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Thread: US healthcare is a bad joke

  1. #11
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    Re: US healthcare is a bad joke

    The basic concept of universal (publicly funded) medical care (or anything else, for that matter) is that everyone will get the same level of goods/services but only those who make "too much" must pay the taxation required for the government to fund those goods/services. Obviously, having such a system means that one's income level determines their cost of medical care but has no bearing on the level of (subsidized) medical care that they will receive.

    As noted in the (first OP) video, UHC does not mean that there will be no additiponal out-of-pocket costs - co-pays (user fees?) may still be required either as a fixed amount or as a percentage of the cost of goods/services received. Having UHC also does not mean that everyone gets equal priority for receiving any publicly funded medical treatment - some may have to wait until (all?) others deemed to be in more urgent need of medical attention have been taken care of.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: US healthcare is a bad joke

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The basic concept of universal (publicly funded) medical care (or anything else, for that matter) is that everyone will get the same level of goods/services but only those who make "too much" must pay the taxation required for the government to fund those goods/services. Obviously, having such a system means that one's income level determines their cost of medical care but has no bearing on the level of (subsidized) medical care that they will receive.

    As noted in the (first OP) video, UHC does not mean that there will be no additiponal out-of-pocket costs - co-pays (user fees?) may still be required either as a fixed amount or as a percentage of the cost of goods/services received. Having UHC also does not mean that everyone gets equal priority for receiving any publicly funded medical treatment - some may have to wait until (all?) others deemed to be in more urgent need of medical attention have been taken care of.
    That is incorrect. In most UHC countries EVERYBODY contributes, not just the rich. In Germany, for instance, it's 7% of your income, no matter what you make. You can also choose your doctor, health insurer or even decide to pull out of the public system altogether and go private with your money. There are dozens of flavors and ways we could do this.

    Also as far as prioritization goes, the US currently has a system where wealth is what prioritizes care instead of need. Further, unless you're massively wealthy, whether you can get treatment or not is decided by analysts at a private insurance company. In UHC countries the only person deciding if you get a procedure or not and with what priority is you and the doctor you freely chose for yourself.

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    Re: US healthcare is a bad joke

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    I THINK what he is saying, is that due to those countries spending less on military, they can afford to spend more on healthcare. Which reduces INDIVIDUAL costs.

    More over, they can reduce the cost of healthcare by reducing the overhead, by having free, or dramatically cheaper education, and reduced R and D, since the US is responsible for most innovations.

    Not saying our system is perfect, or even ideal. Its FUBAR. But we will not be able to imitate their systems.
    That (bolded above) is not the case - total medical care costs (expressed either as a per capita expenditure or as a percentage of GDP) are reduced by having a single-payer system instead of having a mixture of public/private multiple payer systems.

    Whether or not the US can adopt an "imitation" of such a system depends largely on how the reduction in total spending is achieved. Do we cut the 'overhead' of R&D along with any chance of medical care providers making a profit? Do we pay medical care providers for the cost of services offered (like we do with police/fire departments which get a fixed annual budget) or only based on actual demand (services rendered to patients on that day, month or year)?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: US healthcare is a bad joke

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    That is incorrect. In most UHC countries EVERYBODY contributes, not just the rich. In Germany, for instance, it's 7% of your income, no matter what you make. You can also choose your doctor, health insurer or even decide to pull out of the public system altogether and go private with your money. There are dozens of flavors and ways we could do this.

    Also as far as prioritization goes, the US currently has a system where wealth is what prioritizes care instead of need. Further, unless you're massively wealthy, whether you can get treatment or not is decided by analysts at a private insurance company. In UHC countries the only person deciding if you get a procedure or not and with what priority is you and the doctor you freely chose for yourself.
    That (bolded above) does not seem to be consistent with our current M4A bills. These M4A bills heavily depend on taxing "the rich" more, eliminating any 'private' medical care insurance and eliminating for-profit medical care providers.

    Summary of H.R. 676 (113th): Expanded & Improved Medicare For All Act - GovTrack.us

    Text - S.1804 - 115th Congress (2017-2018): Medicare for All Act of 2017 | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: US healthcare is a bad joke

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That (bolded above) does not seem to be consistent with our current M4A bills. These M4A bills heavily depend on taxing "the rich" more, eliminating any 'private' medical care insurance and eliminating for-profit medical care providers.

    Summary of H.R. 676 (113th): Expanded & Improved Medicare For All Act - GovTrack.us

    Text - S.1804 - 115th Congress (2017-2018): Medicare for All Act of 2017 | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
    So when talking about UHC systems you said it couldn't work because of a policy that really only the US does? Cool. I'm not saying any specific M4A bill is the answer, I'm saying we could effectively implement UHC without the issues you mentioned if we wanted to, but Americans for some reason just do not want high quality affordable health care.

    What's wrong with the German model of flat 7% across the board? Many countries have dual public and private systems so consumers can choose. Why can't we do that?
    Last edited by RabidAlpaca; 07-28-19 at 10:34 AM.

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    Re: US healthcare is a bad joke

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    So when talking about UHC systems you said it couldn't work because of a policy that really only the US does? Cool. I'm not saying any specific M4A bill is the answer, I'm saying we could effectively implement UHC without the issues you mentioned if we wanted to, but Americans for some reason just do not want high quality affordable health care.

    What's wrong with the German model of flat 7% across the board? Many countries have dual public and private systems so consumers can choose. Why can't we do that?
    I agree with you that other nations (or states within them, such as in Canada) have come up with viable systems that put our current mess to shame. The primary reason that "we can't do that" is that no such bill exists at the federal, state or local level. One of the reasons for that is PPACA outlaws states from deviating from the "one size fits all" mandate for what a "federally approved" medical care insurance policy can be.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: US healthcare is a bad joke

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnFox View Post
    Just watched this:



    $500 / stitch is insane, Seriously, your system is laughable

    and one quite new video about our healthcare system here in Finland:

    i paid two grand out of pocket for the hospital to superglue a deep cut on my thumb and to give me a tetanus shot. took them 45 minutes, and 30 of that was my wait time. this is with decent insurance. luckily, i think that my current insurance is better, but i have personally avoided hospital treatment at all costs since then. there were probably two other times since then that i should have gone and didn't.

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    Re: US healthcare is a bad joke

    The primary reason America won't ever have a public health care system is because

    Republicans protect the profits of the insurance companies, big pharma and the rest of the health care system

    Republicans rich donors can afford the best health care no matter the cost and don't want to contribute to health care for the rest of us

    Republican propaganda is very effective and has convinced a large segment of the population that what works in the rest of the developed world will not work in America. The middle/working class suffers because they don't want poor people to have access to that health care. It would be humorous if it weren't so tragic.

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    Re: US healthcare is a bad joke

    Quote Originally Posted by Luther View Post
    I know(LOL)



    Look, I, like you have a problem with our cost

    Doesn't mean we need to turn it over to our VAIN FED GOV


    Also, our Healthcare is actually better in many ways

    We lead innovation for example
    Innovation people pay out the ying yang for. I honestly don't understand why the right keeps supporting our out of control health care system. It's broken and we all know it and yet all I hear from the right are excuses as to why we can't fix it.
    When I stop answering you, there's a reason.......repeat, When I stop answering you, there's a reason.

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    Re: US healthcare is a bad joke

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnFox View Post
    $500 / stitch is insane, Seriously, your system is laughable
    There's a limit to how useful these attempts at international comparison are.

    At first glance, it's impressive how little the U.K. spends on its NHS. On the other hand, the NHS is reaching a crisis point due to chronic underfunding. You could always spend less if you decided to prioritize savings over services, but there's a very strong bias against that in the United States.

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