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More recent evidence that capitalism would reduce health care costs 80%

James972 said:
until you have Republican capitalist competition in an industry you have no idea what true costs are. Do you understand? USSR had 15% of our standard of living because there was no competition and huge huge waste and inefficiency. Hospitals now employ many MD's. Here they make $400,0000 in Germany the make $65,000.
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85% of the population of Germany are part of the government run medical system, not a free market system.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Better that then how the Really Stupid People in Australia, Canada, Japan, NZ, and Western Europe do it, huh?
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now idea what you are struggling to say. Care to try again? What is "it" ??
 
wolfsgirl said:
85% of the population of Germany are part of the government run medical system, not a free market system.
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so??????? you said hospital labor costs were 59% and could not be reduced. I taught you that in Europe labor is a tiny fraction of what it is here proving that hospital staff will work for a tiny fraction of what they work for here now. Do you understand.
 
The premise of the OP is faulty. All health care systems are capitalist, whether they are subsidized or not. Supply and demand still determine costs. All that changes is who the primary payer is. When the primary payer is government, the government will also set rules to favor a reduced cost environment. That's not socialism, it's just business.

The data on this is pretty clear. The next leading developed nation pays significantly less for health care than we do, at the same or better quality. Americans are paying an arm and a leg for substandard care. Prices are inflated by providers and HMOs. Insurance rates are high because of a non-competitive model. In Canada some services are private and can be paid for with private insurance, the rates of which are much lower because companies have to compete in a more limited market against public health care.

Our health care systems are a bloated bureaucracy with bad priorities. People who continue to champion our backward system have been indoctrinated by an old era of fear of the red tide. It makes economic and moral sense to at least partly socialize health care.
 
James972 said:
so??????? you said hospital labor costs were 59% and could not be reduced. I taught you that in Europe labor is a tiny fraction of what it is here proving that hospital staff will work for a tiny fraction of what they work for here now. Do you understand.
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The average German primary care doctor makes about $136k.
The average US primary care doctor makes $195k.

Not an 80% difference. Do you understand?
 
James972 said:
1) we know from examples like East/West Germany that communists live at about 20% of capitalist standards of living,

2) recent survey of routine appendectomy surgery is socialist CA showed range of $5k to $55k,

3) CBS evening news this week had story about how shopping for drugs reduced price from $700 to $42 for one prescription,

4) neighbor recently complained to Dr. about shortness of breath while playing ice hockey. $11,000 in tests later one cardiologist said borderline pulmonary hypertension, another said not really, ignore it and enjoy hockey. Where's IBM's Watson? Veterinarian said very similar tests for animals on very similar machines would cost $850.
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Yes paying for the uninsured drives up hospital costs dramatically. But we now know you don't need insurance until you are sick or injured. It is the Trump way.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Yeah, look at all the hundreds of millions starving to death in Western Europe, Australia, Canada, Japan, and NZ!!!! 'Cause socialism, don'tcha know!
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Glen, OMG those countries were recreated by America after WW2 in America's image. In fact they have lower corporate taxes and depend less on top 1% than America does. They are no more socialist than USA. Do you understand now?
 
iguanaman said:
Yes paying for the uninsured drives up hospital costs dramatically. But we now know you don't need insurance until you are sick or injured. It is the Trump way.
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does this mean you favor capitalist or socialist health care or that you have no idea??
 
wolfsgirl said:
The average German primary care doctor makes about $136k.
The average US primary care doctor makes $195k.

Not an 80% difference. Do you understand?
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nobody is talking about primary care doctors!! Notice how you are trying to evade subject which was about cost of capitalist health care versus socialist health care?
 
Northern Light said:
The premise of the OP is faulty. All health care systems are capitalist,.
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actually medicare medicaid Schip community health clinics, Tricare, IMS etc etc are not capitalist. I suggest you look up term before you post on it..
 
Northern Light said:
Our health care systems are a bloated bureaucracy with bad priorities..
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very true there is no Republican capitalist competition. In CA you can pay between $6k and 55K for routine surgery. Under capitalism prices are published and competitive and thus very very low. Do you understand?
 
James972 said:
nobody is talking about primary care doctors!! Notice how you are trying to evade subject which was about cost of capitalist health care versus socialist health care?
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Primary care doctors are also staff of hospitals. They count in the labor cost percentage of the cost to run a hospital.
German RNs (hospital staff) make $69k.
US RNs (hospital staff) make $67k.

If the cost is nearly the same, then how do you plan on cutting the cost of labor in hospitals by 80%?
 
James972 said:
does this mean you favor capitalist or socialist health care or that you have no idea??
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I favor a plan where EVERYONE is enrolled. That will give the lowest costs per person. It really isn't rocket science. Insuring only the old and sick is what got us in this mess to begin with. The rest just depend on "free" hospital emergency rooms that are far from free. It is the worst possible system for costs and outcomes.
 
iguanaman said:
Yes paying for the uninsured drives up hospital costs dramatically. But we now know you don't need insurance until you are sick or injured. It is the Trump way.
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So, you think we should only treat persons that had taken out insurance, do you. That makes sense.
 
James972 said:
very true there is no Republican capitalist competition. In CA you can pay between $6k and 55K for routine surgery. Under capitalism prices are published and competitive and thus very very low. Do you understand?
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So you intend to "shop around" if you have a heart attack? Good luck with that. HC is not suited to capitalism, there is nothing more heartless than the drive to profit from the sick and injured.
 
wolfsgirl said:
Primary care doctors are also staff of hospitals. They count in the labor cost percentage of the cost to run a hospital.
German RNs (hospital staff) make $69k.
US RNs (hospital staff) make $67k.

If the cost is nearly the same, then how do you plan on cutting the cost of labor in hospitals by 80%?
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as I said you have have no idea what true costs are until you operate in a competitive environment year in an year out. I'm sure the hospitals in CA study that charge $55k for routine surgery think they need that much while hospitals that charge $5k know better. Do you understand now?
do you understand that the car companies that charged 10 years wages to buy a car in USSR thought they needed that much but without daily competition to make them better and better they really have no idea. Do you understand now?
 
iguanaman said:
So you intend to "shop around" if you have a heart attack?
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no, prices would be published so you and your doctor would know long before who charged most and most likely those that charged too much would have long ago been driven out of business. Do you understand?
 
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iguanaman said:
So you intend to "shop around" if you have a heart attack? Good luck with that. HC is not suited to capitalism, there is nothing more heartless than the drive to profit from the sick and injured.
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Health Care vs Health Insurance.

THESE 2 are NOT the same.


The models are not the same. The RISK retention is NOT the same... This is the biggest problem


In peoples, mind... People see Health CARE as a right.......

the current MODEL is Health Insurance which is a RISK based evaluations. WHICH the current MODEL IT IS NOT A RIGHT


You want health Care you need to change the current Model.


LOOK up insurance. INSURANCE 101 - Insurance is the "SPREAD if RISK" To substantiate the premium you need to evaluate the RISK..... When we added the "Prior Condition Exclusion" you effectively destroyed the "Spread of Risk" You accepted all risk and devalued the whole system.


Had this conversation with someone, there are 2 types of Health risk.

1) A person that chooses NOT to take care of themselves... proper eating, exercise, self control etc
2) A person that is Hereditary with health issues.

is it FAIR to charge both PEOPLE the same premium with PERSON 1 CHOSE to destroy their body?

American Society has changed and "Gluttony" is no joke, When Milk cost twice as much as a sugary drink. When you go to McDonalds and ask for large coke in the US... Go to Japan their large Coke is like an American Kids size....


HEALTH Insurance.... was risk based, if you are higher risk you go in a certain tier and pay X premium due to your exposure.... you are lower risk, you still pay in but at a different tier...because your "usage/risk" is lower.


Now its Changed to Health Care, where "EVERY" should have health care... but the "INSURANCE" companies, medical fields, hospitals do NOT charge or have their invoicing/services/billings meant for universal care. its STILL RISK BASED charged....


Our system is so @SS backwards and our needs/wants/demands are contradicting..... FIX. the way we evaluated the health market and then figure out how to charge both PREMIUM and SERVICE and we then can have an effective system...

This is where I agree "Capitalism" could be effective.

If you WANT X service.......then you PAY for that service..... meaning, if you can only afford so much.... then if there is a DOCTOR willing to take you for a negotiated amount... you get what you get.


If you can AFFORD the best medical care... then you get it........


LIFE is NOT fair... I will never have a Ferrari..in my Garage... hell I dont even have a garage... I have to find street parking... But is it SOMEONE else's fault and should I demand that I get a Garage and more so a Ferrari? No I get what I can and do the best with what I have.......
 
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iguanaman said:
there is nothing more heartless than the drive to profit from the sick and injured.
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agree thats why we support capitalism. The drive is to help people which explains why people are far better off under capitalism than socialism. Ever heard of Cuba/ Florida?? NOtice the most obvious things are painfully complex to a liberal?
 
wolfsgirl said:
85% of the population of Germany are part of the government run medical system, not a free market system.
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It might be the government that is indirectly responsible for the public insurance system, but it is the beneficiaries that pay for it. But you are quite right that it is not a free market system in any real way.
 
James972 said:
1) we know from examples like East/West Germany that communists live at about 20% of capitalist standards of living,

2) recent survey of routine appendectomy surgery is socialist CA showed range of $5k to $55k,

3) CBS evening news this week had story about how shopping for drugs reduced price from $700 to $42 for one prescription,

4) neighbor recently complained to Dr. about shortness of breath while playing ice hockey. $11,000 in tests later one cardiologist said borderline pulmonary hypertension, another said not really, ignore it and enjoy hockey. Where's IBM's Watson? Veterinarian said very similar tests for animals on very similar machines would cost $850.
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Please get some actual education realize your cult leader is a fraud and has been lying to you then maybe just maybe you wont make such a fool of yourself all the time
 
iguanaman said:
I favor a plan where EVERYONE is enrolled. .
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I asked if you favored capitalism or socialism not whether you favored a plan where everyone was enrolled. Confused?
 
James972 said:
agree thats why we support capitalism. The drive is to help people which explains why people are far better off under capitalism than socialism. Ever heard of Cuba/ Florida?? NOtice the most obvious things are painfully complex to a liberal?
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Most capitalist countries have socialized HC and pay a lot less for better outcomes. Actually it is not most, it is every capitalist western nation but the USA. Do you want a private military, police and fire Dept. too? Or is capitalism not good for those things ?
 
James972 said:
I asked if you favored capitalism or socialism not whether you favored a plan where everyone was enrolled. Confused?
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Think real hard now. What HC plan has everyone enrolled?
 
James972 said:
as I said you have have no idea what true costs are until you operate in a competitive environment year in an year out. I'm sure the hospitals in CA study that charge $55k for routine surgery think they need that much while hospitals that charge $5k know better. Do you understand now?
do you understand that the car companies that charged 10 years wages to buy a car in USSR thought they needed that much but without daily competition to make them better and better they really have no idea. Do you understand now?
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What hospitals? What type of surgery? What were the conditions of the patients? Any other issues that may complicate?

I can quote the cost of 4 different places to set a broken arm, but the actual cost will depend on a multitude of factors. Is it a simple clean break? Any other medical issues that may complicate the treatment? Where the exact location of the break is. Is it a compound fracture? How many x rays are needed? Is it one of the top specialists in setting broken arms? Will anesthesia be needed? What type of setting material is used?

Please link to the two hospitals charges for two EXACTLY the SAME surgeries. It's impossible since no two surgeries are EXACTLY the SAME. No two hospitals have the exact same operational expenses.

Do you not think that hospitals have competition now? If so how do you propose one is to shop around?
 
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