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Obamacare is helping patients get to the doctor and pay their medical bills

Vern said:
Jog, that's the most honest thing you've ever posted. Yes, there are folks here that just like to badmouth and complain and they aren't really interested in the nuts and bolts. thank you for admitting it.
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Now that is as good an argument for your various opinions as you have made.
 
joG said:
Now that is as good an argument for your various opinions as you have made.
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did I say no to tony as I did?
 
Glen Contrarian said:
You're claiming that pharmaceuticals, outpatient therapies, outpatient surgeries, durable medical equipment, and anesthesia are ALL not covered in Canada, France, and/or Australia?

References, please.
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Depends on whether you are talking about Canada or Australia or France. but they are examples of the gaps that public insurance in these countries have.

While the health care system in Canada covers basic services, including primary care physicians and hospitals, there are many services that are not covered. These include things like dental services, optometrists, and prescription medications
The main reason many choose to purchase private insurance is to supplement primary health coverage. For those requiring services that may not be covered under provincial health insurance such as corrective lenses, medications, or home care, a private insurance plan offsets such medical expenses.
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http://www.canadian-healthcare.org/page4.html

Gaps in the delivery of publicly-funded physiotherapy across Canada are also evident in the high wait times and long wait lists experienced by Canadians in many parts of the country.(1) For example, rural residents on Prince Edward Island who need publicly funded outpatient physiotherapy services may have to wait a year, or even longer in some cases
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In Australia: Their medicare:

Medicare does not cover:
•examinations for life insurance, superannuation or memberships for which someone else is responsible (for example, a compensation insurer, employer or government authority),
•ambulance services;
•most dental examinations and treatment,
•most physiotherapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy, eye therapy, chiropractic services, podiatry or psychology services,
•acupuncture (unless part of a doctor's consultation),
•glasses and contact lenses,
•hearing aids and other appliances.
•home nursing.
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The upshot is.. the government system in all these countries. provides far less than the insurance coverage that I have now and most americans have.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
No we're not. Your quality of care is zero if you can't afford it, which tens of millions of Americans can't. One category we're in the top 5 for is heart attack mortality so that's nice.

Keep defending paying twice as much to get much less. What a great system.
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Actually yes we are. And your quality of care can still be very good in the US if you can't afford it.

Heart attack mortality? Shall we discuss our lifestyles, our obesity rates, stress etc.. which all affect our cardiac risk?
Keep defending paying twice as much to get much less. What a great system.
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Like I stated.. I pay less and get more. In Canada.. government insurance doesn't pay for outpatient services, physiotherapy or pharma. its why the Canadian system still has private health insurance.

In france. The government system doesn't pay for things like anesthesia for certain surgeries. Its one reason that France has private health insurance called Mutelle's

Australia the same.

Listen.. you can keep making stuff up about American healthcare and I can keep bringing you back to reality.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
I have all of that and more including dental for 300 Euro a month in Germany and I haven't paid a cent out of pocket in years despite many doctor visits and surgeries. You are wrong because you've never experienced anything else.



It's a blatant and easily verifiable lie from a man desperate to prove he's not being taken for a ride.
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Yawn.. that's nice.. but I HAVE experience other countries healthcare. I have WORKED and studied in other countries healthcare.. including Germany.. though it was almost 2 decades ago.

and I please be aware that I did not lie about Canada or France or Australia. I provided the facts that they don't pay for all the things that American insurance does.

Now.. I am sure you love the German system. Most people in socialized systems like Germany love their systems.. because 1. they don't see out of pocket costs.. because its easier that they just pay higher taxes.

2. Most people aren't really sick.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Hey Jaeger19 - you've got at least three requests for references: from me, and from others from Australia and Germany. It's your turn - you made the claim, so all we're doing is asking you to back it up!
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Hey glen.. I did.. so are you willing to be honest and apologize for your comments!..
 
jaeger19 said:
Yawn.. that's nice.. but I HAVE experience other countries healthcare. I have WORKED and studied in other countries healthcare.. including Germany.. though it was almost 2 decades ago.

and I please be aware that I did not lie about Canada or France or Australia. I provided the facts that they don't pay for all the things that American insurance does.

Now.. I am sure you love the German system. Most people in socialized systems like Germany love their systems.. because 1. they don't see out of pocket costs.. because its easier that they just pay higher taxes.

2. Most people aren't really sick.
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Why don't you post your "basic" Healthcare plan here, including monthly rate, deductible, and everything it covers and we'll go dollar for dollar, Line for line and see who's getting more. If you have a basic plan in the US you're going to either be paying an astronomical sum or you'll have a very high deductible and limited coverage.

There is no way in hell you're insuring yourself and your dependents with full coverage of EVERYTHING including dental with no deductibles for less than 350 USD per month. You're making a bunch of compromises and I made none.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Why don't you post your "basic" Healthcare plan here, including monthly rate, deductible, and everything it covers and we'll go dollar for dollar, Line for line and see who's getting more. If you have a basic plan in the US you're going to either be paying an astronomical sum or you'll have a very high deductible and limited coverage.

There is no way in hell you're insuring yourself and your dependents with full coverage of EVERYTHING including dental with no deductibles for less than 350 USD per month. You're making a bunch of compromises and I made none.
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Well..in all likelihood your insurance is being subsidized by your employer. And you are paying 350 US for coverage beyond that.

If we calculate what I "pay" for healthcare insurance.. that way.. since my employer pays it all.. I pay zero for full coverage.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Yes they do. America pays more than any nation on earth by a long **** but isn't ranked even in the top half in most health-care outcomes.

0011_health-outcomes-full.gif


Do you enjoy paying more to get less?
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Thanks for that chart. During the Obamacare debate, it was a given that America's health care system was "thew best in the world" according to both sides. What as true than is still true, the only area where the US exceeds by far any other system is in waiting times for specialists and equipment. What is missed THERE is the "access" isn't there. In most plans pre Obamacare you could NOT get coverage for specialists until you had exhausted all other treatment options.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Thanks for that chart. During the Obamacare debate, it was a given that America's health care system was "thew best in the world" according to both sides. What as true than is still true, the only area where the US exceeds by far any other system is in waiting times for specialists and equipment. What is missed THERE is the "access" isn't there. In most plans pre Obamacare you could NOT get coverage for specialists until you had exhausted all other treatment options.
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Actually most plans pre obamacare you got coverage for specialists rather easily. And most plans post obamacare you still get coverage for specialists rather easily. American tends to shine on timeliness of care, and effectiveness of care and patient centered care.
 
jaeger19 said:
Actually most plans pre obamacare you got coverage for specialists rather easily. And most plans post obamacare you still get coverage for specialists rather easily. American tends to shine on timeliness of care, and effectiveness of care and patient centered care.
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Why would I believe that without a citation?

I mean it's not like you have a record for the truth
 
Fearandloathing said:
Why would I believe that without a citation?

I mean it's not like you have a record for the truth
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Interesting. So why would we believe YOU without a citation? Cripes man.. what makes you an authority on AMERICAN healthcare? I run an American healthcare business.

My credibility is actually well established here.
 
jaeger19 said:
Interesting. So why would we believe YOU without a citation? Cripes man.. what makes you an authority on AMERICAN healthcare? I run an American healthcare business.

My credibility is actually well established here.
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I am not the one making claims, you are.

Glad you wun an American health care business, yeah
 
Fearandloathing said:
I am not the one making claims, you are.

Glad you wun an American health care business, yeah
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Ummm sir... you ARE making claims.

FearandLoathing said:
Thanks for that chart. During the Obamacare debate, it was a given that America's health care system was "thew best in the world" according to both sides. What as true than is still true, the only area where the US exceeds by far any other system is in waiting times for specialists and equipment. What is missed THERE is the "access" isn't there. In most plans pre Obamacare you could NOT get coverage for specialists until you had exhausted all other treatment options.
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Sir.. that seems like pretty bold claim there.

Now..since you are so interesting in credibility. Please provide a link that shows that "most plans pre obamacare you could NOT get coverage for specialists until you had exhausted all other treatment options".

.. particularly since the ironic fact is that one of the reasons American healthcare costs more than other countries is BECAUSE of our easier access to specialists.
 
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jaeger19 said:
Hey glen.. I did.. so are you willing to be honest and apologize for your comments!..
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You're telling me I need to apologize to you for asking for references? I did not insult you and I did not call you a liar, so what should I apologize for? All I did was point out that three people - myself and two others from overseas - were asking for references...but it seems that counts as an insult in your book.

That being said, look at what you did in comment #28: for instance, you pointed out how Canada's health care system doesn't cover pharmaceuticals...but what you did NOT say was something I easily found, that Canada is the only developed country in the world with a universal healthcare system that does not cover essential medications. What's more, you pointed out how Canada's system didn't cover dental and optometrist services...but unless you're on a "Cadillac" plan here in America, yours doesn't either...I've got perhaps THE best health care plan in America - military retirement - and it sure as heck doesn't cover dental, and only provides limited optometrist services!

What's more, I found what seems to be the page that is where you got your information for Australia...and according to that reference, much of that is not covered is ALSO not covered by bronze-level Obamacare plans. If you want to pay for higher-level Obamacare-compliant plans, sure, they can cover most of that...but the same is true in Australia - if you're willing to pay more for additional private insurance, most of those will be covered.

In other words, you made a sweeping statement, but the reality is quite a bit different from your claim. Your claim was partially accurate...and partially pants-on-fire wrong.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
You're telling me I need to apologize to you for asking for references? I did not insult you and I did not call you a liar, so what should I apologize for? All I did was point out that three people - myself and two others from overseas - were asking for references...but it seems that counts as an insult in your book.

That being said, look at what you did in comment #28: for instance, you pointed out how Canada's health care system doesn't cover pharmaceuticals...but what you did NOT say was something I easily found, that Canada is the only developed country in the world with a universal healthcare system that does not cover essential medications. What's more, you pointed out how Canada's system didn't cover dental and optometrist services...but unless you're on a "Cadillac" plan here in America, yours doesn't either...I've got perhaps THE best health care plan in America - military retirement - and it sure as heck doesn't cover dental, and only provides limited optometrist services!

What's more, I found what seems to be the page that is where you got your information for Australia...and according to that reference, much of that is not covered is ALSO not covered by bronze-level Obamacare plans. If you want to pay for higher-level Obamacare-compliant plans, sure, they can cover most of that...but the same is true in Australia - if you're willing to pay more for additional private insurance, most of those will be covered.

In other words, you made a sweeping statement, but the reality is quite a bit different from your claim. Your claim was partially accurate...and partially pants-on-fire wrong.
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BS... I saw your taunt. and your comments. You didn't "just ask for references"..

So.. I said that Canada doesn't cover pharma. and guess what I WAS RIGHT... Which is EXACTLY What I said.

By the way.. the also don't pay for homecare services and some outpatient services that ARE covered here in most insurances.

And as far as Australia... you seem to forget that even under bronze level plans... MORE THINGS ARE COVERED THAN IN AUSTRAILA. and most people with insurance have better than bronze level Obamacare. YOU do..

And going to an Australia government plan.. or a Canadian government plan WOULD BE WORSE FOR YOU.

EVERYTHING I said was accurate... and unknown to you. Its obvious you didn't know that Canada government insurance doesn't pay for things that most americans take for granted in their insurance. Neither does Australia.

RapidAlpaca asked if people like pay more for less.. the reality is that you have more coverage than the Canadian government insurance or Australian government insurance.

sorry.. but no "pants on fire wrong" on my part.
 
obamascare one day will be completely eliminated.
 
PTF said:
obamascare one day will be completely eliminated.
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It was eliminated in Texas about a year ago. What remains are the effects. There are no ACA plans here, but lo and behold, there is an HC exchange. Same thing, different name. It keeps the red state happy!
 
Insurance in general is messy and expensive. The fact is there is no reason that it should work the way that it does.

We need a different system.

I still like a system similar to Singapore. They do very well with their insurance and people still have safety nets.
Their government pays less and it is mostly in people to cover themselves.

Their tax system enables people to take care of themselves especially can the government.
Their too rate is 25%. The average American in making 56k a year would pay about 4% in taxes.

Their government is not hurting for money.
In fact they are running surpluses wi their tax structure everything liberals say can't happen.

They have no capital gain or estate taxes.
https://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/In...es-Foreigners/Sample-Income-Tax-Calculations/

Their health system is setup so hat people pay for their own doctor care.
Insurance is only used if a person needs hospital care or anything else major life affecting.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/heal...surance-be-costing-you-money-pharmacy-n811171
The fact is that cash is cheaper than insurance.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Most of this post is "it never happened to my parents therefore that's not true" and the rest is just bull**** you made up. Insurance in Germany is 15% of wages but the employer matches it so that it's effectively 7.5% for the individual. As long as we're talking about parents, my elderly parents have seen their costs go up and up with their age, mine won't, and they're paying anywhere from 1500-2000 USD a month. Our system is broken and no amount of "nuh uhs" is going to change that.

The bottom line is that most European countries get better health outcomes and better coverage for about half the per capita price Americans are paying.
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You seem not to understand that one example is valid falsification of a general rule like the one you postulated. Also it is a lie that the falsification took up "most of the post".

Also, you are wrong in your 15 percent (the average this year is 15.7) and neglects the non optional 2.35 percent added on for care. While it is true that the employer pays a little less than half, that is a sleight of hand to fool the employee ie the voters. If the company did not have to pay that sum the wages could be that much higher and anyone that believes he isn't paying is kidding himself or unthinking.

As to the "better health outcomes" we have talked about that. You have just copy and pasted a false argument. An as to the double as expensive you are right that the US pays too much of the R&D costs of developing drugs and treatments, which other country's profit from as free riders.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Thanks for that chart. During the Obamacare debate, it was a given that America's health care system was "thew best in the world" according to both sides. What as true than is still true, the only area where the US exceeds by far any other system is in waiting times for specialists and equipment. What is missed THERE is the "access" isn't there. In most plans pre Obamacare you could NOT get coverage for specialists until you had exhausted all other treatment options.
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Nota bene: The numbers are correct. The conclusions i.e. interpretations are debatably false. They disregard non-healthcare factors like the opioides usage, obesity numbers or ethnicity specific problems as well as ignoring the large proportion of global development costs for drugs or medical equipment.
 
ludin said:
Insurance in general is messy and expensive. The fact is there is no reason that it should work the way that it does.

We need a different system.

I still like a system similar to Singapore. They do very well with their insurance and people still have safety nets.
Their government pays less and it is mostly in people to cover themselves.

Their tax system enables people to take care of themselves especially can the government.
Their too rate is 25%. The average American in making 56k a year would pay about 4% in taxes.

Their government is not hurting for money.
In fact they are running surpluses wi their tax structure everything liberals say can't happen.

They have no capital gain or estate taxes.
https://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/In...es-Foreigners/Sample-Income-Tax-Calculations/

Their health system is setup so hat people pay for their own doctor care.
Insurance is only used if a person needs hospital care or anything else major life affecting.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/heal...surance-be-costing-you-money-pharmacy-n811171
The fact is that cash is cheaper than insurance.
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Yeah.. I think we have been over this... I seriously doubt you would want Singapores system.

Unlike in America, where the government’s main role is in managing insurance programs, Singapore’s government controls and pays for much of the medical system itself — hospitals are overwhelmingly public, a large portion of doctors work directly for the state, patients can only use their Medisave accounts to purchase preapproved drugs, and the government subsidizes patients can only use their Medisave accounts to purchase preapproved drugs, and the government subsidizes many medical bills directly.
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jaeger19 said:
Yeah.. I think we have been over this... I seriously doubt you would want Singapores system.
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You still don't read. I said similar. Similar means not exactly the same. Do you not understand what this word means?
Sorry to be snarky but good grief. How many times do I have to point it out.

Their government pays very little. Out of all the healthcare spending their government only spends 33% or so.
The rest is paid for by people and businesses.
 
joG said:
Nota bene: The numbers are correct. The conclusions i.e. interpretations are debatably false. They disregard non-healthcare factors like the opioides usage, obesity numbers or ethnicity specific problems as well as ignoring the large proportion of global development costs for drugs or medical equipment.
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Different countries use different standards I
On infant bpdeath as well.

Where we count babies as alive another country would not.

Pthere is so much inconsistent reporting that it is impossible to tell reliably.
 
ludin said:
You still don't read. I said similar. Similar means not exactly the same. Do you not understand what this word means?
Sorry to be snarky but good grief. How many times do I have to point it out.

Their government pays very little. Out of all the healthcare spending their government only spends 33% or so.
The rest is paid for by people and businesses.
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Similar.. similar in what? That most care is paid for by the government? That most hospitals are all public and most providers are public employees (80% of the hospital beds are government hospital beds) I sus.. or that the government has rigid price controls? Or do you want that similar system to FORCE people to put a percentage of their earnings into a medical savings plan.. AND THEN rigidly control what they can spend that money on?

I suggested you do more reading on Singapores system before you say you want a similar system.
 
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