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Debunkers VS Medicare for All

Those that oppose MFA should focus on repealing Medicare so we can see the true benefits of the private market....
 
BlueTex said:
Those that oppose MFA should focus on repealing Medicare so we can see the true benefits of the private market....
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That makes no sense at all. Using that "logic" then those who oppose SNAP for all should be for eliminating SNAP.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
That makes no sense at all. Using that "logic" then those who oppose SNAP for all should be for eliminating SNAP.
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How so? Won't the free market take care of those currently covered by Medicare?
 
marke said:
The whole world is being filled with lies about cheap healthcare. Healthcare is expensive and universal government healthcare will not only threaten to bankrupt our already troubled government but will be extremely costly to all individual tax payer budgets operating in the new utopia the democrat dreamers imagine they are bringing to the US.
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Every other country on the planet has vastly cheaper healthcare than we do, for developed nations they average 2 1/2 times less, for developing nations its even less. Nearly all developed governments spend less than our does on healthcare and also cover the entire population. So universal healthcare can't bankrupt us. This isn't some imaginary utopia, this is a reality for the rest of the developed world.
 
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Renae said:
You really aren't educated on the matter are you?
Single-payer healthcare is far more expensive than advocates claim | TheHill
Tackling the tough problem of European health care sustainability – POLITICO
Column: Across the world, universal healthcare is in poor health | Reuters
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Yes, healthcare costs are rising in the developed world because of rising obesity and an aging population, but the same thing is happening here. Healthcare costs in the US are rising faster than the rest of the developed world. Healthcare costs about 3.5 trillion (1.5 trillion in other developed nations), and is projected to reach nearly 6 trillion in 8 years.
 
BlueTex said:
Those that oppose MFA should focus on repealing Medicare so we can see the true benefits of the private market....
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Those that support MFA..don't even know what MFA is.

But please explain what Medicare for all is.

I want to know... is it Medicare part A... part B.. Part C... and link to the proposals.

Once you figure that out... come back to the group and discuss.
 
Napoleon said:
That’s not exactly how it works. If you are uninsured and don’t have or otherwise qualify for Medicare/Medicaid then you are on the hook for the ER bill. And if you don’t pay it then the hospital can and will sue for wage garnishment or even garnishment of your state tax returns until the amount is paid in full.
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This is how it's supposed to work, but in a significant majority of cases the bill is still never paid by the patient and there is little the hospital can do other than destroy the patient's credit and write it off. In most cases, people who don't pay their medical bills don't have good (or any) credit scores to destroy anyway. And they can go right back and be treated for their next ER visit and not pay. Healthcare is a necessity. It's not like their name goes on a "do not serve this customer" list.
 
distraff said:
Yes, healthcare costs are rising in the developed world because of rising obesity and an aging population, but the same thing is happening here. Healthcare costs in the US are rising faster than the rest of the developed world. Healthcare costs about 3.5 trillion (1.5 trillion in other developed nations), and is projected to reach nearly 6 trillion in 8 years.
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It's not sustainable in it's current form, the solution is cost cutting, more rationing and higher taxes.
 
BlueTex said:
How so? Won't the free market take care of those currently covered by Medicare?
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The free market will take care of anything that folks are willing (and able) to pay for.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The free market will take care of anything that folks are willing (and able) to pay for.
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Which leaves seniors, children and the disabled without healthcare insurance.
 
jaeger19 said:
Which leaves seniors, children and the disabled without healthcare insurance.
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Yep, just as eliminating SNAP harms those who now get that benefit. Unlike SNAP, M4A does not allow the "customer" to shop where they please. This whole line of conversation (which you have now entered into) was in response to those objecting tp M4A being willing to get rid of Medicare (as it now exists).
 
distraff said:
Every other country on the planet has vastly cheaper healthcare than we do, for developed nations they average 2 1/2 times less, for developing nations its even less. Nearly all developed governments spend less than our does on healthcare and also cover the entire population. So universal healthcare can't bankrupt us. This isn't some imaginary utopia, this is a reality for the rest of the developed world.
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What are the tax rates in those other countries? How much do they spend on illegal aliens? How much do they spend on policing world peace? How many non-working poor people do they have in their government welfare system? They may be saving money the US is not saving so they can spend money on things the US is not spending money on.
 
marke said:
What are the tax rates in those other countries? How much do they spend on illegal aliens? How much do they spend on policing world peace? How many non-working poor people do they have in their government welfare system? They may be saving money the US is not saving so they can spend money on things the US is not spending money on.
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Those countries' government spend less on healthcare than we do. Their higher tax rates are due to much larger non-healthcare welfare systems, not universal healthcare.
 
Renae said:
It's not sustainable in it's current form, the solution is cost cutting, more rationing and higher taxes.
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The solution is higher taxes because you can't keep the same healthcare costs when the population is getting older and fatter. We basically have healthcare tax increases every year by health premium increases and rising deductibles. But again, they spend a fraction of what do we on healthcare and that will continue to be true even if they raise taxes, their governments spend less on universal healthcare than we do on Medicare and Medicaid, their healthcare costs are increasing less rapidly than ours, and their effective healthcare quality is about the same as ours.
 
distraff said:
Those countries' government spend less on healthcare than we do. Their higher tax rates are due to much larger non-healthcare welfare systems, not universal healthcare.
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They likely do not spend a lot of money defending the world from maniacs. They likely control their politicians better so the crooks in office do not find ways to throw billions of loose dollars at their friends and supporters and favorite causes. They likely do not encourage train car loads of immigrants to invade the US where they will not be legally allowed to work and will have to depend on the American taxpayers to take care of them. And so forth.
 
distraff said:
The solution is higher taxes because you can't keep the same healthcare costs when the population is getting older and fatter. We basically have healthcare tax increases every year by health premium increases and rising deductibles. But again, they spend a fraction of what do we on healthcare and that will continue to be true even if they raise taxes, their governments spend less on universal healthcare than we do on Medicare and Medicaid, their healthcare costs are increasing less rapidly than ours, and their effective healthcare quality is about the same as ours.
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Socialism is great till you start running out of other peoples money....
 
Renae said:
Socialism is great till you start running out of other peoples money....
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Not going to run out. Their governments pay less for healthcare than ours do.
 
distraff said:
Those countries' government spend less on healthcare than we do. Their higher tax rates are due to much larger non-healthcare welfare systems, not universal healthcare.
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Yeah no.. they may spend less as a country on healthcare.. but a larger percentage of their healthcare spending is done by their government. Plus.. part of the way they get their savings is through cost shifting.

So while they spend less in healthcare...that's in part because for example.. they pick up the tab for their physicians and nurses etc.. education. In America.. the government doesn't pay for our education.. so that cost is passed on to our consumers...

In other countries.. they simply push that cost onto their education system.
 
jaeger19 said:
Yeah no.. they may spend less as a country on healthcare.. but a larger percentage of their healthcare spending is done by their government. Plus.. part of the way they get their savings is through cost shifting.

So while they spend less in healthcare...that's in part because for example.. they pick up the tab for their physicians and nurses etc.. education. In America.. the government doesn't pay for our education.. so that cost is passed on to our consumers...

In other countries.. they simply push that cost onto their education system.
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You know, my BILL for my Gastric sleeve was around 100k.
But between me and Ins only 14k was paid.
I wonder if that SUPER EXPENSIVE cost the USA is claimed to be paying is actually what's paid vs what's billed
 
Renae said:
You know, my BILL for my Gastric sleeve was around 100k.
But between me and Ins only 14k was paid.
I wonder if that SUPER EXPENSIVE cost the USA is claimed to be paying is actually what's paid vs what's billed
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Its actually whats paid.

But you bring up a important subject.

For the last two decades.. we keep hearing how we have to lower the cost of healthcare...

and interestingly we have been lowering or controlling the cost of healthcare (while demand has boomed).. from the balanced budget act to Obamacare.

But the fact is.. most people don't pay the cost of healthcare... they pay the cost of healthcare insurance.

So who benefits from the lower cost of healthcare? Insurance companies.. and if there is not enough competition... then there is no reason to pass any savings on to their consumers.. you and I
 
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