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Thread: Key Design Components and Considerations for Establishing a Single-Payer Health Care System

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    Re: Key Design Components and Considerations for Establishing a Single-Payer Health Care System

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    1. No one is saying that our savings will be the same as Canada's

    .
    Really... you need to get out a bit more... because we are being compared to other countries..like Canada all the time and told how if we go to a single payer.. then we will have the same savings.

    2. Insurers don't all use the same form and Medicare and Medicaid are not the hardest to get reimbursement from
    Pretty much yes they do.

    The CMS-1500 is the universal claim form used by non-institutional healthcare providers (private practices, etc.) to bill Medicare for Part B covered services and some Medicaid-covered services, and is accepted by most health insurance providers.
    as far as Medicaid:
    Low Medicaid reimbursement rates are an important factor in a physician’s decision whether or not to accept Medicaid patients, 8–11 but those rates are not the only consideration. The administrative burden of participating in the Medicaid program, delays in reimbursement, and Medicaid patients’ behavior also matter. 14,15 Boukus ER , Casil A , O’Malley AS . A snapshot of US physicians: key findings from the 2008 health tracking physician survey . Washington (DC) : Center for Studying Health System Change ; 2009 .
    3. The money doesn't magically disappear.
    Okay.. I'll bite.. please explain what happens when you reduce GDP by 6%.. In other words..what happens when you reduce our gross national product.. our income if you will.. by 6%.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
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    Re: Key Design Components and Considerations for Establishing a Single-Payer Health Care System

    Quote Originally Posted by manofknowledge View Post
    There is only one Medicare. If you are eligible for one you are eligible for all. Part A is covered without a premium, Part B requires the $125 dollar annual premium, Part C is a private insurance replacement for Parts A, B and D. Part D is pharmacy coverage.
    Canada is irrelevant to the conversation. My reference is to current Medicare.

    24.7 million Americans still have no health insurance. For them Medicare for All is by far the best solution.

    Key Facts about the Uninsured Population | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

    41% of working age Americans have unpaid medical debt. Medicare for All eliminates this drag on the economy.

    Survey: 79 Million Americans Have Problems with Medical Bills or Debt | Commonwealth Fund
    You actually just pointed out that there are at least THREE medicares.. Medicare part A.. which you get by virtue of working enough and paying into medicare. That covers hospital, home health and inpatient rehab

    Part B requires a premium...and its NOT an annual premium as you stated.. its a monthly premium. It covers outpatient care

    The standard monthly premium for Medicare Part B enrollees will be $135.50 for 2019, an increase of $1.50 from $134 in 2018.
    And there is medicare Part D.. which covers drugs.

    SO.... there is three (actually more.. but three for laymans purposes)...medicare. So when politicians talk about Medicare for All... we need to be clear what they actually mean.

    Particularly when they talk about other countries and their single payer systems (like Canada)… because Canada and most other countries.. their single payer is more like just our medicare part A... in fact.. usually not as comprehensive.

    24.7 million Americans still have no health insurance. For them Medicare for All is by far the best solution.
    Not the best for them by far.. but it would cover them. Of course they represent 10% or so of americans. And medicare for all.. probably means a decrease for the other 90%.

    41% of working age Americans have unpaid medical debt. Medicare for All eliminates this drag on the economy.
    Not at all. That's an assumption that's not bound in reality.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

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    Re: Key Design Components and Considerations for Establishing a Single-Payer Health Care System

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    You actually just pointed out that there are at least THREE medicares.. Medicare part A.. which you get by virtue of working enough and paying into medicare. That covers hospital, home health and inpatient rehab

    Part B requires a premium...and its NOT an annual premium as you stated.. its a monthly premium. It covers outpatient care

    And there is medicare Part D.. which covers drugs.

    SO.... there is three (actually more.. but three for laymans purposes)...medicare. So when politicians talk about Medicare for All... we need to be clear what they actually mean.

    Particularly when they talk about other countries and their single payer systems (like Canada) because Canada and most other countries.. their single payer is more like just our medicare part A... in fact.. usually not as comprehensive.

    Not the best for them by far.. but it would cover them. Of course they represent 10% or so of americans. And medicare for all.. probably means a decrease for the other 90%.

    Not at all. That's an assumption that's not bound in reality.
    If there are three Medicares then why are the coverages refered to as "Parts?"

    Standard Medicare with Parts A, B and D or Part C is equivalent to a Silver health insurance plan. Very few people have a health insurance plan that covers more, so no 90% of Americans will not have less coverage. In fact most private plans have higher deductibles and copays than Medicare.

    You keep digressing to discussion of other countries. They are irrlevant to any comments I have made.

    More people with comprehensive health insurance logically means less medical debt. The costs covered by insurance are not billed to the patient. Yes many people have debt even with health insurance but the debt is more managable.

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    Re: Key Design Components and Considerations for Establishing a Single-Payer Health Care System

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    Really... you need to get out a bit more... because we are being compared to other countries..like Canada all the time and told how if we go to a single payer.. then we will have the same savings.

    Pretty much yes they do.



    as far as Medicaid:

    Okay.. I'll bite.. please explain what happens when you reduce GDP by 6%.. In other words..what happens when you reduce our gross national product.. our income if you will.. by 6%.
    1. Comparing to Canada is not saying we will save/spend just as much as Canada. It is dishonest to claim it's the same.

    2. Yes, Medicaid has a form. So do other Insurers.

    3. GDP doesn't magically disappear
    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I don't have any issue with any investigation.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Key Design Components and Considerations for Establishing a Single-Payer Health Care System

    Quote Originally Posted by manofknowledge View Post
    If there are three Medicares then why are the coverages refered to as "Parts?"

    Standard Medicare with Parts A, B and D or Part C is equivalent to a Silver health insurance plan. Very few people have a health insurance plan that covers more, so no 90% of Americans will not have less coverage. In fact most private plans have higher deductibles and copays than Medicare.

    You keep digressing to discussion of other countries. They are irrlevant to any comments I have made.

    More people with comprehensive health insurance logically means less medical debt. The costs covered by insurance are not billed to the patient. Yes many people have debt even with health insurance but the debt is more managable.
    Good job. Jaeger has been very sophistic in his posts.

    He keeps referring to Canada in order to misrepresent the pro-single payer side as promising that a US SP system will cost the same as Canada's. He says

    1. if we cover more than Canada our system will cost more, which he then distorts into "it will be more expensive than what we have now"

    And

    2. If it covers less, people will have to pay for uncovered services or buy additional coverage which will result in them paying more for their health care (as if Canadians don't have to do that and yet they still spend much less per capita on health care)

    IOW, if we cover more, it will be more expensive and if we cover less, it will be more expensive. He does this by comparing the covered costs only if we decide to cover more than Canada does or by comparing Canada's covered costs to the USs covered AND uncovered costs if we cover less than Canada

    Also note that he repeatedly insists that the proposals must detail what is covered, implying that the proposals that have been put forward have not done so. This is an outright lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I don't have any issue with any investigation.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Key Design Components and Considerations for Establishing a Single-Payer Health Care System

    Quote Originally Posted by manofknowledge View Post
    If there are three Medicares then why are the coverages refered to as "Parts?"

    Standard Medicare with Parts A, B and D or Part C is equivalent to a Silver health insurance plan. Very few people have a health insurance plan that covers more, so no 90% of Americans will not have less coverage. In fact most private plans have higher deductibles and copays than Medicare.

    You keep digressing to discussion of other countries. They are irrlevant to any comments I have made.

    More people with comprehensive health insurance logically means less medical debt. The costs covered by insurance are not billed to the patient. Yes many people have debt even with health insurance but the debt is more managable.
    Because there are three medicare parts. Which as I point out. is not what most single payers are like.

    Very few people have a health insurance plan that covers more, so no 90% of Americans will not have less coverage.
    Well.. there is the rub. SO.. if medicare for all.. means that you are actually going to get Medicare part A.. medicare part B for 134 a month..and Medicare part D for another 33.00... why then you are right. This will be BETTER than 90% of americans.

    BUT.. guess what? So now.. your coverage is WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY.. .. beyond what other countries cover in their single payer. FAR AND AWAY more..

    So.. the proposals of medicare for all.. state they are going to get savings... like other single payer countries. How is this possible when what they pay for is far more than what other countries cover?

    You keep digressing to discussion of other countries. They are irrlevant to any comments I have made.
    Nope.. not really because the proponents of Medicare for ALL.. are the ones that keep coming up with the savings that other countries have versus the US.

    More people with comprehensive health insurance logically means less medical debt. The costs covered by insurance are not billed to the patient. Yes many people have debt even with health insurance but the debt is more managable.
    Less medical debt? perhaps.. but you did not say less..you said :
    41% of working age Americans have unpaid medical debt. Medicare for All eliminates this drag on the economy.
    Sorry but it won't eliminate medical debt.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

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    Re: Key Design Components and Considerations for Establishing a Single-Payer Health Care System

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    1. Comparing to Canada is not saying we will save/spend just as much as Canada. It is dishonest to claim it's the same.

    2. Yes, Medicaid has a form. So do other Insurers.

    3. GDP doesn't magically disappear
    1. Really.. so what do you think IS the purpose of comparing to Canada and how much THEY spend o the US is? I guess in your mind..its just random comparisons huh?


    . No sir..its not random..its a dishonest way of comparing Canada with the US..to say that Medicare for All is going to get the same savings.. "like Canada does".

    You are being dishonest if you don't want to admit that. In fact.. I bet THATS exactly what you thought.. until I pointed out to you the difference between Canadian government single payer.. and our current medicare system.

    Yes, Medicaid has a form. So do other Insurers.

    First its a MEDICARE form. Sheesh.. can't you even get that right?


    Second..as I linked to.. that Medicare form is a standard form that is use by most private insurances.

    AND third..and I notice you failed to address this. I linked to research that shows that one of the reasons that physicians don't participate in Medicaid..is because of the administrative hassles. An example that shows that simply going to a government single payer.. doesn't mean its going to save administration costs.

    .
    GDP doesn't magically disappear
    Oh.. well then... please explain in detail when the countries GDP is reduced by 6%... how that income is still actually in the economy.. despite that the GDP was actually reduced...

    this outta be good...
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

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    Re: Key Design Components and Considerations for Establishing a Single-Payer Health Care System

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Jaeger has been very sophistic in his posts.

    He keeps referring to Canada in order to misrepresent the pro-single payer side as promising that a US SP system will cost the same as Canada's. He says

    1. if we cover more than Canada our system will cost more, which he then distorts into "it will be more expensive than what we have now"
    Well lets start with 1.: Ummm.. that's a bald face lie... I never ever stated that its going to be more expensive than we have now. EVER... so stop your lying.

    I have instead repeatedly pointed out..that you cannot get the savings of say Canada... or other countries... when your single payer does not work like theirs does and covers exponentially more.

    2. If it covers less, people will have to pay for uncovered services or buy additional coverage which will result in them paying more for their health care (as if Canadians don't have to do that and yet they still spend much less per capita on health care)
    That's exactly right. . Canadians do have to do that. So..they either go without.. like what happens here.. ..,, they have to purchase a private plan for additional coverage.. (which means private insurance companies and all that entails)..just like here...OR they get it from their employer just like here...
    OR they get coverage from their territory or province.


    So.. Canadians have to deal with 1. Not having coverage for outpatient and medications.

    2. Having to pay private insurance companies and their rates


    3. Having their insurance dependent on where they work (portability problems).


    So.. Canadian single payer.. does not solve the problems... that supporters of Medicare for ALL... claim that it does.

    Also note that he repeatedly insists that the proposals must detail what is covered, implying that the proposals that have been put forward have not done so. This is an outright lie.
    Nope...sorry but even the article posted points out that the plans don't contain the detail on whats covered.. how it gets paid for..how it gets administered.. etc.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

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    Re: Key Design Components and Considerations for Establishing a Single-Payer Health Care System

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    1. Really.. so what do you think IS the purpose of comparing to Canada and how much THEY spend o the US is? I guess in your mind..its just random comparisons huh?


    . No sir..its not random..its a dishonest way of comparing Canada with the US..to say that Medicare for All is going to get the same savings.. "like Canada does".

    You are being dishonest if you don't want to admit that. In fact.. I bet THATS exactly what you thought.. until I pointed out to you the difference between Canadian government single payer.. and our current medicare system.

    First its a MEDICARE form. Sheesh.. can't you even get that right?


    Second..as I linked to.. that Medicare form is a standard form that is use by most private insurances.

    AND third..and I notice you failed to address this. I linked to research that shows that one of the reasons that physicians don't participate in Medicaid..is because of the administrative hassles. An example that shows that simply going to a government single payer.. doesn't mean its going to save administration costs.

    . Oh.. well then... please explain in detail when the countries GDP is reduced by 6%... how that income is still actually in the economy.. despite that the GDP was actually reduced...

    this outta be good...
    1. Its mentioned to show that money can be saved; not to show that our results will be identical to Canada's

    2. No, not the same form

    3. Money doesn't magically disappear from GDP
    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I don't have any issue with any investigation.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Key Design Components and Considerations for Establishing a Single-Payer Health Care System

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    1. Its mentioned to show that money can be saved; not to show that our results will be identical to Canada's

    2. No, not the same form

    3. Money doesn't magically disappear from GDP
    1. Hmm... so is shows that money can be saved with Canadian single payer... well..so?

    Why bring it up if you are not trying to say that your single payer can also get the savings Canada gets?

    Unless you are actually trying to be dishonest...which is whats happening.

    2.
    No, not the same form
    Okay.. I provided evidence that it is the same form/format.. the HCFA 1500.

    Please provide evidence that this form is NOT accepted by insurance companies.

    . Money doesn't magically disappear from GDP
    Then please in detail.. explain where the money goes..when GDP is reduced by 4-6%? Please explain in detail exactly how and where the reduction of 4-6% of GDP.. is actually still in GDP.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

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