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Righties, what are you more offended by?

No it wouldn't. Say you make 60,000 (average middle class) and the first 36,000 is the standard deduction. No other deductions after that and a flat tax of say 15%.

They would pay 15% on 24,000.

Someone making 500,000 would pay 15% on 464,000. Please explain how the middle class is paying a higher percentage on their income in the above scenario.

I am not getting into that math. Fifteen percent of $400,00 is much higher than 15% of $40,000 not matter how you cut it. Rich people can afford to pay a higher percentage of their income than the the middle class for obvious reasons. They have no reason to want tax breaks except for their own selfish personal gain.
 
So you are good with telling other people what they need, what they should have, and demand they pay for everyone else?

So you see no other method than to load 200o pages of rules, regs and laws, without it being read first, without it's implications and impacts fully considered, in order to provide pre-existing insurance coverage?

Yes, there is something wrong with that, but I don't believe you would be inclined to consider it.

Try again with a ton of straw removed.
 
You can pull the 'only perfect man to ever live on Earth' out of the discussion. I am non-religious, and that has absolutely no involvement in this discussion.

Your coloration of the discussion in attempting to label anyone who doesn't give everything they have to other people as 'evil', is a poorly framed argument, even without the religious overtone. What I do or don't do has nothing to do with religion, or other people's perspective on what I should or should not do.

If someone wants that to be their guidance, they are welcome to it, but the fact that you attempt to paint your perspective on others, speaks very poorly of you, especially since you are the receiver, wanting the givers to give even more.

Our economic system is designed to steer most of the wealth of society into few hands - they are the 'takers' and the people are the 'givers'. If someone works and creates wealth for an owner greater than their income from it, they are 'giving' that owner wealth. If the owner lives in a society providing them that opportunity, they can support that society.
 
Our economic system is designed to steer most of the wealth of society into few hands - they are the 'takers' and the people are the 'givers'. If someone works and creates wealth for an owner greater than their income from it, they are 'giving' that owner wealth. If the owner lives in a society providing them that opportunity, they can support that society.

False.

Do the people who supply labor in any capacity, have monetary investment in the equipment, the facility, the insurances, the payroll of other people, supplies and/or COGs? Do they have the initial investment of time, creativity, and intangibles that the owner does?

If they were capable of these things, they would likely be an owner themselves. That investment has a value, which exceeds the value of the time a worker may provide. If what the worker provides increases the value of the product, they usually get a raise as compensation, or something of value (stocks, perhaps).

There is a symbiotic relationship. Without businesses, there are no workers. Without (most) workers, there would be no businesses.

For the compensation an owner receives, becomes taxable income, and they contribute to the societal pool. Depending on the corporate structure, the business may or may not pay federal taxes, state taxes, and other assorted methods of being taxed. Most entities pass through the majority of those taxes through to the pricing of their product.

Until the worker has as much investment in the business as the owner(s) do, they aren't giving anybody anything.
 
False.

Do the people who supply labor in any capacity, have monetary investment in the equipment, the facility, the insurances, the payroll of other people, supplies and/or COGs? Do they have the initial investment of time, creativity, and intangibles that the owner does?

If they were capable of these things, they would likely be an owner themselves. That investment has a value, which exceeds the value of the time a worker may provide. If what the worker provides increases the value of the product, they usually get a raise as compensation, or something of value (stocks, perhaps).

Actually, it's yor post that's false, in completely not understanding my post. And no one denies the owner deserves some wealth; you argue it's unlimited, that no amount is too much.

There is a symbiotic relationship. Without businesses, there are no workers. Without (most) workers, there would be no businesses.

For the compensation an owner receives, becomes taxable income, and they contribute to the societal pool. Depending on the corporate structure, the business may or may not pay federal taxes, state taxes, and other assorted methods of being taxed. Most entities pass through the majority of those taxes through to the pricing of their product.

Until the worker has as much investment in the business as the owner(s) do, they aren't giving anybody anything.

Clueless. Of course they are. Your argument is, if the owner captured a hundred *slaves* and put them to work, they are not giving any value to the owner, because they have less investment in the business. And your claim they're being taxed - that's a big part of the point, they USED to be taxed, and that has plummeted (the richest are now taxed at the lowest rate of anyone).
 
I am not getting into that math. Fifteen percent of $400,00 is much higher than 15% of $40,000 not matter how you cut it. Rich people can afford to pay a higher percentage of their income than the the middle class for obvious reasons. They have no reason to want tax breaks except for their own selfish personal gain.

Yeah.. you don;t want to get into the math because you don't like the fact it kills your argument.

Yes.. 15% of 400,000 is a LOT more money generated in taxes than 15% of 40,000.

And when you consider that in a flat tax with a 36,000 dollar standard deduction.. that EFFECTIVE tax rate on the poorer person is much lower.

Its interesting that you don;t see the disconnect here. YOU want other people to pay for you.. for your own personal gain..

while complaining that they are bad people.. for not wanting to take care of you.
 
No, not wanting to do the math has NOTHING to do with whether I am right or wrong. You just confirmed I am right about the 15 percent.

Why are you so hung up on me wanting you to pay for my personal gain knowing I NEVER SAID THAT? In fact you know I am talking about ALL poor people who need money from ALL rich people, no particular individuals.
 
Our economic system is designed to steer most of the wealth of society into few hands - they are the 'takers' and the people are the 'givers'. If someone works and creates wealth for an owner greater than their income from it, they are 'giving' that owner wealth. If the owner lives in a society providing them that opportunity, they can support that society.

Yeah.. except that people don't think about the hard work and risk by the person who owns the company.

I started my business.. and as an owner and employee.. I worked harder than ANY other employee that was with me. Because I did my employee job.. and then did all the work as an owner. AND I was the one that takes all the risk. It my retirement, house.. etc.. that was being risked. It was my collateral and future that the bank had on the line.

NONE of my employees took that risk.. and when the business was building... the employees other than me? They got paid.. come high times or low. ME? Sometimes, I didn;t make anything and had a lower salary than my employees despite working harder and more.

So there is nothing more irksome.. to hearing some employee NOW.. when they have no risk.. put forth no risk, no effort.. did NOTHING other than the job they were PAID to do.. and they think I "owe" them something.

Take any of those employees and say.. "gee. it was a bad month.. so I am not going to pay you.. just like I can't take a dividend... that okay with you.?"

Fat chance... people that complain about owners making more money.. want all of the reward without taking the risk or the work.
 
No, not wanting to do the math has NOTHING to do with whether I am right or wrong. You just confirmed I am right about the 15 percent.

Why are you so hung up on me wanting you to pay for my personal gain knowing I NEVER SAID THAT? In fact you know I am talking about ALL poor people who need money from ALL rich people, no particular individuals.

Sure it does. I just blew you out of the water when it comes to the 15%.

And I know you AREN"T talking about ALL poor people... because I was poor.. and I grew up lower class/lower middle class.. so I knew poor people.. and I still have tons of friends that are poor.. and they do NOT.. repeat do NOT feel as you do. Oh some do... but certainly not "ALL".

They do NOT.. think that because I am rich now.. that I owe them something. Oh some folks do.. no doubt. They are the ones usually that ARE in the place they are in financially because of their poor choices..

The ones that don;t complain that I owe them something? ARe the ones that generally are poor because of circumstance. They work hard.. they do what they can.. and they contribute to society in other ways other than just dollars.

Frankly.. I have no problem with that.. and I see value in them having a safety net.. and I see a value in me providing say free college education for them (I provide scholarships for deserving kids).. In the long run.. having safety nets and free college actually is an investment that comes back to me.

BUT? I owe people? because they chose to be jocks and not study? Because they choose tobacco and beer over getting their kid a computer for school or even a warm coat for the winter? Yeah.. no.
 
If you only think about not wanting to help the American people who need it just to keep your money to yourself, you are just being selfish and uncaring. There is no other possible reason to thiink rich people should not want to contribute to the greater good. That is not my opinion. It is a proven undeniable fact. Maybe you want to choose who you give your money to and for what cause. There is nothing wrong with that. But the idea you should never give anybody your money when you have millions of dollars you don't need (if you are that rich, of course) has no other explanation. So tell me this: Do you care at all about the old, poor, and disabled Americans who can't live without rich people's money because of circumstances totally out of their control?
 
If you only think about not wanting to help the American people who need it just to keep your money to yourself, you are just being selfish and uncaring. There is no other possible reason to thiink rich people should not want to contribute to the greater good. That is not my opinion. It is a proven undeniable fact. ?

BS... so according to you.. IF I am giving 37% of my income to help other people.

While you are giving NOTHING.. I am a bad person and uncaring because I don;t want to give 90%.. of my income to other people.

What a load of BS.

Who are you to tell me... "money you don;t need"? How do you determine how much I need? And how do you determine that based on the risks I take and have taken and the work I have done to make that money?

Do you care at all about the old, poor, and disabled Americans who can't live without rich people's money because of circumstances totally out of their control?

Do you? Because its already answered by me and every other rich person that supports Medicaid and medicare and the fact that republicans give more in charity than democrats do.
 
Actually, it's yor post that's false, in completely not understanding my post. And no one denies the owner deserves some wealth; you argue it's unlimited, that no amount is too much.



Clueless. Of course they are. Your argument is, if the owner captured a hundred *slaves* and put them to work, they are not giving any value to the owner, because they have less investment in the business. And your claim they're being taxed - that's a big part of the point, they USED to be taxed, and that has plummeted (the richest are now taxed at the lowest rate of anyone).

Dragging the absurd *slaves* in does not support your argument.

The 'rich' pay more dollar for dollar, for programs they most likely will never use. They invest in a number of societal pool programs that aren't even on the tax roles. Research groups, Hospital wings, foundations, libraries, assistance to disaster victims. Charitable activities that may or may not be tax friendly. Things you and I could only hope to donate to at the level the 'rich' do.

But for some, that's not enough.

Noblesse Oblige does have limits. People are not your piggy bank to raid for what you or I deem as important to ourselves, just because they have more than you or I. You want that, I would suggest you look into Communism and or Socialism and the success rates.
 
If you only think about not wanting to help the American people who need it just to keep your money to yourself, you are just being selfish and uncaring. There is no other possible reason to thiink rich people should not want to contribute to the greater good. That is not my opinion. It is a proven undeniable fact. Maybe you want to choose who you give your money to and for what cause. There is nothing wrong with that. But the idea you should never give anybody your money when you have millions of dollars you don't need (if you are that rich, of course) has no other explanation. So tell me this: Do you care at all about the old, poor, and disabled Americans who can't live without rich people's money because of circumstances totally out of their control?

YOU are being selfish and uncaring. You are judging what other people need or want, that they have either worked for or family members have worked for, taken chances and invested their money, their time, their effort, and for that, you demand (and you are demanding)that they give it away.

Do you know how much money I need? The ongoing expenses of living, taking care of my health? No, because I do it myself. If I were to give that money to 'you', then I don't have it to care for myself. The same applies to other people, who have more, or less money than me.

Because I won't give you my money, you call me uncaring. Do you know what I do for people with my time and labor? Nope, but you have the unmitigated gall to call me uncaring when you sit there and demand other people give away what you deem unnecessary in their lives.

Turn to your friends here who should be giving you all the money they don't need, not asking everybody to satisfy your wants. Talk to the people willing to pet you and provide for you, because you deem it 'necessary and caring'.
 
I did not say you have to give X amount of money to be a caring person. You repeatedly implied you don't want to give ANY of your money to the government that would direclty help poor and disabled people who NEED it.

Rich people don't need all of their money just to cover the cost of living. Poor people don't have enough money to survive without government assistance.

Um, being a poor and disabled woman who needs government assistance to live, I obviously do care about them. All of them, not just myself. The reason I don't give to charity is obvious: I don't have any money to donate. Do you really think people who can't live a single day without government funding are uncaring just because they don't give their small amounts of money to charities?
 
What makes you think I am personally asking you to give me money when I obviously said it is all rich people giving to all poor people that must happen?
 
Dragging the absurd *slaves* in does not support your argument.

It wasn't limited to that. It's an example. Woosh.

The 'rich' pay more dollar for dollar, for programs they most likely will never use. They invest in a number of societal pool programs that aren't even on the tax roles. Research groups, Hospital wings, foundations, libraries, assistance to disaster victims. Charitable activities that may or may not be tax friendly. Things you and I could only hope to donate to at the level the 'rich' do.

They don't pay more without taking a lot more from the society they are part of. That's how it works. If you prefer, we could end both all their taxes AND all thier rights and privileges and have everyone in poverty. But you prefer plutocracy.

But for some, that's not enough.

Noblesse Oblige does have limits. People are not your piggy bank to raid for what you or I deem as important to ourselves, just because they have more than you or I. You want that, I would suggest you look into Communism and or Socialism and the success rates.

That's laughable. Limits. Right now they're paying so much less than a fair share that we've run up a $23 trillion debt to let them pocket all that money instead of paying taxes to balance the budget. Sorry you disagree with the fundamental concept of the United States of things like taxes, opportunity, and democracy, but that's our system, and it's better than your plutocracy.

Saying today's wealthy are at the limits of giving is like saying trump is at the limit of volunteering at the soup kitchen. And then you mindlessly use the communism fallacy. Seriously, talking to you makes as much sense as talking to a three year old.
 
I’m offended by liberals that live in luxury not donating their money to the poor.

Same. This is why I support taxing the rich.
 
Yeah.. except that people don't think about the hard work and risk by the person who owns the company.

I started my business.. and as an owner and employee.. I worked harder than ANY other employee that was with me. Because I did my employee job.. and then did all the work as an owner. AND I was the one that takes all the risk. It my retirement, house.. etc.. that was being risked. It was my collateral and future that the bank had on the line.

NONE of my employees took that risk.. and when the business was building... the employees other than me? They got paid.. come high times or low. ME? Sometimes, I didn;t make anything and had a lower salary than my employees despite working harder and more.

So there is nothing more irksome.. to hearing some employee NOW.. when they have no risk.. put forth no risk, no effort.. did NOTHING other than the job they were PAID to do.. and they think I "owe" them something.

Take any of those employees and say.. "gee. it was a bad month.. so I am not going to pay you.. just like I can't take a dividend... that okay with you.?"

Fat chance... people that complain about owners making more money.. want all of the reward without taking the risk or the work.

Funny thing is, I agree almost entirely with the basic points you're making. You DO deserve some rights for doing the things you mention.

But, you're very confused, conflating your situation with every billionaire in the country - why, they're all slaving away earning every dollar they get as hard as you do. IMO, you are simply very biased because of your situation, and it warps your understanding and what makes sense for various roles.

Workers DO make a tradeoff that the owner who does the things you mention, takes most of the profits if things go well, while their compensation is both more limited to a fixed income, and more safe as guaranteed however the business does while it operates and they are employed. Those are the tradeoffs we accept.

The big business issues here have basically nothing to do with the situation you describe. CEO's who join a company that's rigged to give them massive incomes aren't very comparable to your situation, and how hard a person works doesn't continue to have the same merits for dollars earned as you go from thousands to millions to billions.

You sound like you 'deserve' every dollar you make. The CEO of a big company, maybe not nearly as much, but they rig the system. The Wall Street operative, perhaps even less so. The Walton heirs, even less. Yet you would apply your speech to all of them, wrongly.

I see this a lot from small business owners, who I actually have a lot of good to say about, when they identify themselves with and equate the billionaires, as if they're in the same group against those damn greedy workers. They're not. You have a lot more in common with the workers than with the Koch brothers.

Progressive policies, my policies, actually want to HELP such business creator like you, to see you get MORE for those efforts. You don't understand who the threats to your interests are.

Yes, you ARE expected, if you make a good amount of profit, to help pay for society's needs - but that's not who is really limiting your wealth. We should have a moderate amount of inequality, as we did before Reagan, not the extreme record amounts we have now, in which the few at the top not only get all the money and power, but are a threat to our democracy.
 
Same. This is why I support taxing the rich.

Something rich right-wing people don't or won't understand is that while they 'feel good' getting to 'pick' their charities, the government is a lot better and more fair in how they take taxes and provide for society's needs, and rich people writing some checks to specific charities can never BEGIN to meet that need. Taxes ARE charity, under good government, which is never Republican and too often hasn't been Democrats.
 
Poor people getting healthcare paid for by taxes, or Americans being killed by a lack of healthcare? You need to pick one.

Liberals! That is what they Hate, even though they cannot even define what a Liberal is. Meh ....
 
I did not say you have to give X amount of money to be a caring person. You repeatedly implied you don't want to give ANY of your money to the government that would direclty help poor and disabled people who NEED it.

If you are talking to me.. that a BALD FACE LIE.. and you should apologize.
 
Something rich right-wing people don't or won't understand is that while they 'feel good' getting to 'pick' their charities, the government is a lot better and more fair in how they take taxes and provide for society's needs, and rich people writing some checks to specific charities can never BEGIN to meet that need. Taxes ARE charity, under good government, which is never Republican and too often hasn't been Democrats.

Actually that's not true. Who do you think lobby's for welfare? You think its folks like Donkey? Or you think its poor people.. being invited to the Senators birthday party?

No..its wealthy people.. who are going to largely benefit from those welfare programs. So.. you can see billions of dollars.. that go to say..a welfare program.. that pays for upgrading windows.. roofs, and water heaters to be more energy efficient. And the rich owners of the rentals... send their renters down to apply for this program.. and sit back while the government pays for new water heaters, new roofs, new windows in THEIR RENTALS..

And then after the upgrades are in..they raise the rent and get wealthier renters.
 
Actually that's not true. Who do you think lobby's for welfare? You think its folks like Donkey? Or you think its poor people.. being invited to the Senators birthday party?

No..its wealthy people.. who are going to largely benefit from those welfare programs. So.. you can see billions of dollars.. that go to say..a welfare program.. that pays for upgrading windows.. roofs, and water heaters to be more energy efficient. And the rich owners of the rentals... send their renters down to apply for this program.. and sit back while the government pays for new water heaters, new roofs, new windows in THEIR RENTALS..

And then after the upgrades are in..they raise the rent and get wealthier renters.

That's complete nonsense. While some rich people are more humanitarian, broadly they support plutocracy - transferring as much wealth from the American people into their pockets as possible.
 
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