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Debunkers VS Medicare for All

Bullseye said:
Sorry, I ain't buyin' it. First off there ISN'T GONNA be extra money in anyone's pocket - there's going to be less, far less. That's the point. $3-4 trillion a year - as much as we currently take in.
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How much do we currently spend on HC?
 
Bullseye said:
Sorry, I ain't buyin' it. First off there ISN'T GONNA be extra money in anyone's pocket - there's going to be less, far less. That's the point. $3-4 trillion a year - as much as we currently take in.
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Yes there is going to be more money in most people's pockets. It's already working elsewhere. Healthcare costs are ALREADY higher in American than they are in every other western country with universal healthcare. It's silly to assume that America will be the one advanced western society that is unable to get universal healthcare to work.
 
lwf said:
Yes there is going to be more money in most people's pockets. It's already working elsewhere. Healthcare costs are ALREADY higher in American than they are in every other western country with universal healthcare. It's silly to assume that America will be the one advanced western society that is unable to get universal healthcare to work.
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I've heard all these clichés for years. Still not true. I suggest you do a little googling; maybe start with "healthcare problems in <your favorite idolized country>". Costs, long waits for advanced services or procedures, rationing to name just a few problems. Then dig into the problems Medicare is having with unfunded liabilities in the next few years. Sorry, your idealized version of UHC doesn't pass the reality test.
 
Bullseye said:
I've heard all these clichés for years. Still not true. I suggest you do a little googling; maybe start with "healthcare problems in <your favorite idolized country>". Costs, long waits for advanced services or procedures, rationing to name just a few problems. Then dig into the problems Medicare is having with unfunded liabilities in the next few years. Sorry, your idealized version of UHC doesn't pass the reality test.
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I never suggested that problems don't exist. Of course they do. No system is perfect. But maybe you should google "quality of life and healthcare costs by country." Pessimism and fear of problems is a recipe for both social and cultural stagnation. People are resilient. Any problems that arise can be handled intelligently: We have thousands of years worth of evidence for this. Humans are good at adapting, and our lives always somehow wind up better than they were even when we encounter problems. If we don't like where we are and we can see a way forward, aren't we better off listening to the optimists than to the naysayers? Even if it means we might trip along the way?
 
Renae said:


The brilliant debunking of Medicare for All... I love these guys.
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Basically the best refutation of these guys is that other developed nations cover 100% of the population with public healthcare for less than we spend on Medicare and Medicaid. They also achieve decent quality of care, their populations are healthier and live longer, and healthcare prices aren't going up nearly as quickly.
 
lwf said:
I never suggested that problems don't exist. Of course they do. No system is perfect. But maybe you should google "quality of life and healthcare costs by country."
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I've done that several times and seen no major benefit. What I find interesting is that sick people in all these countries you idolize for their wonderful health go to the US when they have serious problems.

lwf said:
Pessimism and fear of problems is a recipe for both social and cultural stagnation. People are resilient. Any problems that arise can be handled intelligently: We have thousands of years worth of evidence for this. Humans are good at adapting, and our lives always somehow wind up better than they were even when we encounter problems. If we don't like where we are and we can see a way forward, aren't we better off listening to the optimists than to the naysayers? Even if it means we might trip along the way?
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Not really sure where you think you're going with this.
 
Bullseye said:
I've done that several times and seen no major benefit. What I find interesting is that sick people in all these countries you idolize for their wonderful health go to the US when they have serious problems.
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Interesting that you bring that up, because the numbers do not favor the U.S.

Only 0.15% of Canandians travel to get their healthcare from the United States. Almost all are wealthy and are willing to pay the extra cost for healthcare in the U.S. in order to reduce their wait times for non life-threatening issues. People don't come to the U.S. for life saving medical treatment, and they don't come here for affordable healthcare.

A full 2% of Americans alone get their prescriptions from Canada. Nearly all do it because of the prohibitive cost of prescription drugs in America. In fact, many Canadian tourists get riders on their insurance policies that call for them to be transported back to Canada in the event of a serious injury. This is common in countries with universal healthcare when their citizens visit the U.S.

So yes, there are longer wait times for non-serious medical issues in countries with universal healthcare. But very few "medical tourists" come to the U.S. solely to get treatment because our healthcare costs are outrageous. The ones that do are usually wealthy and willing to pay the higher costs for quicker turn around. Medical tourism is primarily an American thing where Americans go to other countries for affordable healthcare, and it is fueled entirely by the high costs of healthcare here.
 
lwf said:
Yes there is going to be more money in most people's pockets. It's already working elsewhere. Healthcare costs are ALREADY higher in American than they are in every other western country with universal healthcare. It's silly to assume that America will be the one advanced western society that is unable to get universal healthcare to work.
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Nope.. economically its not a zero sum game. A good portion of the growth in the economy is healthcare. In fact.. I believe healthcare industry is now one of if not the leader in job creation.

In 2000, there were 7 million more workers in manufacturing than in health care. At the beginning of the Great Recession, there were 2.4 million more workers in retail than health care. In 2017, health care surpassed both.
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Health Care Just Became the U.S.'s Largest Employer - The Atlantic

Just facts.
 
jaeger19 said:
Nope.. economically its not a zero sum game. A good portion of the growth in the economy is healthcare. In fact.. I believe healthcare industry is now one of if not the leader in job creation.


Health Care Just Became the U.S.'s Largest Employer - The Atlantic

Just facts.
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Of course it is. What other product does everyone have to have in order to survive? And what other product has as high of a mark-up? It's erroneous to assume that destroying an industry that is driving economic growth will also destroy the economy. All of the money being funneled into the healthcare industry ends up back in the pockets of consumers. People don't just stop spending money when you take away their need to spend it on healthcare. The simple fact is: Removing the for-profit healthcare industry would boost the economy in the long run. The health of a single industry, no matter how profitable, =\= the heath of the economy.
 
distraff said:
Basically the best refutation of these guys is that other developed nations cover 100% of the population with public healthcare for less than we spend on Medicare and Medicaid. They also achieve decent quality of care, their populations are healthier and live longer, and healthcare prices aren't going up nearly as quickly.
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Other countries are scaling back their healthcare spending and facing serious economic problems in the near future.
 
lwf said:
Of course it is.
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No its not. Our money supply is not finite.. we do grow our economy.

And what other product has as high of a mark-up?
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Yep.. and why? What product cannot be easily outsourced to countries that pay a dollar an hour? Healthcare

What product is experiencing such a massive growth in demand? Healthcare.. because of the baby boomers aging.

It's erroneous to assume that destroying an industry that is driving economic growth will also destroy the economy
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Hmmmm…. you may need to read what you posted just a bit.. and think on that.

All of the money being funneled into the healthcare industry ends up back in the pockets of consumers. People don't just stop spending money when you take away their need to spend it on healthcare. The simple fact is: Removing the for-profit healthcare industry would boost the economy in the long run. The health of a single industry, no matter how profitable, =\= the heath of the econom
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y.

Yeah.. you need to think on that for a minute. First of all...do you know any industry that is made of so many NON PROFIT.. companies? I dare say you can hardly pick an industry that has so many non profit companies.. and even with for profit companies... are higher more, they pay well, etc.. All that translates into money going back into the economy and growth.. money for the average guy... or gal.. those nurses, lab techs, therapists, x ray techs. making good wages.

Now why do you think killing the healthcare industry would be healthy in the long run?

Okay.. now companies would not be paying for healthcare insurance or being self unsured. ..it would be a huge boon for companies, so the big companies would be making tons of more money..

Now.. why do you think that this money would be passed on to their employees? Do the big companies have a long record of taking profit and giving it to their employees as wages? Hmmmm..not so much.

Wait.. you say that not paying healthcare allows companies to pay more to their employees... hmm... what do you think are the wages paid by the companies currently that don;t provide healthcare to their employees?


According to you.. those companies that don't pay for healthcare.. should have the highest wages? Hmmmmm… your premise doesn't seem to hold up to the facts.
 
lwf said:
Cute cartoon, but it misses the point: The problem is that medicare for all already exists, it's just largely unregulated. When someone without health insurance needs medical care, they go to the ER and they MUST BY LAW be treated. They cannot be turned away. The doctors who treat these people are then reimbursed by medicare or medicaid, which comes out of the pockets of taxpayers.

So we already have taxpayer funded healthcare. Obamacare sought to force those people who refused to get health insurance but who are still entitled to healthcare to pay into it anyway (according to what they could afford) on the front end in order to lessen the impact on the rest of us on the back end. And republicans unthinkingly rejected it out of hand as "socialism." If we're going to have universal healthcare anyway, let's make it less costly to the tax payers and just have everyone who is already entitled to it pay into their own insurance plan according to their means. Like almost every other 21st century western country does...
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That’s not exactly how it works. If you are uninsured and don’t have or otherwise qualify for Medicare/Medicaid then you are on the hook for the ER bill. And if you don’t pay it then the hospital can and will sue for wage garnishment or even garnishment of your state tax returns until the amount is paid in full.
 
Napoleon said:
That’s not exactly how it works. If you are uninsured and don’t have or otherwise qualify for Medicare/Medicaid then you are on the hook for the ER bill. And if you don’t pay it then the hospital can and will sue for wage garnishment or even garnishment of your state tax returns until the amount is paid in full.
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But that's unlikely because folks that cannot pay... simply cannot pay.. you can't get blood from a rock.

And those that can pay...declare bankruptcy to wipe out that debt.
 
jaeger19 said:
But that's unlikely because folks that cannot pay... simply cannot pay.. you can't get blood from a rock.

And those that can pay...declare bankruptcy to wipe out that debt.
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I’ve lived that experience so it definitely happens. My state returns go to OSU medical center to this day.
 
Napoleon said:
I’ve lived that experience so it definitely happens. My state returns go to OSU medical center to this day.
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And unlikely. I know because my business has to let go hundreds of thousands of bad debt that we cannot collect or gets taken off because of bankruptcy.
 
Renae said:
Other countries are scaling back their healthcare spending and facing serious economic problems in the near future.
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Those economic problems don't come from excessive healthcare spending because again, their government spend less on healthcare then we do, and their healthcare costs are far less expensive, even if their healthcare costs are rising due to an aging population.
 
distraff said:
Those economic problems don't come from excessive healthcare spending because again, their government spend less on healthcare then we do, and their healthcare costs are far less expensive, even if their healthcare costs are rising due to an aging population.
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The whole world is being filled with lies about cheap healthcare. Healthcare is expensive and universal government healthcare will not only threaten to bankrupt our already troubled government but will be extremely costly to all individual tax payer budgets operating in the new utopia the democrat dreamers imagine they are bringing to the US.
 
distraff said:
Those economic problems don't come from excessive healthcare spending because again, their government spend less on healthcare then we do, and their healthcare costs are far less expensive, even if their healthcare costs are rising due to an aging population.
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You really aren't educated on the matter are you?
Single-payer healthcare is far more expensive than advocates claim | TheHill
Tackling the tough problem of European health care sustainability – POLITICO
Column: Across the world, universal healthcare is in poor health | Reuters
 
Bullseye said:
I've heard all these clichés for years. Still not true. I suggest you do a little googling; maybe start with "healthcare problems in <your favorite idolized country>". Costs, long waits for advanced services or procedures, rationing to name just a few problems. Then dig into the problems Medicare is having with unfunded liabilities in the next few years. Sorry, your idealized version of UHC doesn't pass the reality test.
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Maybe you need to do some research and notice how there is not any serious movement in any of the countries with UHC to change the basis of the system. This should give you a clue about the attitude of the people regarding the problems of UHC...
 
pamak said:
Maybe you need to do some research and notice how there is not any serious movement in any of the countries with UHC to change the basis of the system. This should give you a clue about the attitude of the people regarding the problems of UHC...
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Yeah, it's not like that would be difficult to do, right? Just create an entire new industry, regulations, premium and payment schedule and myriad other details. Easy-peasy, right?
 
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