What's with America's problem with socialised healthcare?

Will Marshall · Nov 23, 2017

Righto, so I'm from Australia, and here we have socialised healthcare - healthcare administered by the government. Everybody has it, and we also have private health insurance available - lots of people have both private and public healthcare.

So my question is, what's with America's problem with socialised healthcare? I realize that the majority aren't rabidly for or against it and most of the more overt bickering goes on among Congressmen, but socialised healthcare is great. If anything, most Australians believe it should be expanded, because it DOES lower insurance and healthcare costs.

Is it because of the Republican Party's "free-market-at-all-costs" platform? Are people all just still terrified of socialism? Is there a perception that big government is inherently evil and the expansion of public healthcare will infringe on peoples' civil liberties?

RabidAlpaca · Nov 23, 2017

Republicans would rather see millions of Americans suffer than admit they're ideologically wrong on this issue. To them it's better to pay twice as much per capita for Healthcare ranked in the 30's among other nations where 10s of millions of Americans can't see a doctor at all and the middle class is being crippled with medical debt. I chalk it up mostly to them being extremely uneducated on the subject and putting pure nationalism over the good of the country.

When you grow up being told that America is the best country in the world in every single category and have no other frame of reference you tend to believe it.

Crovax · Nov 23, 2017

Will Marshall said:
Righto, so I'm from Australia, and here we have socialised healthcare - healthcare administered by the government. Everybody has it, and we also have private health insurance available - lots of people have both private and public healthcare.

So my question is, what's with America's problem with socialised healthcare? I realize that the majority aren't rabidly for or against it and most of the more overt bickering goes on among Congressmen, but socialised healthcare is great. If anything, most Australians believe it should be expanded, because it DOES lower insurance and healthcare costs.

Is it because of the Republican Party's "free-market-at-all-costs" platform? Are people all just still terrified of socialism? Is there a perception that big government is inherently evil and the expansion of public healthcare will infringe on peoples' civil liberties?

The view is that government is inherently incompetent because they have no incentive not to be and combine that with allowing them to make life or death decisions for you. A pretty scary combination to most Americans regardless of party affiliation.

Will Marshall · Nov 23, 2017

Crovax said:
The view is that government is inherently incompetent because they have no incentive not to be and combine that with allowing them to make life or death decisions for you. A pretty scary combination to most Americans regardless of party affiliation.

Our government's pretty incompetent, but generally we do fine. But my limited knowledge of American government leads me to believe that the whole "the government is incompetent and we should be afraid of it" thing could be rectified if not for some pretty piss-poor government construction that, generally, is a direct result of that way of thinking. The government lacks real power, and so their solution is to water down and half-ass their solutions to problems until the states will accept them, and it ends up pleasing nobody.

Oborosen · Nov 23, 2017

Will Marshall said:
Righto, so I'm from Australia, and here we have socialised healthcare - healthcare administered by the government. Everybody has it, and we also have private health insurance available - lots of people have both private and public healthcare.

So my question is, what's with America's problem with socialised healthcare? I realize that the majority aren't rabidly for or against it and most of the more overt bickering goes on among Congressmen, but socialised healthcare is great. If anything, most Australians believe it should be expanded, because it DOES lower insurance and healthcare costs.

Is it because of the Republican Party's "free-market-at-all-costs" platform? Are people all just still terrified of socialism? Is there a perception that big government is inherently evil and the expansion of public healthcare will infringe on peoples' civil liberties?

This should help, seeing as some people somehow believe that socialize healthcare is some sort of be all end all plan. Its works, don't get me wrong. But the problem with such a healthcare plan is that the older you get the worse it is going to invariably get for you.

We have people coming here from Canada to flee their own form of healthcare hell, death panels and all.

I do have an old Forbes entry that should help illuminate this for you.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2011/12/19/the-ugly-realities-of-socialized-medicine-are-not-going-away-3/2/

I like my healthcare here in the states, though to be honest the ACA nearly completely destroyed me and that isn't even taking into account how other actions of that administration hindered my business.

joG · Nov 23, 2017

Will Marshall said:
Righto, so I'm from Australia, and here we have socialised healthcare - healthcare administered by the government. Everybody has it, and we also have private health insurance available - lots of people have both private and public healthcare.

So my question is, what's with America's problem with socialised healthcare? I realize that the majority aren't rabidly for or against it and most of the more overt bickering goes on among Congressmen, but socialised healthcare is great. If anything, most Australians believe it should be expanded, because it DOES lower insurance and healthcare costs.

Is it because of the Republican Party's "free-market-at-all-costs" platform? Are people all just still terrified of socialism? Is there a perception that big government is inherently evil and the expansion of public healthcare will infringe on peoples' civil liberties?

The basic idea is as wonderful as socialism and as flawed. Free goods are never a wise way to go and producing private goods publicly is generally a waste of resources no longer available to reach socioeconomic and general welfare optimum. What you seem to gain by 'free' health care, you lose somewhere else.

The problem is protracted and complicated in democracies, where it is used as an instrument to buy votes. We can see this in the US, where the public sector's per beneficiary spending is higher than in the social democracies of Europe.

worksforpigs · Nov 23, 2017

Will Marshall said:
Righto, so I'm from Australia, and here we have socialised healthcare - healthcare administered by the government. Everybody has it, and we also have private health insurance available - lots of people have both private and public healthcare.

Try it in a country with open border problems and massive levels of legal immigration of unskilled third worlders.

What you propose is economic suicide.

joG · Nov 23, 2017

RabidAlpaca said:
Republicans would rather see millions of Americans suffer than admit they're ideologically wrong on this issue. To them it's better to pay twice as much per capita for Healthcare ranked in the 30's among other nations where 10s of millions of Americans can't see a doctor at all and the middle class is being crippled with medical debt. I chalk it up mostly to them being extremely uneducated on the subject and putting pure nationalism over the good of the country.

When you grow up being told that America is the best country in the world in every single category and have no other frame of reference you tend to believe it.

I am not Republican and am more worried about the economics than any ideology, one way or the other. Ideology is for populists buying votes with 'free' goods for which the population cannot see the price tag.

RetiredUSN · Nov 23, 2017

RabidAlpaca said:
Republicans would rather see millions of Americans suffer than admit they're ideologically wrong on this issue. To them it's better to pay twice as much per capita for Healthcare ranked in the 30's among other nations where 10s of millions of Americans can't see a doctor at all and the middle class is being crippled with medical debt. I chalk it up mostly to them being extremely uneducated on the subject and putting pure nationalism over the good of the country.

When you grow up being told that America is the best country in the world in every single category and have no other frame of reference you tend to believe it.

Partisan hackery aside, your beloved democrat ACA hurt just as many poor and middle people class as it helped.

I have a HC Plan................yeah for me!

Damnmit :shock:.............. I can't afford to use it?

Common Sense 1 · Nov 23, 2017

Ask the folks who come to the United States for medical care from Canada.

If you have a cold or the flu their system works great but if you need a big surgery/serious illness they come
to the US.

'The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money'
Margaret Thatcher

HowardBThiname · Nov 23, 2017

RabidAlpaca said:
Republicans would rather see millions of Americans suffer than admit they're ideologically wrong on this issue. To them it's better to pay twice as much per capita for Healthcare ranked in the 30's among other nations where 10s of millions of Americans can't see a doctor at all and the middle class is being crippled with medical debt. I chalk it up mostly to them being extremely uneducated on the subject and putting pure nationalism over the good of the country.

When you grow up being told that America is the best country in the world in every single category and have no other frame of reference you tend to believe it.

Wrong.

Conservatives donate way more to charitable services than do democrats/liberals, but the problem with a program like Obamacare is that it's in bed with Big Pharma and the Insurance Industry.

Seriously, we would pay less money (as a nation) for healthcare if we just paid all the bills of the indigents and allowed those who want private insurance to buy their own.

While Obamacare isn't really socialized, it's fleecing the average citizen and offering coverage that many simply can't afford to use. What good is covering millions of people if they can't use that coverage? The money is all going to line the pockets of the Insurance industry.

Obamacare is crony capitalism at its worst.

But, quit lying about conservatives. They put their own time and money on the table to help the less fortunate, while democrats/liberals won't get their hands dirty.

RabidAlpaca · Nov 23, 2017

joG said:
I am not Republican and am more worried about the economics than any ideology, one way or the other. Ideology is for populists buying votes with 'free' goods for which the population cannot see the price tag.

Yet every UHC system in the world is dramatically cheaper and provides better care to more people. Your issue is ideology, not economics. If you cared about economics you'd be for it.

RetiredUSN said:
Partisan hackery aside, your beloved democrat ACA hurt just as many poor and middle people class as it helped.

I have a HC Plan................yeah for me!

Damnmit :shock:.............. I can't afford to use it?

I was never a fan of the ACA, but if you remember the only reason they attempted this bastardized version of HC is because UHC would never pass. It's hard to pretend that this is all the Dems fault when the GOP spent every iota of their energy trying to make the ACA a failure and adding pork for their corporate buddies.

HowardBThiname said:
Wrong.

Conservatives donate way more to charitable services than do democrats/liberals, but the problem with a program like Obamacare is that it's in bed with Big Pharma and the Insurance Industry.

Seriously, we would pay less money (as a nation) for healthcare if we just paid all the bills of the indigents and allowed those who want private insurance to buy their own.

While Obamacare isn't really socialized, it's fleecing the average citizen and offering coverage that many simply can't afford to use. What good is covering millions of people if they can't use that coverage? The money is all going to line the pockets of the Insurance industry.

Obamacare is crony capitalism at its worst.

But, quit lying about conservatives. They put their own time and money on the table to help the less fortunate, while democrats/liberals won't get their hands dirty.

Too stupid to reply to. "Only Republicans donate to charity therefore I don't have to address the topic of the thread."

ttwtt78640 · Nov 23, 2017

RabidAlpaca said:
Yet every UHC system in the world is dramatically cheaper and provides better care to more people. Your issue is ideology, not economics. If you cared about economics you'd be for it.

I was never a fan of the ACA, but if you remember the only reason they attempted this bastardized version of HC is because UHC would never pass. It's hard to pretend that this is all the Dems fault when the GOP spent every iota of their energy trying to make the ACA a failure and adding pork for their corporate buddies.

Too stupid to reply to. "Only Republicans donate to charity therefore I don't have to address the topic of the thread."

The reason that UHC would never pass is important - a sufficient majority in neither major party supports it.

holbritter · Nov 23, 2017

Oborosen said:
This should help, seeing as some people somehow believe that socialize healthcare is some sort of be all end all plan. Its works, don't get me wrong. But the problem with such a healthcare plan is that the older you get the worse it is going to invariably get for you.

We have people coming here from Canada to flee their own form of healthcare hell, death panels and all.

I do have an old Forbes entry that should help illuminate this for you.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2011/12/19/the-ugly-realities-of-socialized-medicine-are-not-going-away-3/2/

I like my healthcare here in the states, though to be honest the ACA nearly completely destroyed me and that isn't even taking into account how other actions of that administration hindered my business.

Could the difference be that Canada (per the article) has allowed no private healthcare? A combo like in Australia and other places might make the right recipe(?) I'm not sold on either way...all I know is something has got to change. People die there because of the wait...people die here because of the cost.

Oborosen · Nov 23, 2017

holbritter said:
Could the difference be that Canada (per the article) has allowed no private healthcare? A combo like in Australia and other places might make the right recipe(?) I'm not sold on either way...all I know is something has got to change. People die there because of the wait...people die here because of the cost.

Actually Canada has something they call super hospitals now, which are just regular hospitals for us.

joG · Nov 23, 2017

worksforpigs said:
Try it in a country with open border problems and massive levels of legal immigration of unskilled third worlders.

What you propose is economic suicide.

The Eu is beginning to find this problem difficult to deal with based on the conventional interpretation of Human Rights and the divers subsidiary treaties, laws and regulations.

Will Marshall · Nov 23, 2017

So what I've heard is a mixture of pretty decent and reasonable points that I disagree with on an ideological level but can understand, and, y'know, conspiracy theories.

1) So far as I know, the whole idea of people fleeing Canada for America's "superior" healthcare is total heresay, and death panels and people dying in waiting rooms are a Republican fiction.

2) I don't necessarily agree with the ACA, but that's mostly because it's full of compromises that really make no sense and undermine the effectiveness of the bill. There are definitely things to criticize regarding the Affordable Care Act, but its ultimate goal is not one of them.

3) Australia's economy is doing fine. Public healthcare isn't disadvantaging other necessary sectors of the economy - you can blame the Liberal Party for that.

4) Let's not get into the whole "Republicans just wanna murder all the poor people" thing. You can criticize Republican economic policy - I certainly do - but don't use hyperbole, it's childish.

5) We still get immigrants. It's just that generally we lock them up on an island and wait for them to die rather than complain about them being in Arizona.

6) I've noiced this theme in some of the responses, which is that people say "well, I mean, MY concept of socialized healthcare is flawed, so we should just stick with the free market and not bother to try, because, like, not EVERY American is dead". And that really doesn't seem like an adequate solution.

Helix · Nov 23, 2017

What's with America's problem with socialised healthcare?

the right has been convinced that it's horrible by their media. meanwhile, many of them would go bankrupt if they were to get seriously ill. they will then depend on Medicaid if they are financially eligible, which is similar to what most of the first world has by default.

HowardBThiname · Nov 23, 2017

RabidAlpaca said:
Too stupid to reply to. "Only Republicans donate to charity therefore I don't have to address the topic of the thread."

In other words, my post hit a little too close to home for you. And I didn't say "only" Republicans, I just countered your silly claim with the truth.

The fact is, you support a failed system based on crony capitalism.

Fascinating.

CletusWilbury · Nov 23, 2017

Will Marshall said:
So what I've heard is a mixture of pretty decent and reasonable points that I disagree with on an ideological level but can understand, and, y'know, conspiracy theories.

Welcome to debatepolitics.

1) So far as I know, the whole idea of people fleeing Canada for America's "superior" healthcare is total heresay, and death panels and people dying in waiting rooms are a Republican fiction.

There are always some.

5) We still get immigrants. It's just that generally we lock them up on an island and wait for them to die rather than complain about them being in Arizona.

To the argument you are referring to here, I point out that hospitals are required to treat everyone, so you aren't really saving money by not having healthcare for everyone.

6) I've noiced this theme in some of the responses, which is that people say "well, I mean, MY concept of socialized healthcare is flawed, so we should just stick with the free market and not bother to try, because, like, not EVERY American is dead". And that really doesn't seem like an adequate solution.

Some worry about any possible motivation for people not supporting themselves.
Almost all trust the profit motive over the motives of politicians.

CletusWilbury · Nov 23, 2017

HowardBThiname said:
...
Obamacare is crony capitalism at its worst.

But, quit lying about conservatives. They put their own time and money on the table to help the less fortunate, while democrats/liberals won't get their hands dirty.

I can't argue against the crony capitalism charge. I preferred the House 'Obamacare' bill, but the 'government option' didn't make the final bill.

I invite you to comment on my attempt to summarize conservative thinking in my previous post.
reposted:

Some worry about any possible motivation for people not supporting themselves.
Almost all trust the profit motive over the motives of politicians.

DaveFagan · Nov 23, 2017

Will Marshall said:
Righto, so I'm from Australia, and here we have socialised healthcare - healthcare administered by the government. Everybody has it, and we also have private health insurance available - lots of people have both private and public healthcare.

So my question is, what's with America's problem with socialised healthcare? I realize that the majority aren't rabidly for or against it and most of the more overt bickering goes on among Congressmen, but socialised healthcare is great. If anything, most Australians believe it should be expanded, because it DOES lower insurance and healthcare costs.

Is it because of the Republican Party's "free-market-at-all-costs" platform? Are people all just still terrified of socialism? Is there a perception that big government is inherently evil and the expansion of public healthcare will infringe on peoples' civil liberties?

Healthcare and Social Security represent a big bag of money directed at the 99.99% and the .01% want that money. Same old story. Screw the powerless. Greed!
/

Greenbeard · Nov 23, 2017

Will Marshall said:
So my question is, what's with America's problem with socialised healthcare? I realize that the majority aren't rabidly for or against it and most of the more overt bickering goes on among Congressmen, but socialised healthcare is great. If anything, most Australians believe it should be expanded, because it DOES lower insurance and healthcare costs.

The challenges to what you're describing here are a mix of economic, political, and philosophical barriers. Our health system costs more than any other, which means that switching to public financing only would require funneling at least another trillion dollars through the Treasury annually. That's no small feat, politically. Similarly, most people tend to be loss averse, which makes moving ~150 million people off of employer-sponsored insurance and into public coverage challenging. And there remain serious philosophical disagreements as to where the responsibility for making decisions about cost-quality-access tradeoffs should sit.

iguanaman · Nov 23, 2017

Crovax said:
The view is that government is inherently incompetent because they have no incentive not to be and combine that with allowing them to make life or death decisions for you. A pretty scary combination to most Americans regardless of party affiliation.

What is scary is the way the Right strives to make that meme a self fulfilled prophecy. They have no interest in improving Govt. only benefiting from it's demise.

GDViking · Nov 23, 2017

Common Sense 1 said:
Ask the folks who come to the United States for medical care from Canada.

If you have a cold or the flu their system works great but if you need a big surgery/serious illness they come
to the US.

'The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money'
Margaret Thatcher

No people come here for cosmetic surgery because unlike us they put life and health before looks and comfort.

What's with America's problem with socialised healthcare?

Will Marshall

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Oborosen

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joG

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ttwtt78640

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