• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

What's with America's problem with socialised healthcare?

In other words, my post hit a little too close to home for you. And I didn't say "only" Republicans, I just countered your silly claim with the truth.

The fact is, you support a failed system based on crony capitalism.

Fascinating.

This is why I ignored you the first time. Literally in the same post I said I never supported the ACA but that's all you can talk about. Thread topic be damned.
 
Righto, so I'm from Australia, and here we have socialised healthcare - healthcare administered by the government. Everybody has it, and we also have private health insurance available - lots of people have both private and public healthcare.

So my question is, what's with America's problem with socialised healthcare? I realize that the majority aren't rabidly for or against it and most of the more overt bickering goes on among Congressmen, but socialised healthcare is great. If anything, most Australians believe it should be expanded, because it DOES lower insurance and healthcare costs.

Is it because of the Republican Party's "free-market-at-all-costs" platform? Are people all just still terrified of socialism? Is there a perception that big government is inherently evil and the expansion of public healthcare will infringe on peoples' civil liberties?

I am an American who lives in New Zealand. Over ten years. I never thought much about socialized health care except to probably be like lots of Americans and scoff at it ignorantly.

It is amazing. Have an injury? Go on in. Done. No suing the store or person. No insurance company ****ing you over with high rates and worse... denying claims. America's system is absolute ****. I hate it in hindsight. I was ****ed out of so much time and money. Americans cant see it because they have not experienced anything better. The well off are fine. They dont care... and the poor are screwed as are the lower middle class.
 
I am an American who lives in New Zealand. Over ten years. I never thought much about socialized health care except to probably be like lots of Americans and scoff at it ignorantly.

It is amazing. Have an injury? Go on in. Done. No suing the store or person. No insurance company ****ing you over with high rates and worse... denying claims. America's system is absolute ****. I hate it in hindsight. I was ****ed out of so much time and money. Americans cant see it because they have not experienced anything better. The well off are fine. They dont care... and the poor are screwed as are the lower middle class.

That's the problem though. Many Republicans don't even think it would be desirable for everyone to get to see a doctor, even if it costs less and provided better care. Without a desire to change for the better we have little hope of accomplishing it.
 
Support for socialized healthcare is increasing in America.

Support for single-payer health insurance grows in U.S. | Pew Research Center

I think that there are a few things that work against it. The fact that word Socialism is involved, taxes would need to be raised, and the pretty popular position that the government is unreliable. I think support is increasing because more people are becoming aware that programs like Medicare and Medicaid are in fact forms of socialized healthcare.
 
Wrong.

Conservatives donate way more to charitable services than do democrats/liberals, ...

Only due to church tithing, and most of that money goes to every day church operations. It's arguable that is charitable, it's more like a fee for services.
 
Only due to church tithing, and most of that money goes to every day church operations. It's arguable that is charitable, it's more like a fee for services.

It's absolutely charitable. Tithing or not, that money goes to benefit thousands upon thousands of people in need.

And, I'm talking about conservatives, in general, not churches, specifically, although they do good work -- some of them -- like the Brethen, Friend and Mennonite ones who offer aid and do not seek to convert. I pass on donating during the holidays to the Salvation Army who not only seek to convert but also have a history of homophobia.

Still, whether it's religious or just conservative-based charities in local communities, they do a lot to help.
 
Righto, so I'm from Australia, and here we have socialised healthcare - healthcare administered by the government. Everybody has it, and we also have private health insurance available - lots of people have both private and public healthcare.

So my question is, what's with America's problem with socialised healthcare? I realize that the majority aren't rabidly for or against it and most of the more overt bickering goes on among Congressmen, but socialised healthcare is great. If anything, most Australians believe it should be expanded, because it DOES lower insurance and healthcare costs.

Is it because of the Republican Party's "free-market-at-all-costs" platform? Are people all just still terrified of socialism? Is there a perception that big government is inherently evil and the expansion of public healthcare will infringe on peoples' civil liberties?

I will try to answer your question.

So..

1. First.. for most americans.. going to socialized medicine would be worse for them than what they have now. So in Australia you have a government plan that pays for basic stuff. for most americans.. their plans pay for way more than your basic insurance. So.. they would end up having to pay higher taxes to get a basic socialized plan.. and THEN on top of that have to go out and buy a private health plan to just to get back to where they are already.
AND if they are poor or elderly.. its worse.. because the government plans we have in America? They are medicare and Medicaid.. and both of those government plans pay for WAY more things than the Australian government plan.

So our poor and elderly would face higher taxes for a worse government plan.. and then on top of that have to pay for private plans to get themselves back to where they are now.

2. Americans value choice and we value speed. We want to be able to go to the physician of our choice, the surgeon of our choice and in what we consider a timely manner. Countries with socialized medicine in general have longer wait times for things like specialist visits, MRI, and other special tests.. not to mention the government in most instances controls what those providers can order or provide, etc. Its one reason that the cancer death rate is higher than in the UK and Europe than in the US.

now.. preventative medicine, and early check ups.. socialized medicine tends to have us beat. But when the chips are really down... private insurance is the way to go.. (as long as you have insurance).. compared to most socialized medical plans in other countries.

3. We do have a righteous fear of public healthcare infringing on the people's civil liberties. In our government plans that exist.. there is a prohibition on covering abortion or abortion services (except under certain circumstances).., and that has survived republican and democrat administrations and congresses. Given our current political climate, its hard to conceive of turning our healthcare management to a Donald Trump.

4. Its little talked about... but healthcare is a huge part of our GDP.. and it comprises a huge amount of excellent wages, is often a major employer in every area.. Any socialized medicine plan that's main focus is reduction in healthcare costs.. will likely have huge negative effects on our economy.
 
3. I don't have a fear. You know why? Because I don't have a reasonable insurance. You have a platinum one right?
 
I will try to answer your question.

So..

1. First.. for most americans.. going to socialized medicine would be worse for them than what they have now. So in Australia you have a government plan that pays for basic stuff. for most americans.. their plans pay for way more than your basic insurance. So.. they would end up having to pay higher taxes to get a basic socialized plan.. and THEN on top of that have to go out and buy a private health plan to just to get back to where they are already.
AND if they are poor or elderly.. its worse.. because the government plans we have in America? They are medicare and Medicaid.. and both of those government plans pay for WAY more things than the Australian government plan.

So our poor and elderly would face higher taxes for a worse government plan.. and then on top of that have to pay for private plans to get themselves back to where they are now.

2. Americans value choice and we value speed. We want to be able to go to the physician of our choice, the surgeon of our choice and in what we consider a timely manner. Countries with socialized medicine in general have longer wait times for things like specialist visits, MRI, and other special tests.. not to mention the government in most instances controls what those providers can order or provide, etc. Its one reason that the cancer death rate is higher than in the UK and Europe than in the US.

now.. preventative medicine, and early check ups.. socialized medicine tends to have us beat. But when the chips are really down... private insurance is the way to go.. (as long as you have insurance).. compared to most socialized medical plans in other countries.

3. We do have a righteous fear of public healthcare infringing on the people's civil liberties. In our government plans that exist.. there is a prohibition on covering abortion or abortion services (except under certain circumstances).., and that has survived republican and democrat administrations and congresses. Given our current political climate, its hard to conceive of turning our healthcare management to a Donald Trump.

4. Its little talked about... but healthcare is a huge part of our GDP.. and it comprises a huge amount of excellent wages, is often a major employer in every area.. Any socialized medicine plan that's main focus is reduction in healthcare costs.. will likely have huge negative effects on our economy.

3. I don't have a fear. You know why? Because I don't have a reasonable insurance. You have a platinum one right?
 
Righto, so I'm from Australia, and here we have socialised healthcare - healthcare administered by the government. Everybody has it, and we also have private health insurance available - lots of people have both private and public healthcare.

So my question is, what's with America's problem with socialised healthcare? I realize that the majority aren't rabidly for or against it and most of the more overt bickering goes on among Congressmen, but socialised healthcare is great. If anything, most Australians believe it should be expanded, because it DOES lower insurance and healthcare costs.

Is it because of the Republican Party's "free-market-at-all-costs" platform? Are people all just still terrified of socialism? Is there a perception that big government is inherently evil and the expansion of public healthcare will infringe on peoples' civil liberties?

It’s the fault of both sides of the aisle. I have NO idea where our gvmt would find the money to provide free healthcare. We’re already spending trillions more than we have. What group would pay the enormous cost?
 
It’s the fault of both sides of the aisle. I have NO idea where our gvmt would find the money to provide free healthcare. We’re already spending trillions more than we have. What group would pay the enormous cost?

As a nation, we already pay our healthcare bill, so it's not like we would be taking on an expense that doesn't already exist. It's just a matter of who we pay, the government middleman, or a private third party middleman.

Anyhow, when I did a lot of research into this, over 8 years ago, the government was already paying for 49% of the national healthcare bill. Now, with expanded medicade and the Obummercare insurance subsidies, I would think the government is paying for well over half the bill. It wouldn't really be that much of a stretch to provide medicade for everyone.

Socialized health insurance would take a huge burden off the backs of employers, allowing each employer to use the savings to spend according to their needs (expansion, raises, increased profits, etc). Our economy would boom.

So where would our government find the money? All that has to be done is that congress has to authorize the spending, the treasury takes care of the bookkeeping. That's exactly the same way we find the money to pay for the military, or any other spending.
 
Last edited:
Try it in a country with open border problems and massive levels of legal immigration of unskilled third worlders.

What you propose is economic suicide.

That is why we need the wall.
 
As a nation, we already pay our healthcare bill, so it's not like we would be taking on an expense that doesn't already exist. It's just a matter of who we pay, the government middleman, or a private third party middleman.

Anyhow, when I did a lot of research into this, over 8 years ago, the government was already paying for 49% of the national healthcare bill. Now, with expanded medicade and the Obummercare insurance subsidies, I would think the government is paying for well over half the bill. It wouldn't really be that much of a stretch to provide medicade for everyone.

Socialized health insurance would take a huge burden off the backs of employers, allowing each employer to use the savings to spend according to their needs (expansion, raises, increased profits, etc). Our economy would boom.

So where would our government find the money? All that has to be done is that congress has to authorize the spending, the treasury takes care of the bookkeeping. That's exactly the same way we find the money to pay for the military, or any other spending.

There is clearly enough fat between federal, state, and local government to pay health care.;)

We could start by replacing all the over paid government workers with slave labor from other countries. :mrgreen:

Plus as hard as they work someone might actually answer the phone and help you.:lamo
 
It’s the fault of both sides of the aisle. I have NO idea where our gvmt would find the money to provide free healthcare. We’re already spending trillions more than we have. What group would pay the enormous cost?

Cut back on the platinum health care the government now enjoys and have good health care for everyone.

If we took the profit the health insurance companies enjoy along with eliminating all the people in our healthcare it takes to get paid from these insurance companies that would be a good start. Then if you provided cheaper care for minor injuries that would go a long way towards reducing cost for health care.


I had 2 stiches put in my thump last year that cost me $400 out of pocket plus what they charged the insurance companies. 10 years ago a med clinic doctor put 2 stiches in my finger for $45.00 cash. I was on the phone for a lot of hours trying to get to the bottom of these charges.

Turns out they treated those 2 stiches as a surgical procedure. If I had known the cost up front I would have fixed it myself.

Flu shots and a lot of minor procedures do not require all the trumped up charges we see today.
 
That is why we need the wall.

Yes - the more we have, the more they try to sneak in and take it.

If the US were as much a dump as Mexico, we wouldn't have an illegal alien problem.
 
I had 2 stiches put in my thump last year that cost me $400 out of pocket plus what they charged the insurance companies. 10 years ago a med clinic doctor put 2 stiches in my finger for $45.00 cash. I was on the phone for a lot of hours trying to get to the bottom of these charges.

Turns out they treated those 2 stiches as a surgical procedure. If I had known the cost up front I would have fixed it myself.

Flu shots and a lot of minor procedures do not require all the trumped up charges we see today.

You must have chosen a cheapo, high-deductible insurance.
 
Yes - the more we have, the more they try to sneak in and take it.

If the US were as much a dump as Mexico, we wouldn't have an illegal alien problem.

Look what they have done to their country. That is not my idea of the American Dream. Just what we need is them dragging us down to their level.
 
You must have chosen a cheapo, high-deductible insurance.

Not at all. When I had my hip replaced before Obamacare with the same insurance it cost me nothing. After Obama care I had an aneurism of the artery right where my knee bends. Same insurance but now I had to fork over a couple hundred dollars. These 2 stiches were with the same insurance and cost me more than a hip replacement and an aneurism repaired in my knee. I got screwed by the walk-in clinic. They made a surgical operation out of 2 stiches. My insurance would not pay. I don't blame my insurance. Clearly I was price gouged.

What is sad is I went first to the emergency room at Geisinger hospital because it was a Sunday. I waited 2 hours and they finally told me I could get immediate care in another part of their hospital Geisinger walk-in urgent care clinic. So that is what I did. What is sad had I stayed in the emergency room it would not have cost me anything. I had Geisinger insurance the whole time.
 
Ask the folks who come to the United States for medical care from Canada.

If you have a cold or the flu their system works great but if you need a big surgery/serious illness they come
to the US.

'The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money'
Margaret Thatcher

What a joke of an opinion. the trouble with the american system is only the wealthy can afford it.
 
Righto, so I'm from Australia, and here we have socialised healthcare - healthcare administered by the government. Everybody has it, and we also have private health insurance available - lots of people have both private and public healthcare.

So my question is, what's with America's problem with socialised healthcare? I realize that the majority aren't rabidly for or against it and most of the more overt bickering goes on among Congressmen, but socialised healthcare is great. If anything, most Australians believe it should be expanded, because it DOES lower insurance and healthcare costs.

Is it because of the Republican Party's "free-market-at-all-costs" platform? Are people all just still terrified of socialism? Is there a perception that big government is inherently evil and the expansion of public healthcare will infringe on peoples' civil liberties?

Australia has a population of roughly 25 million, the USA has a population of roughly 322 million. What may or may not work well in Australia does not work well here. We have alot more people to cover. Your so-called socialized healthcare is basically the same as our retirement healthcare known as Medicare. Just as with the Australian system, for it to amount to viable coverage, we have to supplement it with private supplemental plans. Our government can barely cover out retired seniors. The re-imbursement rate to the doctors who treat medicare patients is actually lower then the actual cost of treating those patients. That is leading many doctors to stop treating medicare patients altogether. That has already created a doctor shortage for medicare patients. The so-called single payer system that the left in this nation is begging for would simply be expanding medicare to all. That would be an unmitigated disaster. it would be removing too much of the profit motive from the field of healthcare. Government bean counters would ultimately make the descisions on how many hospitals to build, how much high tech diagnostic equipment to buy, etc. We would also end up with a massive doctor and hospital bed shortage. And the costs for supplemental insurance to make medicare work would just keep going up and up and up to the point where it would no longer look like a switch from private health insurance to single payer.
 
Republicans would rather see millions of Americans suffer than admit they're ideologically wrong on this issue. To them it's better to pay twice as much per capita for Healthcare ranked in the 30's among other nations where 10s of millions of Americans can't see a doctor at all and the middle class is being crippled with medical debt. I chalk it up mostly to them being extremely uneducated on the subject and putting pure nationalism over the good of the country.

When you grow up being told that America is the best country in the world in every single category and have no other frame of reference you tend to believe it.

Common leftwing nonsense. Problem is that you lose any objective audience when you start with: "Republicans would rather see millions of Americans suffer than admit they're ideologically wrong on this issue." Use a bit of objectivity. Many more Americans would be suffering if we were under the Aussie system. Our government cannot even get it right for seniors. Where do you get the faith that they will get it right for all?
 
Our government's pretty incompetent, but generally we do fine. But my limited knowledge of American government leads me to believe that the whole "the government is incompetent and we should be afraid of it" thing could be rectified if not for some pretty piss-poor government construction that, generally, is a direct result of that way of thinking. The government lacks real power, and so their solution is to water down and half-ass their solutions to problems until the states will accept them, and it ends up pleasing nobody.

It's actually more then just incompetence. Our entitlement system and social services are vastly overburdened now. Add to that how much of the world the US feeds and provides a military defense umbrella to and the taxpayers cannot take much more.
 
I am not Republican and am more worried about the economics than any ideology, one way or the other. Ideology is for populists buying votes with 'free' goods for which the population cannot see the price tag.

The economics is the part of the math that assures that socialized healthcare does not work. With no profit motive and government bean counters making all the buying and staffing decisions, whate healthcare there is instantly becomes rationed as there will be much less of everything.
 
Common leftwing nonsense. Problem is that you lose any objective audience when you start with: "Republicans would rather see millions of Americans suffer than admit they're ideologically wrong on this issue." Use a bit of objectivity. Many more Americans would be suffering if we were under the Aussie system. Our government cannot even get it right for seniors. Where do you get the faith that they will get it right for all?

It works in every other industrialized nation just fine, it costs less and provides better care to more people. You're pointing at the ****ty system we have now and have had as a reason why we can never do what everyone else has already figured out.

In Germany the per capita cost is half what it is in the US and yet every man, woman and child has full health coverage and dental. All in a system where you pick your own doctors and if you want to opt out of the public system and take all of your money private, you can. Republicans arent just content to let everyone who wants to take part in a public system do so, they fight to prevent even having the choice. Our system sucks and it didn't start sucking in 2008.
 
Yet every UHC system in the world is dramatically cheaper and provides better care to more people. Your issue is ideology, not economics. If you cared about economics you'd be for it.

If every other nation in the world had to budget for their own defense without the protective umbrella of the USA, they would not be able to afford those UHC systems. And they do not do a better job. the statistics that claim they do are not taking everything into account.


I was never a fan of the ACA, but if you remember the only reason they attempted this bastardized version of HC is because UHC would never pass. It's hard to pretend that this is all the Dems fault when the GOP spent every iota of their energy trying to make the ACA a failure and adding pork for their corporate buddies.

It absolutely is all the democrat party's fault. They had an opportunity to reform healthcare in a positive way. They had control of the white house and both houses of congress. However they approached it like authoritarians. They could have worked something out with republicans that both parties and the American people could have lived with. Instead, they felt "Screw that.....we have the power to pass whatever we want to pass'". They came up with a bill that the vast majority of Americans wanted nothing to do with and the republicans in congress wisely refused to back or vote for. The result, the democrats had no political cover and have since paid dearly for it in the 2010, 2014, and 2016 elections. They do not control the white house, either house of congress, and even lost control of the majority of state legislatures....all because they insisted on passing something that had no significant support outside democrat members of congress and the white house at the time. You cannot blame the republicans for that.

Too stupid to reply to. "Only Republicans donate to charity therefore I don't have to address the topic of the thread.

Like it or not, it does blow up your "republicans want Americans to suffer narrative.
 
Back
Top Bottom