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Canadian medical care waiting time! Die while you wait and wait and wait and wait and...

My dad had eye surgery recently. Only inconvenience was, it wasn't at our local hospital, but in another neighbourhood, 40 minutes away by SkyTrain and bus. But, otherwise, fine, no unreasonable wait or anything like that. Before that, my mom fell down and broke her arm, me and dad drove her to emergency room, maybe couple hours later they had her fully examined and in a cast. Only significant wait I recall was years ago, I was still in high school, I tore some ligaments in my ankle, went to emergency room also, ended up spending around five hours in there, all in all, mostly in waiting :D

But, overall, I'd say the Canadian health care system has treated my family great :)
 
Next heart attack: I showed up on the day during the day that same hospital takes ObamaCare patients. I did the electronic registration that specifically said if you are having chest pains tell the person at the counter. So I checked the chest pain box and then told the person at the counter I had massive chest pain, I have a heart condition and it all but certain I am having a heart attack. He told me to have a seat with about 75 other people. To them, I was an ObamaCare patient.

Whoa, they put you in the Obamacare line, huh? Did they give you the old scarlet "O"?
 
My dad had eye surgery recently. Only inconvenience was, it wasn't at our local hospital, but in another neighbourhood, 40 minutes away by SkyTrain and bus. But, otherwise, fine, no unreasonable wait or anything like that. Before that, my mom fell down and broke her arm, me and dad drove her to emergency room, maybe couple hours later they had her fully examined and in a cast. Only significant wait I recall was years ago, I was still in high school, I tore some ligaments in my ankle, went to emergency room also, ended up spending around five hours in there, all in all, mostly in waiting :D

But, overall, I'd say the Canadian health care system has treated my family great :)

Yep.. and that's what its designed for.. the average need..

the US system is different.. we are designed for the extreme.. for those folks that fall out of the average.. its our culture..

(if you have insurance.. of course. which is 90% roughly)..
 
Whoa, they put you in the Obamacare line, huh? Did they give you the old scarlet "O"?

Generally the hospital refuses to accept ObamaCare like essentially every hospital, clinic and doctor around here - and they and nearly all have a list of insurance they will not accept either. However, as a charitable matter they do a couple days a month. I happened to show up on one of those days. My speculation is that ethically they could not see me before those in front of me in line, even though I am self pay that can and does pay, which that hospital knows.
 
Generally the hospital refuses to accept ObamaCare like essentially every hospital, clinic and doctor around here - .

Sorry.. they can;t.. not the ER. not for emergency situations.. its the law.

And again.. there is no "obamacare".. its private insurance.
 
I have an exact experience of the difference between private healthcare and government healthcare - even at the same hospital.

Heart attack. I went to the hospital due to huge chest pain - heart attack - as a self payer one night. They immediately did an EKG and I was admitted and cared for immediately.

Next heart attack: I showed up on the day during the day that same hospital takes ObamaCare patients. I did the electronic registration that specifically said if you are having chest pains tell the person at the counter. So I checked the chest pain box and then told the person at the counter I had massive chest pain, I have a heart condition and it all but certain I am having a heart attack. He told me to have a seat with about 75 other people. To them, I was an ObamaCare patient.


Was I having a heart attack (blockage so part of my heart was not receiving blood)? Yes. There I sat. One hour. Two hours. It was just over 3 hours before anyone spoke to me - though an EKG to determine if it was a heart attack takes 1 minute.

Result, permanent and irreparable damage to my heart literally unable to get any treatment for a heart attack by a heart patient saying he's having a heart attack WHEN IN THE GOVERNMENT CARE LINE.

After an examine if there is a heart issue? They do an MRI or CAT scan to determine if a heart cath exam is warranted - unless I am in clear life-death danger. They do the MRI immediately - in the USA IF I am using private care I pay for.

What about Canada? How long would it take for me to get that MRI? 30 minutes? 1 hour? OMG 2 hours?! NO - Try 250 hours - over 10 WEEKS!

"From the time it takes to receive a referral by a GP – to receiving treatment – Canadians wait an average of 21.2 weeks to receive treatment from a specialist. MRI procedures could take up to 10.8 weeks."

US vs Canadian Healthcare: What Are the Differences? | AIMS Education

A woman detects a lump in her breast? Maybe breast cancer? Go stand in line - first to see a primary care doctor - and go stand in another line to see a specialist - over 5 MONTHS!

COST to Canadian government per person for "free" healthcare: $5,789 per person per year, or $23,000+ per year for a family of 4. (same source). If the same cost in the USA? One trillion two hundred eight billion dollars per year - $1.280 TRILLION PER YEAR.

To die waiting months for an MRI or to see a specialize.

^ THAT is what the Democratic Party wants to FORCE on you. Under the Democratic Party plan I would have died of a heart attack 11 years ago. The Democratic Party's plan should be called the "Kill all People Who Need Urgent Medical Care" plan. Then brag about how much money killing off those people saves. That is DEMOCRAT healthcare.
Your story sounds like BS

according to you, the ER has a special day for people with Obamacare.

EMERGENCY rooms take people with EMERGENCIES every day of the year, regardless of what kind of insurance you do or don't have
 
Generally the hospital refuses to accept ObamaCare like essentially every hospital, clinic and doctor around here - and they and nearly all have a list of insurance they will not accept either. However, as a charitable matter they do a couple days a month. I happened to show up on one of those days. My speculation is that ethically they could not see me before those in front of me in line, even though I am self pay that can and does pay, which that hospital knows.

more lies LMAO
why do you tell such retarded lies like this when you cant back them up with anything factual that makes them true?

:popcorn2:
 
Your story sounds like BS

according to you, the ER has a special day for people with Obamacare.

EMERGENCY rooms take people with EMERGENCIES every day of the year, regardless of what kind of insurance you do or don't have

Emergency rooms do more than handle emergencies. By law passed by Republican President Reagan, hospitals are required to minimally stabilize a person until the person can be moved elsewhere if the condition is imminently life threatening. If not, the ER can refuse admission. I gathered the patients on that day were there for treatments like for cancer, COPD and dementia are are there every such charitable days.

Most ER visits are not life-death emergencies but people for with no imminently life threatening injuries or illness like the flu, a cut, bad sprain, broken bone, or chest pain that turns out not to be the person's heart. The ER probably will go ahead and treat the person, write a prescription, and tell them to see their primary caregiver - whether the person has one or not.
 
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more lies LMAO
why do you tell such retarded lies like this when you cant back them up with anything factual that makes them true?

:popcorn2:

Troll someone else. You're wasting your time trying to do so at me.
 
Troll someone else. You're wasting your time trying to do so at me.

LMAO
Translation: your lies were busted and you cant support your claims with facts that make it true got it!:lamo
If facts bother you in the future dont make up lies, your post wont fail so bad and multiple posters wont expose it and mock it for how dishonest and retarded the claims were and your problem will be solved. You're welcome
 
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It certainly does seem the case that healthcare in Canada does not perform as well as the US. Can't really disagree there.

If I was cynical, I might have thought you were making an argument against social healthcare, but I am sure you wouldn't be disingenuous enough to just pick the worst example of social healthcare as a comparator. You'd pick somewhere like the UK, which actually delivers much better outcomes than the US. If you need an MRI or echo etc. and it needs done urgently, then believe me you will be seen urgently! If it can wait, then of course it will wait. Unless you pay private, in which case you will be seen unnecessarily earlier and given a nice private room and a cappuccino and cable TV package.
 
It certainly does seem the case that healthcare in Canada does not perform as well as the US. Can't really disagree there.

If I was cynical, I might have thought you were making an argument against social healthcare, but I am sure you wouldn't be disingenuous enough to just pick the worst example of social healthcare as a comparator. You'd pick somewhere like the UK, which actually delivers much better outcomes than the US. If you need an MRI or echo etc. and it needs done urgently, then believe me you will be seen urgently! If it can wait, then of course it will wait. Unless you pay private, in which case you will be seen unnecessarily earlier and given a nice private room and a cappuccino and cable TV package.


Well..it depends on what you mean as better outcomes. For things like cancer survival? The US has better outcomes than the UK. And for some other things as well.
And.. there really cannot be any assumption that a UK system.. which is largely government controlled... would do well in the US. Particularly with our current political gridlock.

I think most americans would cringe at the idea of TRump being in charge of their healthcare.
 
I forgot how funny the lies in the OP were and how bad this thread failed, awesome.
 
Bingo. Its just not as simple as our liberals here want to make it out to be.

Many of the problems.. like portability.. and preventative medicine.. are NOT solved by the Canadian system.. where you live and who you work for.. determines your healthcare.. just as it can in the states..

They are not solved by any system. Two of the biggest medical care providers in our county, WakeMed and Duke health, stopped taking Blue Cross, Blue Shield. That is a lot of people who will be affected by a change in what their doctors will accept. And despite what some may think, some areas only have one, maybe two providers of certain specialty services, even in major areas like mine. CVS also stopped taking BC/BS (also doesn't take Tricare Select). This can be an issue also when few places have your medication and it could take days to get needed medication in.
 
They are not solved by any system. Two of the biggest medical care providers in our county, WakeMed and Duke health, stopped taking Blue Cross, Blue Shield. That is a lot of people who will be affected by a change in what their doctors will accept. And despite what some may think, some areas only have one, maybe two providers of certain specialty services, even in major areas like mine. CVS also stopped taking BC/BS (also doesn't take Tricare Select). This can be an issue also when few places have your medication and it could take days to get needed medication in.

Actually it could be solved with a system that used a healthcare savings account. Your employer who now buys a blue cross blue shield policy because that policy works fro 90% of its employees... but not the 10% in your area....

In a healthcare savings account system... that employer now puts in the same amount into your healthcare savings account.. so you can go out and purchase the healthcare insurance that works for your area. I guarantee that WakeMed and Duke health.. accept SOME private insurances... so you can go and purchase those insurance.

Of course..then blue cross will wonder... what happened to our customers.? .. and may want to get you back... because now you can leave them... So now they renegotiate with Wakemed andDuke health.. and increase their reimbursements.. and now Wakemed and Duke health... start taking blue cross again.

And if you change jobs? The next employer starts putting money into your healthcare savings account and you continue with the same insurance that works for you in your area.
 
The irony of this post is that if anything it shows that the U.S. healthcare system's reliance on private insurance is worse than Canada's system. The OP is literally complaining about having to wait for care in the United States as if that therefore shows Canada's healthcare system is bad.
 
I showed up on the day during the day that same hospital takes ObamaCare patients. I did the electronic registration that specifically said if you are having chest pains tell the person at the counter. So I checked the chest pain box and then told the person at the counter I had massive chest pain, I have a heart condition and it all but certain I am having a heart attack. He told me to have a seat with about 75 other people. To them, I was an ObamaCare patient.
Cool story bro

No, wait, that's total bull****. ER doctors neither know nor care about how you got your insurance. Not to mention that if you have coverage under the ACA, that means the hospital will get paid -- so even under the most conspiratorial kook thinking about this, they have no motivation to ignore ACA patients.

So, if it took an hour for them to get to a patient with chest pain, then either the hospital was completely slammed, or you failed to convey the right information to the desk, or someone at the desk screwed up and did not prioritize properly.


Result, permanent and irreparable damage to my heart literally unable to get any treatment for a heart attack by a heart patient saying he's having a heart attack WHEN IN THE GOVERNMENT CARE LINE.
You weren't in the "government care line." You were at a hospital that takes private insurance.


After an examine if there is a heart issue? They do an MRI or CAT scan to determine if a heart cath exam is warranted - unless I am in clear life-death danger. They do the MRI immediately - in the USA IF I am using private care I pay for.
You'd get the same treatment in any nation with single-payer or socialized health care. Possibly better.


What about Canada? How long would it take for me to get that MRI? 30 minutes? 1 hour? OMG 2 hours?! NO - Try 250 hours - over 10 WEEKS!
:roll:

Those wait times are for non-emergency services -- and the US not only has its own wait times, it also has millions of people who can't get medical services at all because they can't afford it, or who are driven into bankruptcy because of the high cost of care.


COST to Canadian government per person for "free" healthcare: $5,789 per person per year, or $23,000+ per year for a family of 4. (same source). If the same cost in the USA? One trillion two hundred eight billion dollars per year - $1.280 TRILLION PER YEAR.
You forget that with a single-payer or socialized health care, you and your employer no longer has to pay premiums, and costs for care are near zero.

You also ignore that per capita, the US spends about twice as much on health care as Canada. Not to mention that pharmaceuticals are cheaper in Canada, specifically because the government can negotiate effectively with the drug companies. Hmmmm.


To die waiting months for an MRI or to see a specialize.
Bull****, bull****. Life expectancy is as good, if not better, in nations with single-payer or socialized health care. The US also lags in key factors like infant mortality, almost certainly because of our private system.

Meanwhile, the Republicans are doing everything they can to terminate the health coverage for millions of Americans. Would you have enjoyed going to the hospital with no coverage at all?
 
Actually it could be solved with a system that used a healthcare savings account.
HSAs will not save you when the private system winds up forcing hospitals to charge $50,000 to treat you for a heart attack. They are not, in any way shape or form, a replacement for an actual health insurance policy in the US.
 
HSAs will not save you when the private system winds up forcing hospitals to charge $50,000 to treat you for a heart attack. They are not, in any way shape or form, a replacement for an actual health insurance policy in the US.

Sure it does. The private insurance you bought through your HSA pays for that MI. Just like it does now. The hospital is probably charging on average 50,000 for a MI.. with the cost of care probably averaging 23,000 or so. So the average reimbursement is probably 30,000 to 40000 range.

I did not say that a HSA is in anyway a replacement for health insurance in the US. If you bother to read my post... the HSA is a vehicle so that employers can put money into the employees HSA so that employees … CAN BUY THE INSURANCE THAT WORKS FOR THEM. In other words.. they can buy into an insurance that their local doctors and hospital accept.
 
You'd get the same treatment in any nation with single-payer or socialized health care. Possibly better.

Probably not.
Those wait times are for non-emergency services -- and the US not only has its own wait times, it also has millions of people who can't get medical services at all because they can't afford it, or who are driven into bankruptcy because of the high cost of care.


Just depends on what the government considers "non emergency service"... that can have a pretty far ranging definition. and folks being driven into bankruptcy because of the "high cost of care"... is largely BS.. .which I believe I have already shown you.

Y
ou forget that with a single-payer or socialized health care, you and your employer no longer has to pay premiums, and costs for care are near zero.

Yeah no... you forget that with a single payer..like in Canada..often the employer STILL has premiums... to cover those things that the government insurance doesn't cover.. for example in Canada.. covering outpatient pharmaceuticals, outpatient therapies, outpatient visits, and home health.
And employers or citizens..have to pay more in taxes.. there is no free lunch here.

You also ignore that per capita, the US spends about twice as much on health care as Canada.
Except you ignore WHY.. which is because of a number of reasons. Such as cost shifting... for example Canada has public education for doctors.. while that cost in America is not borne by the taxpayer but gets put into the medical column.

Such as differences in demographics.. americans have more obesity. stress etc.


Differences in coverage. Canadian government single payer does not pay for pharmaceuticals, or outpatient therapies, or home health. Things that insurances in the US have to cover.

Bull****, bull****. Life expectancy is as good, if not better, in nations with single-payer or socialized health care
Nah...only in some of them. And life expectancy has more to do with social factors, than the quality of your medical system.

The US also lags in key factors like infant mortality, almost certainly because of our private system.
Nah... it has more to do with things like the likelihood of high risk pregnancies from older mothers etc. It also has to do with babies that in other countries.. that would never make it to term..make it to term in the us and are born and go into the Nicu.. where they may eventually die.


In other countries.. the baby never makes it even close to being born.. thus its not infant mortality.
 
Another personal example: Myself.

For the last heart surgery (noting I'm self pay) I was told the cost was $34,000+. I said, "that can't be right, it wasn't anywhere near that much last time."

What happened next? They explained they made an error not noticing I'm self pay. Self pay is only $14,000. A $20,000 difference. Or a $20,000 rip off of the government or insurance, depending how you want to look at it.

Fortunately, initially they knew I was self pay, so they didn't have to wait until the government or insurance company approved of the surgery, they could do it without delay.

$14,000 for heart surgery?? $34,000 for heart surgery? lol...lol...lol... In the real world in the US you're talking 10 times that, maybe more.

Both numbers are a lie. This whole thread is a lie.. Obamacare lines in the ER? WTF? I have Obamacare it's through a private insurance company. They ask for my card, copy it, and I'm in. They don't know or care how I got the insurance, as long as I have it.

What a bunch of crap threads like this are.

Have a nice day.
 
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Sure it does. The private insurance you bought through your HSA pays for that MI.
You can't use HSAs to pay your regular premiums.

More importantly, there is no magic to an HSA. All it does is give you a little bit of a tax break. It doesn't provide guaranteed issue, it doesn't ensure coverage for pre-existing conditions, it doesn't fix any portability issues, it doesn't bring down costs, and so on. That should be obvious by how HSAs already exist and don't fix any of those problems.


The hospital is probably charging on average 50,000 for a MI.. with the cost of care probably averaging 23,000 or so. So the average reimbursement is probably 30,000 to 40000 range.
Nope. That's not how it works.

The hospital sets "Chargemaster rates" for procedures as a starting point for negotiations with the insurance companies, which knock it down by massive percentages. If you don't have insurance, the hospital will stick you with the entire bill. Sometimes you can negotiate it down yourself, but you have very little leverage, especially compared to an insurance company with tens of thousands of patients.

HSAs do nothing to change that dynamic.


I did not say that a HSA is in anyway a replacement for health insurance in the US. If you bother to read my post... the HSA is a vehicle so that employers can put money into the employees HSA so that employees … CAN BUY THE INSURANCE THAT WORKS FOR THEM.
Nope. That's not how it works.

Employers -- who, by the way, do normally offer insurance with doctors on local plans, which is why most people like their employer-provided plan -- can get their workers onto insurance plans because they've got the numbers. Before the ACA, individuals trying to get coverage were utterly screwed. Premiums were high, deductibles were high, copays were high, coverage was weak, the insurers had entire departments dedicated to finding ways not to cover (typically on the basis of "pre-existing conditions").

That's if the insurer was willing to put you on their plans in the first place, which often wasn't the case. If you were over 40, a freelancer or unemployed, and trying to get health insurance? You were utterly SOL.

The advantage of the ACA is that it forces the insurers to take everyone, and stop the "pre-existing conditions" shenanigans. That only works when healthier ratepayers (usually younger people) pay for insurance. If you only get insurance when you're sick, the system doesn't work, because too many people will be able to freeload.

The ACA also makes it easy for independent individuals to figure out what plan works for them. It also requires coverage for preventative medicine. And since it offers guaranteed issue, it solves portability issues.

This, by the way, is why the ACA was fundamentally and originally a conservative proposal, developed by the Heritage Foundation and implemented by Romney in MA. The mandate was the "Personal Responsibility Principle." The exchanges put insurers into direct competition. Medicaid expansion and subsidies were also part of the plan. Romneycare and the ACA are pretty much the only game in town if you want a private solution with the slightest chance of working. And of course, if Republicans had leaned into the ACA rather than constantly trying to kill it, it might have done as well as Romneycare did in MA.

So I guess you're just a closet ACA fan then, yes?
 
You can't use HSAs to pay your regular premiums.

?

Actually in certain circumstances.. yes they can.

But.. as I explained.. in my plan.. they would be used as a vehicle to pay premiums.

More importantly, there is no magic to an HSA. All it does is give you a little bit of a tax break. It doesn't provide guaranteed issue, it doesn't ensure coverage for pre-existing conditions, it doesn't fix any portability issues, it doesn't bring down costs, and so on. That should be obvious by how HSAs already exist and don't fix any of those problems
.

Actually yes.. it can fix the portability issue. AS I pointed out in my post.. if everyone has an HSA in which they can pay premiums from.. then employers can pay into that HSA.. and then the employee pays for the insurance that they wish. The HSA follows the employee... so when they change jobs.. the new employer simply begins to pay into the persons HSA. No change in insurance.

And yes.. such a plan would bring down costs.. Instead of insurance companies competing for just a few major employers insurance coverage... now insurance companies would be competing for millions of individuals.. and the resulting competition would result in lower prices.

Just consider that when an employer purchases a plan to cover his employees. My plan charges me for covering dependents..and those dependents are assumed to be primary on that insurance.

Except the reality is that most of my employees spouses are covered by OTHER insurance companies that have them primary. So I am charged as if all dependents are primary.. when the reality is that most are not.

Nope. That's not how it works.

The hospital sets "Chargemaster rates" for procedures as a starting point for negotiations with the insurance companies, which knock it down by massive percentages.

Yep..which is what I pointed out. You seem to have trouble with reading comprehension my friend.

I
f you don't have insurance, the hospital will stick you with the entire bill. Sometimes you can negotiate it down yourself, but you have very little leverage, especially compared to an insurance company with tens of thousands of patients.

HSAs do nothing to change that dynamic.

Sure it does. The problem here is you aren't reading my proposal... you are jumping to all sorts of conclusions about how HSA work now.. and not on what I was proposing.

And HSA's in the way I describe would greatly change that dynamic. Because the HSA would be paying for INSURANCE. AND by providing a way for employees.. especially small businesses... to help their employees pay for health insurance.. without the employer taking on the burden of purchasing an employer plan..... now folks that fall in the cracks between making too much for Medicaid.. but not in a job that provides health insurance.. will be able to purchase that insurance.. so that surgery is covered.

Nope. That's not how it works.
Yep... that's how it would work.


In fact.. it works well with the existing ACA.. though there is a need to bring back many of the provisions ..the Health insurance mandate and support for insurance companies in new markets etc.

So I guess you're just a closet ACA fan then, yes?
Not a closet fan of the ACA. I have supported the ACA openly since its inception. Oh sure there are things that I disagreed with.. like the initial penalty for "Cadillac insurances"..that would hurt unions healthcare (which are hard won benefits).


And I wasn't a big fan of the subsidy party of the ACA since it put government on the hook for premiums.. with not enough mechanisms for competition to keep prices low.

And I wasn't a big fan of the ACA assumptions that lowering healthcare costs..would translate into lower healthcare premiums. I knew that mostly..without enough competition.. the insurance companies would say thankyou.. and just pocket the savings rather than pass it along as lower premiums.


But there certainly is much more positive in the ACA than negative. AND it definitely was a good start on a free market solution to the healthcare insurance.



But you illustrate a problem with a lot of the right wing and left wing... you are arguing against a position.. that hasn't been proposed. Because obviously.. you don't want to deal the truth about healthcare and healthcare insurance.
 
That wasn't my experience. No one ever told me I had to get regular exams, though I would have been happy to if that were the rule and it were signed off by my doctor.

And I didn't pay that $150 a month for nothing, I paid that $150 a month for health insurance. That's how insurance works. I want people on Obamacare to be paying a premium every month, just like I want people who drive vehicles on the same U.S. roads that I drive on to pay a premium every month. That way, if something bad happens I am not stuck paying for my own medical bills and car repairs, and in the case of Obamacare, they are not forced to declare bankruptcy if they have a heart attack or stroke. "Socializing" healthcare just means sharing the burden of the costs. I pay my car insurance, (which, yes, goes to pay for other people's accidents) because one day I might have an accident and need other people's premiums to help pay my medical bills.

Stop making sense.
 
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