• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Canadian health care, the truth

It was interesting that she knew the amount of deaths in the USA, but not in Canada. I do think there is an element of patriotism here, too. Canadians don't want to say that the American system is better and Americans don't want to say that the Canadian system is better.

I think it goes without saying that the Canadian system is better in that its costs 1/3 as much and people who need treatment are getting it without dying uninsured and unable to afford treatment.
 
It was interesting that she knew the amount of deaths in the USA, but not in Canada. I do think there is an element of patriotism here, too. Canadians don't want to say that the American system is better and Americans don't want to say that the Canadian system is better.

the solution would be to switch to capitalism to reduce prices about 80% and add 10-20 years to our life spans
 
I think it goes without saying that the Canadian system is better in that its costs 1/3 as much and people who need treatment are getting it without dying uninsured and unable to afford treatment.

Actually it costs 2/3rds as much, and people who need treatment get it in both countries.
 
Actually it costs 2/3rds as much, and people who need treatment get it in both countries.

ok so Canada costs around half what USA costs but in America we have millions living in horrible agony uninsured and unable to afford for example preventative care for precancerous conditions that later may very well kill them. Canada is far better! They have a more organized efficient socialist system than we do. The solution is to switch to capitalism and reduce prices 80% and add 10-20 years to life spans
 
Yeah, okay, but for the vast majority of poor people they either don't have a job so any insurance is public, .

Well yes.. usually because they are elderly or children or disabled.

As shown in the table below, children and youth represent nearly half of all people covered by means-tested public health insurance in the United States. Adults ages 65 and older, many of whom are low-income and participate in Medicaid to supplement Medicare, represent nearly 11 percent. Disabled and institutionalized adults account for another 14 percent, and women who have given birth in the past year represent just under 2 percent. These vulnerable groups account for more than seven in 10 participants in means-tested health insurance programs. Of those remaining, 12 percent work full time or part time. In short, Medicaid and CHIP participants are among the most vulnerable members of the U.S. population.

https://www.prb.org/majority-of-people-covered-by-medicaid-and-similar-programs/

The working poor only comprise 12 percent of those on Medicaid. So the majority of working poor with insurance.. get it through their employer.

CEO's tend not to settle for the same crappy insurance they give their employees
Actually they do and in many states they have to. Because they are an employee just like everyone else and the healthcare plans cannot discriminate. .
 
the solution would be to switch to capitalism to reduce prices about 80% and add 10-20 years to our life spans

Where do you get those fantasy figures? Or are you being sarcastic?
 
I think it goes without saying that the Canadian system is better in that its costs 1/3 as much and people who need treatment are getting it without dying uninsured and unable to afford treatment.

That's not actually true. On that Louder With Crowder video someone posted, he talks to a Canadian who's mother had her legs cut off because she had bad blood flow through her legs and the wait time was so long there was no other option. Completely preventable btw. The video showed that one could not go to the clinic on the weekend and to go to the hospital took hours just to see a doctor, even for people with pretty serious injuries. There were literally wait times for certain things for years. Do you want to wait 6 hours to see a nurse or 2 years to get some other stuff done? I doubt it.
 
That's not actually true. On that Louder With Crowder video someone posted, he talks to a Canadian who's mother had her legs cut off because she had bad blood flow through her legs and the wait time was so long there was no other option. Completely preventable btw. The video showed that one could not go to the clinic on the weekend and to go to the hospital took hours just to see a doctor, even for people with pretty serious injuries. There were literally wait times for certain things for years. Do you want to wait 6 hours to see a nurse or 2 years to get some other stuff done? I doubt it.

mostly myths they live longer than we do and wait times in major studies are comparable. If it was bad there, there would be huge numbers coming to USA for our rapid care.



https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b577bddcd287bb30159f117c22876d51.webp
 
Last edited:
Where do you get those fantasy figures? Or are you being sarcastic?

fantasy? compare standard of living in Cuba and Florida. they are dirt poor in Cuba and cant afford anything. Capitalism makes everything cheap so everyone can afford everything! Do you understand? Look and socialist China compared to today's capitalist china. Today everything is cheap and everyone can afford everythingl; under socialism 60 million slowly starved to death. Do you understand?
 
Last edited:
ok so Canada costs around half what USA costs but in America we have millions living in horrible agony uninsured and unable to afford for example preventative care for precancerous conditions that later may very well kill them. Canada is far better! They have a more organized efficient socialist system than we do. The solution is to switch to capitalism and reduce prices 80% and add 10-20 years to life spans

First, I fully agree that in an ideal world most health care spending would be under free-market capitalism. While such an arrangement is inconceivable to contemporary people, one should also remember that at one time paying out of pocket for major hospital admissions was so cheap that most did so (e.g. my father, an aspiring radio dj, did so, and took care of his wife who didn't work, in 1951).

Second, it is worth noting that most developed countries governments seem to have superior skills, knowledges, and abilities to our own public employees. The fact that the US ranks poorly on tests for ability and education suggests that US economic performance is more due to free-er market system than it is the IQ of its populace. However, absent those forces I am not surprised that European and Commonwealth socialism is far more efficient than our own socialism.

Three, adopting another's country's socialism won't change those deep cultural and intellectual differences in public management. I believe that if the US adopted the system of Canada, the US would still be vastly more expensive.

Last, I decline to make any assumptions about which system is better or more effective for its population. Canada's minority demographics, urbanization and health is far different than that of the US; Canada uses the US as a relief valve for unhappy Canadian patients; Canadians also use the cheaper US drug prices provided by Drug Firms; Canadians have had (in the past) greater wait times; etc.

Moreover, health care statistical comparisons are often bogus or misleading. Things like average life expectancy and birth survival rates are notorious red herrings. But then, so are expenditures for MRI's (etc.). The ONLY fair measures are diagnoses rates, treatment, and relief or survival rates. And on that basis the US has done significantly better than Canada.

None the less, I don't believe comparisons are useful.
 
Well yes.. usually because they are elderly or children or disabled.



https://www.prb.org/majority-of-people-covered-by-medicaid-and-similar-programs/

The working poor only comprise 12 percent of those on Medicaid. So the majority of working poor with insurance.. get it through their employer.

Actually they do and in many states they have to. Because they are an employee just like everyone else and the healthcare plans cannot discriminate. .

RED: I agree, but why should a disabled, elderly, etc. person have as much as a rich person? Again, are you going to buy me that Lamborghini I want? I doubt it. Because it's okay for you to have more than me if you are a rich doctor and have more than me. You really make the case for me about how poor people are getting care on the backs of the taxpayers, not through typical private payment means.

BLUE: That logic does not follow, unless I'm misunderstanding you. The reason that only 12% of those on Medicaid are working full or part-time is because most of them aren't working at all. And btw, even some of the private insurance for the poor is paid for by the taxpayers. And even of the poor who have non-publicly-funded insurance, any payment not paid gets passed down to the taxpayer. So you know when an uninsured poor person goes to the doctor and has a $5000 bill and never pays it? That gets paid for by the taxpayer, not the hospital.

GREEN: That's simply not true. Most people would be familiar with a part-time employee not getting benefits while a full-time employee does. There are different levels of insurance that can be offered with restrictions. According to the article I'm about to post, they simply can't provide the health restrictions based on discrimination, but they can have different health insurance policies for different levels of employees: https://www.peoplekeep.com/blog/can-you-offer-health-insurance-to-certain-employees-only
 
mostly myths they live longer than we do and wait times in major studies are comparable. If it was bad there, there would be huge numbers coming to USA for our rapid care.



https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b577bddcd287bb30159f117c22876d51.webp

So when Steven Crowder had a camera and walked to the clinic, saw it was closed on the weekend, went to the emergency room, waited for many hours before walking out because he couldn't see anybody without waiting many more, etc., that was all just made up? The woman telling the story about her Mom just made that up? The receptionists, nurses, and doctors talking about the long wait times just made that up?

EDIT: About life expectancy, they live like 3 years longer on average from what I saw. There is a lot more to do with that then just health care.
 
Last edited:
So when Steven Crowder had a camera and walked to the clinic, saw it was closed on the weekend, went to the emergency room, waited for many hours before walking out because he couldn't see anybody without waiting many more, etc., that was all just made up? The woman telling the story about her Mom just made that up? The receptionists, nurses, and doctors talking about the long wait times just made that up?

huge wait times here too in ER and for specialists. I gave you link to international studies. Most countries with single payer are faster than USA and why not??
We have the dumbest socialist system in the world and it costs 2-3 times as much as others.
 
So when Steven Crowder had a camera and walked to the clinic, saw it was closed on the weekend, went to the emergency room, waited for many hours before walking out because he couldn't see anybody without waiting many more, etc., that was all just made up? The woman telling the story about her Mom just made that up? The receptionists, nurses, and doctors talking about the long wait times just made that up?

EDIT: About life expectancy, they live like 3 years longer on average from what I saw. There is a lot more to do with that then just health care.

yes 3 years longer. they have a orderly heath care system and an orderly society in general so its not surprising
 
huge wait times here too in ER and for specialists. I gave you link to international studies. Most countries with single payer are faster than USA and why not??
We have the dumbest socialist system in the world and it costs 2-3 times as much as others.

That's a huge false equivocation. They were waiting for hours and hours at the actual facility. They were waiting years to get into a doctor to the point that many people just wouldn't go. One guy told his story about how he had a skin condition and it took awhile to see if his medicine was working or not, and by the time he noticed it wasn't working, he was going to have to wait a long time to go back and get a new medicine. Do this a few times and it would be years and years before he could solve his simple skin condition.

This is nothing like what people in the USA are facing with specialists. I should know. I see a neurologist. The wait is 6 months from when I schedule, but if it's urgent they can squeeze me in earlier. And neurology is one of those niche fields that has much longer waiting times than others because there are so few neurologists since it takes so long to become one and there are so many people that need to see neurologists. It's okay if you like the Canadian system better, but don't lie to people like this (or be so uninformed that if you aren't lying you are being negligently immoral with your misinformation).
 
That's a huge false equivocation. They were waiting for hours and hours at the actual facility. They were waiting years to get into a doctor to the point that many people just wouldn't go. One guy told his story about how he had a skin condition and it took awhile to see if his medicine was working or not, and by the time he noticed it wasn't working, he was going to have to wait a long time to go back and get a new medicine. Do this a few times and it would be years and years before he could solve his simple skin condition.

This is nothing like what people in the USA are facing with specialists. I should know. I see a neurologist. The wait is 6 months from when I schedule, but if it's urgent they can squeeze me in earlier. And neurology is one of those niche fields that has much longer waiting times than others because there are so few neurologists since it takes so long to become one and there are so many people that need to see neurologists. It's okay if you like the Canadian system better, but don't lie to people like this (or be so uninformed that if you aren't lying you are being negligently immoral with your misinformation).

America's waiting times are the worst in the developed world - The ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...waiting-times.../AFGIxr2G_blog.html
May 13, 2011 - It's an unfortunate quirk of international health-care policy that Canada and England, the two countries that do struggle with waiting times, ...
 
yes 3 years longer. they have a orderly heath care system and an orderly society in general so its not surprising

There's a lot more that can go into that than just health care. If we banned guns, for instance, deaths may go down and life expectancy up, but we'd be less free as a country. We could modify our culture to take away fast food, which allows the poor to get a restaurant-style experience instead of the middle and upper classes to get life expectancy up. You can't just blame health care. There are also a lot of issues that aren't measure by life expectancy in health care, like the woman who lost both her legs after not being operated on. She won't die because of it, but her quality of life went way down.
 
There's a lot more that can go into that than just health care. If we banned guns, for instance, deaths may go down and life expectancy up, but we'd be less free as a country. We could modify our culture to take away fast food, which allows the poor to get a restaurant-style experience instead of the middle and upper classes to get life expectancy up. You can't just blame health care. There are also a lot of issues that aren't measure by life expectancy in health care, like the woman who lost both her legs after not being operated on. She won't die because of it, but her quality of life went way down.

as I said they have an orderly health care system and an orderly society so its not surprising they live longer.
 
America's waiting times are the worst in the developed world - The ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...waiting-times.../AFGIxr2G_blog.html
May 13, 2011 - It's an unfortunate quirk of international health-care policy that Canada and England, the two countries that do struggle with waiting times, ...

This is pure propaganda and from 2011, which doesn't surprise me given that it's written by Ezra Klein. Even intellectuals that once liked him like Sam Harris have caught onto his tricks. There's a difference between a wait time and not getting a surgery because one doesn't have money for it. Both are problems, but to conflate these issues is to set the discussion back. The funny thing is that I want our system reformed, but when you guys say stuff like this I'm forced to defend the system adamantly.
 
as I said they have an orderly health care system and an orderly society so its not surprising they live longer.

They also eat different foods, their population is almost 300M fewer, etc.
 
This is pure propaganda and from 2011, which doesn't surprise me given that it's written by Ezra Klein. Even intellectuals that once liked him like Sam Harris have caught onto his tricks. There's a difference between a wait time and not getting a surgery because one doesn't have money for it. Both are problems, but to conflate these issues is to set the discussion back. The funny thing is that I want our system reformed, but when you guys say stuff like this I'm forced to defend the system adamantly.

why defend a system that costs 3 times as much?? its a complete failure. A family of four could save $25,000 a year with a capitalist system. That's huge!!
 
huge wait times here too in ER and for specialists. I gave you link to international studies. Most countries with single payer are faster than USA and why not??
We have the dumbest socialist system in the world and it costs 2-3 times as much as others.

Actually it is very difficult to compare wait times, and international studies are not definitive.

A majority of the countries studied monitor national waiting times and have some type of national waiting time care guarantee. This implies that waiting time is an issue of concern. In a study from 2003 of waiting times in OECD countries, Siciliani and Hurst concluded that “waiting times” is a serious health policy issue in 12 of the countries included in that study (Australia, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Sweden, and the United Kingdom). Waiting times were not recorded administratively in a second group of countries (Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Japan, Luxembourg, Switzerland, and the United States) but the authors wrote that they were anecdotally (informally) reported to be low [21]. Our study shows that eight years later, the same countries still record waiting times.

...In countries where waiting times are not registered and reported, accessibility may still be an issue. France's lack of national monitoring is often cited as evidence that the country has no waiting time problems. However, the large regional differences in terms of services provided and number of doctors have led to inequities in access [38]. Greece suffers from long waiting times, and informal payments to “jump the queue” are common [50]. In Germany the debate has revolved around the fact that people who are privately insured have faster access to health care [30], [31], [51]. In Austria, researchers have found that privately insured patients have faster access and they have refuted the notion that the country has no waiting times [52]. In the United States, access to care also varies with socioeconomic status and geographic area [53].

Sweden has repeatedly been mentioned as a country with relatively long waiting times [10], [18], but this cannot be confirmed, as it is not possible to compare to other countries using official national statistics.

Also, for countries in which similar definitions of the starting point for the measurement have been used, referral processes and patient journey after the measurement start may vary. There is no clear pattern in reported waiting times that could suggest that one system would be better than the other. However, this further illustrates the limitation of the current input data for an international comparison as attempted in this study.
National level data can hide inequity within a country. Some people might enjoy better availability than others based on geographic, gender-related, socio-economic or cultural factors [19].

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168851013001759#tbl0005
 
RED: I agree, but why should a disabled, elderly, etc. person have as much as a rich person? ]

Well.. say the poor person that has paid into medicare their whole life and never used it... get less healthcare.. than a rich person that paid into medicare.. but has take out far more than they ever put in... still get better healthcare?

Because it's okay for you to have more than me if you are a rich doctor and have more than me.
sure.. IF I am actually paying in differently etc. but in the case of my employees... they pay into the system as much as I do... we have the same insurance.. and I am an employee as well. I also happen to be the CEO. In fact.. since I now have had to use the insurance more this last two years... many of my employees have basically BOUGHT me that Lamborghini.. because those employees paying into our healthcare insurance.. helped subsidize when I took out for my healthcare needs.

Its how insurance works. In insurance.. everyone is subsidizing everyone else. Its not like buying a Lamborghini.

That logic does not follow, unless I'm misunderstanding you. The reason that only 12% of those on Medicaid are working full or part-time is because most of them aren't working at all
right.. which shows that when it comes to the WORKING POOR..only a small portion has Medicaid.. while the rest have other insurance or no insurance... and since we have only about 10% of americans without health insurance.. it proves my point that most of the working poor are getting health insurance through their employer.
And even of the poor who have non-publicly-funded insurance, any payment not paid gets passed down to the taxpayer
Actually not true.. it gets passed to anyone with insurance.. in fact.. most notably it gets passed onto employer insurance plans and workers comp.

So you know when an uninsured poor person goes to the doctor and has a $5000 bill and never pays it? That gets paid for by the taxpayer, not the hospital.
Actually not really the taxpayer.. maybe a small portion.. but most of that is actually taken up by private insurances because they pay so much more.

That's simply not true. Most people would be familiar with a part-time employee not getting benefits while a full-time employee does
No.. that's simply true.. as I point out.. you have added..."part time vs full time".

There are different levels of insurance that can be offered with restrictions.
Right.. like salaried vs hourly...

But the fact is.. its pretty restricted.. and in many cases.. as is with my company and almost all of my patients.. if they are eligible for healthcare isurance and their employer provides it... its not based on whether they are "rich" or not.
 
why defend a system that costs 3 times as much?? its a complete failure. A family of four could save $25,000 a year with a capitalist system. That's huge!!

Yeah.. please go ahead and tell us all exactly how your "capitalist system" would work.

Please explain in detail.. (this will be fun).
 
There's a lot more that can go into that than just health care. If we banned guns, for instance, deaths may go down and life expectancy up, but we'd be less free as a country. .

Actually deaths would likely remain the same as well as life expectancy. the only thing that would go down is "gun deaths"/.
 
Back
Top Bottom