're inflating the claim and attacking the straw man you built.
People do delay or forego treatment due to inability to pay and this absolutely does make some conditions get worse, and lowers quality of life.

That people are getting bankrupted by medical bills is also pretty much a myth.

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****ing laughably wrong. Medical bills are literally the most common cause of bankruptcy and we are the only nation in the world where this is the case.

We do better than Canada. And worse than just about everybody else.

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You may do worse than some tiny white ethno-states in Europe where neighbours all look like each other and don't mind paying taxes to help each other, but compared to most of the world, US healthcare is the envy of all.

But even compared to those white ethnostates that the left loves so much to emulate, the US is far superior in tech and innovation. Not to mention that if it wasn't for the US funding NATO, who knows if those countries would even exist today.

Trypt said:

You may do worse than some tiny white ethno-states in Europe where neighbours all look like each other and don't mind paying taxes to help each other, but compared to most of the world, US healthcare is the envy of all.

But even compared to those white ethnostates that the left loves so much to emulate, the US is far superior in tech and innovation. Not to mention that if it wasn't for the US funding NATO, who knows if those countries would even exist today.

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Only in America can you be bankrupted just because you get sick.


Only in America can you wait years for treatment because you can not afford it

Deuce said:

Sometimes, sure. Cancer? Nope. You're stable until your organs start failing.
.[/I]

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Yep.. but if you have cancer.. and can't work then you apply for Medicaid.. and apply for medicare… and then you have treatment.

We do better than Canada. And worse than just about everybody else.

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Actually no.. we score in the top three on timeliness and we that without having everyone covered.

No, that's not the claim. You're inflating the claim and attacking the straw man you built.

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Umm no.. that was the claim..

I

vegas said:

n America if you don't have money or insurance you can wait until you are dead

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People do delay or forego treatment due to inability to pay and this absolutely does make some conditions get worse, and lowers quality of life

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Sure.. never argued that it didn't happen. People do the same in other countries.. including Canada.. and France.. and other countries with government single payer.

****ing laughably wrong. Medical bills are literally the most common cause of bankruptcy and we are the only nation in the world where this is the case.

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Nope.. I am completely correct. There is multiple studies that debunk your premise.. here is just a collection of a few.

You are being redirected...

vegas giants said:

Only in America can you be bankrupted just because you get sick.


Only in America can you wait years for treatment because you can not afford it

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Let see.. wrong.

and wrong.

jaeger19 said:

No you can't because legally the healthcare system has to treat you regardless of ability to pay.

In fact.. you cannot even prioritize a patient based on ability to pay.. only based on seriousness of the health problem... imminent death being the highest priority.

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And if you're poor, that bill will follow you around all your life ruining any credit you may have had. You forgot to mention that part.

jaeger19 said:

Let see.. wrong.

and wrong.

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You are factually incorrect. Again

bongsaway said:

And if you're poor, that bill will follow you around all your life ruining any credit you may have had. You forgot to mention that part.

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Well..if you are really poor... the bill gets forgiven.. because it costs to collect.. and if you aren't going to collect.. there is no sense throwing good money after bad.

IF are not that poor.. you have a job.. then you are going to have to pay on the bill..and as long as you keep up with payments.. your credit is not hurt, its actually helped..

You forgot that part. The medical facility is more interesting in getting something in payment.. versus nothing.. which is what some folks do.. get care and then skip out.

vegas giants said:

You are factually incorrect. Again

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Nope..

Survey research commissioned by the Canadian government found that despite having a government-run health system, medical reasons (including uninsured expenses), were cited as the primary cause of bankruptcy by approximately 15 percent of bankrupt Canadian seniors (55 years of age and older).

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You are being redirected...

I waited 5 YEARS for an ankle replacement and have been waiting 2 1/2 YEARS for a hip!!! T

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In the comments:

Canada’s medical wait times continue to creep up: Study | Toronto Sun

Facts are not your friend Vegas.

Trypt said:

So, there are two ways to look at this. Either most people who go to emergency in Canada on a daily basis are not in an emergency at all, which means they don't have their own doctor (fail), or they lie and take advantage of the system (fail) or the solution to this current Covid crisis is causing real emergency procedures to be overlooked, postponed, causing untold future problems (an even bigger fail).

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It's mostly that people aren't going.

Because of stay-in-place orders, there are fewer other accidents. Few sports injuries, few motor vehicle accidents, fewer injuries overall.

People are overreacting, and are reluctant to go to ERs, even when they should.

By the way, under ordinary times, when the hospital doesn't have enough beds, patients wind up in ER berths anyway. Canada's health care system is better than some other places we can mention, but it still isn't funded as well as it should be.
Why emergency departments look empty amid COVID-19 outbreak | CBC News
Overcrowding in Canadian emergency departments - Healthy Debate

Hospitals aren't telling people to stay away. It has nothing to do with any rules. If you're seriously ill, you should definitely go to a hospital. It's mostly that people are afraid of going to a hospital right now.

And it should be clear that the situation in the US is worse than in Canada. You have people staying away not only because they're afraid of getting exposed to COVID-19 if they go to the hospital, they're also worried that a trip to the ER will sock them with a 5-figure bill -- or worse. Remember, 15% of Americans don't have any health insurance or coverage. To make matters worse, most people have health care coverage through their jobs, and with unemployment soaring, that's going to dramatically increase the number of people without coverage, and on the hook for big medical bills when they don't have much (if any) income.

I might add, I've been to an ER in the US on a Friday night, and it's pretty awful. Lots and lots and lots of waiting, people stacked like cattle... And the bill afterwards was not much fun either, even with insurance.

Healthcare Wait Times by Country - Carevoyance

Waiting to actually get to see the doctor is one obstacle, and it varies based on region. For example, in 2018 in Boston, patients waited an average of sixty-six days to see their primary care physician.

Next comes the challenge of actually being seen by a physician, at or near your designated appointment time:

It takes most patients an average of twenty-four days to schedule a first-time appointment with a doctor in America. Furthermore, in five different surveys, it was found that patients waited thirty percent longer to be seen by a provider in 2016 than they did in 2014.
https://www.carevoyance.com/blog/healthcare-wait-times-by-country

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jaeger19 said:

Nope..



You are being redirected...



In the comments:

Canada’s medical wait times continue to creep up: Study | Toronto Sun

Facts are not your friend Vegas.

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In the US people wait till they die.


Friends and facts. Lol

jaeger19 said:

Well..if you are really poor... the bill gets forgiven.. because it costs to collect.. and if you aren't going to collect.. there is no sense throwing good money after bad.

IF are not that poor.. you have a job.. then you are going to have to pay on the bill..and as long as you keep up with payments.. your credit is not hurt, its actually helped..

You forgot that part. The medical facility is more interesting in getting something in payment.. versus nothing.. which is what some folks do.. get care and then skip out.

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They will bleed you dry the rest of your life.


Only in America!!!!