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Irrational rise in Healthcare Costs

code1211 said:
I recently moved and came across the bills and payment receipts saved by my mother for the costs related to my Birth in 1953. Unpacking boxes is a little like archeology.

My birth was pretty unremarkable. No problems to overcome or excessive length of stay in the hospital.

Total cost: $197.20 which included all of the nursing, room charges, doctors and any care, food or drugs needed. Total billing extended across 5 days.

According to WebMD, that cost today would be about $9600.00.

The increase from $197.20 to $9600.00 is a pretty big jump. $197.20 in 1953 was only 2% of the costs incurred on average today. 2%! stated the other way around, the current price is 4,868% of the 1953 price.

Let's compare this to the cost of new car.

In 1953, you could buy a new Lincoln off the showroom floor for about $3550.00. At the same increase in cost as the healthcare increase, that Lincoln would be $177, 500.00.

A 2020 showroom price of a new Lincoln starts at $46,305. Actual increase is 1,304% of the 1953 pricing. 1953 cost is is about 7.6% of this.

The median "Family Income" in 1953 was about $4200.00 in 1953. In 2019, the Median "Household Income" was around $63,378: An increase of about 1,509%. 1953 level was about 6.6% of this.

The cost of healthcare in this one area seems to have suffered outrageous inflation. The outrageous increase in the cost of healthcare could be one of the issues impacting the cost of healthcare insurance.

Of course, I could be wrong...

How Much Does It Cost to Have a Baby? Hospital Costs, Baby Supplies, and More

2020 Lincoln(R) Continental | Midsize Luxury Sedan | Lincoln.com

1950s Cars - Lincoln
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Yeah, and if you got sick back then they pretty much sent you home to die. You really want to return to an early 1950's level of medical care?
 
Waddy said:
Yeah, and if you got sick back then they pretty much sent you home to die. You really want to return to an early 1950's level of medical care?
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And in the 50's, your car didn't let you know that your keys were still in the ignition. Better gas mileage, longer useful lives of cars, less rusting of the bodies, longer periods between oil changes.

Cars are better, dramatically so, in every measurable way, by any metric you care to cite.

However, the rise in the cost of healthcare is rising at a rate 4 times that of cars, houses, incomes or anything else I can think of.

EVERYTHING has improved dramatically across time.

The question is not in regard to the increased value. The question is why does the increased value in all things shows up to be increased cost so dramatically higher in healthcare over all other things?
 
code1211 said:
And in the 50's, your car didn't let you know that your keys were still in the ignition. Better gas mileage, longer useful lives of cars, less rusting of the bodies, longer periods between oil changes.

Cars are better, dramatically so, in every measurable way, by any metric you care to cite.

However, the rise in the cost of healthcare is rising at a rate 4 times that of cars, houses, incomes or anything else I can think of.

EVERYTHING has improved dramatically across time.

The question is not in regard to the increased value. The question is why does the increased value in all things shows up to be increased cost so dramatically higher in healthcare over all other things?
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Because those costs went up faster than your car. You car didn't need to go to medical school.
 
Waddy said:
Because those costs went up faster than your car. You car didn't need to go to medical school.
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That's about as nonsensical a statement as I have ever read here or anywhere.

As I understand it, doctors were educated in medical schools in the 50's as well.
 
code1211 said:
My point about getting a Ford or a Bentley is pretty accurate.

I have a given amount of money and buy a car that will serve my needs plus a small share of luxury, and select a car from that universe of choices that are in my price range.

When I am suffering pain and go to a hospital, I seek relief of the pain and the treatment is purchased based ONLY on getting relief from the pain.

I am never offered the Ford or the Bentley solution. I am told what the issue is and what the treatment should be to correct it. When I had a sigmoid colectomy, my choice was to get it or to die.

As it happened, choosing to not die also included absolutely top shelf treatment, private room, a good recovery period and continued life. That is, a Bentley.

I should think that a Ford would have been life, a bed in a ward, a shorter in-hospital stay and maybe no TV. There were only 6 channels on the TV, but with the Morphine, I wasn't really aware of the limited selection until the second day. ;)

Regarding the lower negotiated price, that cost used to be referred to by the insurance companies as costs that were "normal and usual".

Why are these costs "normal and usual" for some folks, but not others? It's like the two guys in the commercial that are paying different rates for the same hotel room.

I just don't understand that part of the healthcare pricing.
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Because you didn''t get the Bentley. You got the Ford. Which is what the insurance company pays for.. necessary and customary.

The costs are "normal and usual"..for some folks and others because... 1. Different hospitals and areas have different costs...

2. Insurace companies differ on what they consider normal and usual.
 
code1211 said:
And in the 50's, your car didn't let you know that your keys were still in the ignition. Better gas mileage, longer useful lives of cars, less rusting of the bodies, longer periods between oil changes.

Cars are better, dramatically so, in every measurable way, by any metric you care to cite.

However, the rise in the cost of healthcare is rising at a rate 4 times that of cars, houses, incomes or anything else I can think of.

EVERYTHING has improved dramatically across time.

The question is not in regard to the increased value. The question is why does the increased value in all things shows up to be increased cost so dramatically higher in healthcare over all other things?
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Where was your car made? Where did those car parts come from? Bet dollars to donuts a good portion of your car was made from parts from other countries where the cost of production is dramatically lower than in the US.

Inflation has been low for most things in America because production can be outsourced.

Healthcare.. is one of the few things that has a difficult time being outsourced. So.. the reasons that healthcare has increased more than other goods.

1. Its not easy to outsource to cheaper labor like other products
2. Its not easy to automate like other products
3. The cost of education is very high.. and healthcare requires lots of education
4. Demand for services have skyrocketed with the baby boomers aging
5. More supply in the medical field.. requires much greater inefficiency..which leads to higher prices. (think about the current ventilator issue). Hospitals generally don't need that many ventilators but keep some on hand..even though they are rarely used. That has a cost that gets spread out to you when you had your surgery.. just in case you needed one post surgery. That capacity has a cost.

Which most other services and companies.. don't have..
 
jaeger19 said:
Because you didn''t get the Bentley. You got the Ford. Which is what the insurance company pays for.. necessary and customary.

The costs are "normal and usual"..for some folks and others because... 1. Different hospitals and areas have different costs...

2. Insurace companies differ on what they consider normal and usual.
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For my needs, the Ford has worked out pretty well. I have a Ford in my garage that runs well and is dependable. It's not even the top of the line Ford.

I've had surgeries, one was major, and I'm still alive. Without the surgery, I'd be dead.

I think if I was Bill Gates, there would have been more attentive care and perhaps at home care following my discharge. Like the rich old guys in the movies about huge inheritances.

All of that aside, though, the cost of most things has increased at rates that seem to be about consistent with each other.

Medical coasts seem to have increased at rates that are about 4 times as great.

The phone I own today and the phone service it provides beat the crap out of the phone my parents had in their home in 1953.

The cars are better. Phones are better. TV's are better. Everything is better. Our stuff today does stuff that nobody ever dreamed could be done in 1953. My phone beats the crap out of Captain Kirk's hand held communicator.

Did he really need that squelch dial?

Everything got better. So did medical care. Why did medical care cost increase so dramatically more than everything else?
 
jaeger19 said:
Where was your car made? Where did those car parts come from? Bet dollars to donuts a good portion of your car was made from parts from other countries where the cost of production is dramatically lower than in the US.

Inflation has been low for most things in America because production can be outsourced.

Healthcare.. is one of the few things that has a difficult time being outsourced. So.. the reasons that healthcare has increased more than other goods.

1. Its not easy to outsource to cheaper labor like other products
2. Its not easy to automate like other products
3. The cost of education is very high.. and healthcare requires lots of education
4. Demand for services have skyrocketed with the baby boomers aging
5. More supply in the medical field.. requires much greater inefficiency..which leads to higher prices. (think about the current ventilator issue). Hospitals generally don't need that many ventilators but keep some on hand..even though they are rarely used. That has a cost that gets spread out to you when you had your surgery.. just in case you needed one post surgery. That capacity has a cost.

Which most other services and companies.. don't have..
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With respect, ALL other industries have additional costs and EFFICIENCIES not present in 1953. My doctor has a lap top with him at all times that shows my records and allows changes to update in real time across his whole system.

The added equipment is there to enhance efficiency.

I recall the dentist from my childhood. The dentist did the teeth and his wife did the books. Now the Dentist does some things and he has Dental assistants and Dental hygienists, a receptionist and an office manager to do most of the work.

In my doctor's office, the same is true. There are two doctors and about 20 other people. The doctor spends about 15 minutes tops with me when I go there once each year. 8 Hours, times four patients equals about 32 patients per day.

House calls? RU Kidding?

Just about everything in his office and everything the people wear and most of the drugs prescribed are made in China.

Education costs are in the same category as medical costs. I attended a Branch Campus of the University of Minnesota in 1971. First Quarter Tuition was $132.00 for a Full Time Credit Load. X3= $396. Current tuition there is $13,681/year.

WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT!

Regarding the special equipment in use right now that didn't exist in 1953: When I back up and there's something behind me, the car sounds an alarm if I get too close. Forget where I parked? My phone leads me to my car.

All services and companies have new features and better equipment and more of it. Sign for a package and you're tracing you finger on a glass screen that automatically updates inventories and delivery records.
 
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code1211 said:
With respect, ALL other industries have additional costs and EFFICIENCIES not present in 1953. My doctor has a lap top with him at all times that shows my records and allows changes to update in real time across his whole system.
.
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Yep.. and that laptop is really cheap.. that doctors education wasn't. And that education has been increasing. College costs have been rising 3 x the cost of inflation.

Now the Dentist does some things and he has Dental assistants and Dental hygienists, a receptionist and an office manager to do most of the work.
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And all those folks get paid right? So that means that you pay for that with your bill.

Just about everything in his office and everything the people wear and most of the drugs prescribed are made in China.
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Yeah.. I doubt that all of the expensive medical machines are made in china.. but.. one of the major expenses in that office is education.

Tuition alone for a 2 year dental hygienist's education is about 23,000. That's not counting books, supplies and living expenses while going to school.

The facts remain:

. Its not easy to outsource to cheaper labor like other products
2. Its not easy to automate like other products
3. The cost of education is very high.. and healthcare requires lots of education
4. Demand for services have skyrocketed with the baby boomers aging
5. More supply in the medical field.. requires much greater inefficiency..which leads to higher prices. (think about the current ventilator issue). Hospitals generally don't need that many ventilators but keep some on hand..even though they are rarely used. That has a cost that gets spread out to you when you had your surgery.. just in case you needed one post surgery. That capacity has a cost
Click to expand...
 
jaeger19 said:
Yep.. and that laptop is really cheap.. that doctors education wasn't. And that education has been increasing. College costs have been rising 3 x the cost of inflation.

And all those folks get paid right? So that means that you pay for that with your bill.

Yeah.. I doubt that all of the expensive medical machines are made in china.. but.. one of the major expenses in that office is education.

Tuition alone for a 2 year dental hygienist's education is about 23,000. That's not counting books, supplies and living expenses while going to school.

The facts remain:
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Don't you just hate it when a poster edits your words for no other reason than to change the meaning and then presents them as if they have not been changed?
 
code1211 said:
Don't you just hate it when a poster edits your words for no other reason than to change the meaning and then presents them as if they have not been changed?
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Nope.. never had that happen. I hate when posters divert the conversation from the discussion at hand... to something else because they don't have any logical response. It would be nice if they just said... "gee.. you make good points.. I never thought of that".
 
jaeger19 said:
Nope.. never had that happen. I hate when posters divert the conversation from the discussion at hand... to something else because they don't have any logical response. It would be nice if they just said... "gee.. you make good points.. I never thought of that".
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I wouldn't know if you made any good points or not.

As a matter of course, I don't even read posts in which the poster amputates parts of my post to which the response is made.
 
Medical insurance industry specializes in under insurance thus forcing people into bankruptcy.......

Be smart = if all one can afford is under insurance don't buy any. By the time the deducible is paid the policy basically useless.

Put that monthly premium in a savings account then pay as you go it's far more efficient. It payment on demand is acceptable some clinics/doctors will offer reduced rates.

Is under insurance worth thousands of dollars annually? ......NO

Clinics keep insurance staff on the payroll to chase down the payments...... this ain't healthcare.
 
Razoo said:
Medical insurance industry specializes in under insurance thus forcing people into bankruptcy.......

Be smart = if all one can afford is under insurance don't buy any. By the time the deducible is paid the policy basically useless.

Put that monthly premium in a savings account then pay as you go it's far more efficient. It payment on demand is acceptable some clinics/doctors will offer reduced rates.

Is under insurance worth thousands of dollars annually? ......NO

Clinics keep insurance staff on the payroll to chase down the payments...... this ain't healthcare.
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This is absolutely positively not correct.

If all you can afford is an insurance with a high deductible. Definitely buy it... because these policies almost always have a stop loss.. or out of pocket max... which means that instead of being on the hook for 75000 dollars when you get in a wreck with your fourwheeler… you are on the hook for maybe 7500 or 10,000.

And you can make payments to pay it off. AND more importantly.. you are going to get better care.. because if you have NO insurance.. you are not going to get the therapies, the other things you may need for full recovery... because when a person has no insurance.. all they can get is the minimum to stabilize the patient.

What you are advocating is pure foolishness.
 
Could have something to do with the rise in healthcare administrators.
View attachment 67281290

Medicare and Medicaid were created in 1965 to make healthcare more affordable to those less able to afford it. Since 1970, the government has expanded its reach into healthcare with laws such as HIPAA, the HITECH act, and of course the affordable care act. At the state level, you also have certificate of need laws. Now obviously it will take some manpower in order to comply with all of those regulations. You also have a shortage of doctors which is not helped by the aging population or by the current pandemic. In 1910, the AMA managed to lobby congress into limiting the number of physicians per year at 100,000. 36 states restrict or prohibit midwifery from being used to deliver newborns.
The Evil-Mongering Of The American Medical Association
 
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