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Mass Shooters and Mental Health

blackjack50

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Personality disorders--Treatment for the 'untreatable'

I feel most of these people have personality disorders. And given what we know? I think it is a treatable, albeit difficult, treatment option. Give a read to this article and then let me know what you think we as a nation could do to provide treatment to people suffering from personality disorders?
 
Personality disorders--Treatment for the 'untreatable'

I feel most of these people have personality disorders. And given what we know? I think it is a treatable, albeit difficult, treatment option. Give a read to this article and then let me know what you think we as a nation could do to provide treatment to people suffering from personality disorders?

The biggest problem, in my opinion, is getting these people identified and being legally able to help them. Lots of these people are so far into the red zone, they don’t think they have a problem. Then it becomes very difficult to take them out of the game in order to diagnose and treat. Family often doesn’t get involved. Friends have no standing. Difficult.

Next is finding a psychotropic drug that helps. And finally, finding a way to insure these people stay on their meds.

The shooter’s brother was just interviewed on Fox. He was gobsmacked. Said his brother was straight as an arrow. Had absolutely no idea. I’m sure the mentally ill can showtime for short periods. I’m inclined to think that’s what this guy did.
 
I would prefer that liberals and conservatives alike would consider supporting public policies which expand the array of mental health services and coverage (not just institutionalization) instead of using events such as these as covenient covers of arbitration in the face of disagreement about firearms and firearm control.

This would include:

Rejecting any healthcare bill which strips EHBs, including mental health care.

Reject any healthcare bill which will lead to the dissolvement of Medicaid Expansion.

Reject the belief that bullying is a rite of passage in public school

Push aside the notion that unruly kids with diagnosed behavioral issues deserve to be locked in padded rooms or placed in holds that could injure or kill them--as a first response to classroom management issues.

Seek to decrease the school to prison pipeline

Reject any healthcare bill which strips Medicaid funding, including, but not restricted to removing Medicaid 1915c and 1915(i) state plan amendment waivers, and placing a per-enrolee cap.

In case you guessed it, I am heavily speaking about the GOP's healthcare bills. If you are willing to learn, great. If not, I dont think you have much of a right to pontificate about the lack of mental health services when you want a bill that would dramatically accelerate the destruction of whatever progress we have made in the last 15 years.





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This is an interesting one. People often tend to try and find a link between mental illness and gun violence but it seems to me that those are often more complex cultural circumstances that make someone commit violence.
Interestingly, if you start comparing what proportion of mentally ill people commit gun violence and what proportion of people who are not mentally ill commit gun violence, you find that the percentage is lower for mentally ill.

Did you know that fewer than 5% of the 120,000 gun-related killings in the US between 2001 and 2010 were perpetrated by people diagnosed with mental illness? (https://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcaus10_us.html)

There are studies that clearly show that there is no correlation whatsoever between violence and psychiatric diagnoses like depression, anxiety and attention-deficit. Even better, there are also studies showing that serious mental illnesses like schizophrenia actually reduces the risk of violence over time. You can find strong correlation between things like alcohol and drugs and violence but it's not really about mental illnesses necessarily.

So yeah, we should think more about prevent someone from accessing a gun in some random emotional moment, not so much about locking up the mentally ill or giving them more/better drugs. It's not gonna stop quite a few incidents I'm afraid.
 
Personality disorders--Treatment for the 'untreatable'

I feel most of these people have personality disorders. And given what we know? I think it is a treatable, albeit difficult, treatment option. Give a read to this article and then let me know what you think we as a nation could do to provide treatment to people suffering from personality disorders?

While your intentions may be good no amount of mental health treatment can stop lone gunmen
 
While your intentions may be good no amount of mental health treatment can stop lone gunmen

Great attitude. We can't stop suicide either. Why bother trying?
 
Great attitude. We can't stop suicide either. Why bother trying?

We should try. But it will take a lot more than treatment alone to help. You believe we should do everything we can....right?
 
We should try. But it will take a lot more than treatment alone to help. You believe we should do everything we can....right?

No. I don't. Because we could monitor all emails and lock up those who are a risk. Even executing them if we feel we need to. We could sterilize any undesirables. Put up cameras everywhere and take away rights to speech and guns and on and on and on. We COULD make this a very miserable place to live because of government oppression. It doesn't mean we SHOULD.

Your statement stands in opposition to treatment. You clearly (from other posts) just want to attack gun rights. If you feel like you can score political points off the dead in the gun control forum...feel free to make a thread where you can gloat about the dead and how it makes your point. This isn't about gun control. This is about our joke of a mental healthcare system...specifically when handling personality disorders. So please let me know what you think our response should be there...or just drop the gun control thing. This already doesn't get enough attention because of political whores like Hillary rotten Clinton trying to score political points off the dead against the NRA (aka republican campaign donor).

And you should damn well know why. It isn't sexy. It isn't quick or easy, and the parasites in Washington or even state governments can't take credit for the success while getting rich off the results. So please. Keep the discussion where it should be.
 
No. I don't. Because we could monitor all emails and lock up those who are a risk. Even executing them if we feel we need to. We could sterilize any undesirables. Put up cameras everywhere and take away rights to speech and guns and on and on and on. We COULD make this a very miserable place to live because of government oppression. It doesn't mean we SHOULD.

Your statement stands in opposition to treatment. You clearly (from other posts) just want to attack gun rights. If you feel like you can score political points off the dead in the gun control forum...feel free to make a thread where you can gloat about the dead and how it makes your point. This isn't about gun control. This is about our joke of a mental healthcare system...specifically when handling personality disorders. So please let me know what you think our response should be there...or just drop the gun control thing. This already doesn't get enough attention because of political whores like Hillary rotten Clinton trying to score political points off the dead against the NRA (aka republican campaign donor).

And you should damn well know why. It isn't sexy. It isn't quick or easy, and the parasites in Washington or even state governments can't take credit for the success while getting rich off the results. So please. Keep the discussion where it should be.

I didn't even mention guns. Great attitude
 
it's pretty safe to assume that a violent asshole who shoots a lot of people is probably ****ed up in the head by default. the US has a LONG way to go when it comes to affordable access to mental health care. our system is by far the most poorly designed in the first world in this area. even if you have insurance, the out of pocket can be huge.
 
I didn't even mention guns. Great attitude

We both know where it was going. And I'm shutting it down early. This is a hot button issue and gun control is going to be thrown around even though that will never be a solution to violent behavior.
 
it's pretty safe to assume that a violent asshole who shoots a lot of people is probably ****ed up in the head by default. the US has a LONG way to go when it comes to affordable access to mental health care. our system is by far the most poorly designed in the first world in this area. even if you have insurance, the out of pocket can be huge.

I agree. Especially for mental healthcare which barely gets coverage. The problem is the reliance on insurance. Insurance companies are the bottom feeding scum sucking assholes of the world. Just as much the parasitic government leeches. There is really no "good" option at this point. Mainly because Europeans and other single payer systems do not have the same issues as America. Not when it comes to size Of population and money and so on. Then you have to worry about losses in our leading edges (life saving medical care and pharmacy are both high quality here...just expensive and most of the world benefits from our r&d in that regard).

Anyway. I think one of the first major steps is to force insurance to cover more mental health care and options including addiction and so on. Things that could reduce the burden on our society and improve quality of life of an individual.
 
At the same time, cautions Linehan, the therapist needs to appreciate the reality of the client's emotions. BPD patients require emotional acceptance--a DBT staple--because they often lacked it as children, says Linehan. In an invalidating environment, for example, a child might express anger and be told by a parent that she is jealous. "They never gain a sense that their needs, wants and desires are reasonable," says Lynch, adding that such circumstances can lead to emotional difficulties and a problematic sense of self. DBT helps these people restore their sense of self, and legitimizes their emotional experience.

From the article.
 
I agree. Especially for mental healthcare which barely gets coverage. The problem is the reliance on insurance. Insurance companies are the bottom feeding scum sucking assholes of the world. Just as much the parasitic government leeches. There is really no "good" option at this point. Mainly because Europeans and other single payer systems do not have the same issues as America. Not when it comes to size Of population and money and so on. Then you have to worry about losses in our leading edges (life saving medical care and pharmacy are both high quality here...just expensive and most of the world benefits from our r&d in that regard).

Anyway. I think one of the first major steps is to force insurance to cover more mental health care and options including addiction and so on. Things that could reduce the burden on our society and improve quality of life of an individual.
We've done that.

A problem is that the infrastructure simply isn't there. A big reason for that is because state governments will not create a system of care system that sees institutionalization as a last resort and a terrible way of either treating an individual or a way to manage a budget. And private enterprise doesnt try to do squat until the state government does something. So in the meantime people are left with very little.

We have had to sue states over and over again to force the issue under the Americans with Disabilities Act. Often once sued, states realize that Medicaid has been able to create an infrastructure capable of doing better community mental health treatment through waivers in state plan amendments. This would have been eliminated under the AHCA, BCRA, and Graham Cassidy.

Guess who is not only trying to weaken our healthcare system and its EHBs, but also the ADA?

Yup, you guessed it. Our Republican Congress in 2017.

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Here are some other pieces:

However, hope is on the horizon as researchers begin the search for effective treatments, says Lynch. So far, the bulk of research has focused on BPD, he notes. While the challenges are numerous and the research is preliminary, two interventions in particular--dialectical behavior therapy (DBT) and cognitive therapy (CT)--show promise for BPD, researchers say

Evidence seems to back DBT's efficacy. In one study published in the British Journal of Psychiatry (Vol. 182, No. 1), 58 women with BPD were either assigned to DBT or treatment as usual--generally a weekly session with a psychotherapist.
In the study, a team of clinicians from the University of Amsterdam, led by Roel Verheul, PhD, assessed the participants' self-harming and damaging impulsive behavior, such as gambling and substance abuse, using the Borderline Personality Disorder Severity Index. After seven months of therapy, DBT-treated participants more successfully reduced suicide attempts, self-mutilating and self-damaging behaviors than those who received treatment as usual. Additionally, DBT patients were nearly twice as likely to stay in therapy.
.
 
Can anyone cite instances were people were denied access to adequate mental healthcare? I realize its a tempting target to jump on, but the facts do not square with the rhetoric. There is no indication that the health care laws or insurance or lack of available mental health care had anything to do with Vegas. The Sandy Hook shooter was under mental health care, as was Holmes and Loughner.

And if the answer to the question is 'mental health' then surely everyone that sees 'mental health' (as defined by who exactly?) and guns as a problem would also agree that mental health and access to children, cars, chemicals, gasoline, propane tanks, poisons, blunt instruments, and sharp pointy objects are all things that must be denied those individuals, right?
 
Aren't all murderers deranged with mental health issues? Should every person be required to undergo a psychiatric evaluation every five years, one year?
 
Here are some other pieces:
DBT as a treatment model for borderline personality DOs require the therapist to be available pretty much around the clock (based on scheduled times of contact-as much or as little contact as the client deems necessary) and it is NOT seen as a 'cure' to BPD. As such, a therapist trained in DBT can be expected to have no more than 6-8 clients (and woe be unto the therapist that goes on vacation, or is tied into a crisis with one of their other clients). It works fairly effectively when funded and used in an institutional model. Outpatient is tough. Doable...but hard, especially on the clinician.
 
Can anyone cite instances were people were denied access to adequate mental healthcare? I realize its a tempting target to jump on, but the facts do not square with the rhetoric. There is no indication that the health care laws or insurance or lack of available mental health care had anything to do with Vegas. The Sandy Hook shooter was under mental health care, as was Holmes and Loughner.

And if the answer to the question is 'mental health' then surely everyone that sees 'mental health' (as defined by who exactly?) and guns as a problem would also agree that mental health and access to children, cars, chemicals, gasoline, propane tanks, poisons, blunt instruments, and sharp pointy objects are all things that must be denied those individuals, right?

Look up Olmstead, Vance. Many states sued in the last 18 years.

Personally, about a quarter century ago, my own brother was denied adequate mental health coverage by an insurance company. They instituted a one time psychiatric residential facility limit--for life. He was 4 years old and used that up right away. No longer would be covered at all after that. I've had to wait in waiting rooms, trying to help as families have been forced to call every sort of hotline imaginable so that a kid, who was going to imminently kill themselves, would be given a bed. The best part was, there's often no beds. I know families that have been urged, coerced even, to give up custody of their kids just so that kid could get relatively moderate amounts of mental health services. In my own state, we have seen 70% of my states judges admit that they have sentenced someone to prison just so that they can get treatment. In the last 5 years, my state's juvenile justice system see an increase of 26+% of its population having an SED. Almost 90% of my state's juvi population has a mental health disorder. Oh, and here's the kicker. We're serving less than 10% of the seriously mentally ill adults, per state records. Kids, no one knows, because suddenly we don't publicly report on those kids anymore. The numbers dropped off the face of the earth, except when they tell the feds, perhaps.

As for whether it had anything to do with Vegas, I am skeptical. However, I notice that gun owners go to mental health immediately, because they don't want to talk about guns. Liberals bring up mental health, because they want to scandalize gun owners. Neither are very interested in actually doing anything positive with mental health services.
 
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Look up Olmstead, Vance. Many states sued in the last 18 years.

Personally, about a quarter century ago, my own brother was denied adequate mental health coverage by an insurance company. They instituted a one time psychiatric residential facility limit--for life. He was 4 years old and used that up right away. No longer would be covered at all after that. I've had to wait in waiting rooms, trying to help as families have been forced to call every sort of hotline imaginable so that a kid, who was going to imminently kill themselves, would be given a bed. The best part was, there's often no beds. I know families that have been urged, coerced even, to give up custody of their kids just so that kid could get relatively moderate amounts of mental health services. In my own state, we have seen 70% of my states judges admit that they have sentenced someone to prison just so that they can get treatment. In the last 5 years, my state's juvenile justice system see an increase of 26+% of its population having an SED. Almost 90% of my state's juvi population has a mental health disorder. Oh, and here's the kicker. We're serving less than 10% of the seriously mentally ill adults, per state records. Kids, no one knows, because suddenly we don't publicly report on those kids anymore. The numbers dropped off the face of the earth, except when they tell the feds, perhaps.

As for whether it had anything to do with Vegas, I am skeptical. However, I notice that gun owners go to mental health immediately, because they don't want to talk about guns. Liberals bring up mental health, because they want to scandalize gun owners. Neither are very interested in actually doing anything positive with mental health services.
I did not say people are not denied adequate mental health. Believe me...I KNOW there are massive problems with the insurance systems and mental health delivery.

The question asked is how does that argument square with ANY of these shootings and why does it continually get brought up in this context.
 
DBT as a treatment model for borderline personality DOs require the therapist to be available pretty much around the clock (based on scheduled times of contact-as much or as little contact as the client deems necessary) and it is NOT seen as a 'cure' to BPD. As such, a therapist trained in DBT can be expected to have no more than 6-8 clients (and woe be unto the therapist that goes on vacation, or is tied into a crisis with one of their other clients). It works fairly effectively when funded and used in an institutional model. Outpatient is tough. Doable...but hard, especially on the clinician.

That was my understanding. But at least it is a start. We really don't know much else. At least not from what I have been reading. You would think we would do more research in this area. Hopefully we will keep pushing. Do you know any other effective methods for dealing with these issues? I mean not every shooting is a result of this...Charles Whitman had a tumor.
 
I don't have a psych background, so maybe someone that does can pipe up here...

With few exceptions, mental illness cannot be positively identified as easily as detecting other physical disease process's ; not something you can simply do a blood draw on and send it to the lab...there are a few organic brain disorders that can be identified on labs or imaging, but the majority? Not so much.

Which leads to the next concern.....how many people with mental illness refuse to admit it, or are in deep denial....and game the system?

How many sociopaths and psychopaths have learned to play the role of a perfectly normal ( normal being relative) person?
 
I don't have a psych background, so maybe someone that does can pipe up here...

With few exceptions, mental illness cannot be positively identified as easily as detecting other physical disease process's ; not something you can simply do a blood draw on and send it to the lab...there are a few organic brain disorders that can be identified on labs or imaging, but the majority? Not so much.

Which leads to the next concern.....how many people with mental illness refuse to admit it, or are in deep denial....and game the system?

How many sociopaths and psychopaths have learned to play the role of a perfectly normal ( normal being relative) person?

Plenty. That is why learning the patterns of behavior are important for disorders. Mass shooters tend to make themselves known. The most recent being no exception.
 
That was my understanding. But at least it is a start. We really don't know much else. At least not from what I have been reading. You would think we would do more research in this area. Hopefully we will keep pushing. Do you know any other effective methods for dealing with these issues? I mean not every shooting is a result of this...Charles Whitman had a tumor.
I wish the national dialogue did not automatically jump to "gun control". I think one of the solutions is for law abiding gun owners to do a better job assessing their family situation with regard to firearms and family members. I believe the dialogue after the Sandy Creek shooting should have been better security of firearms. Yes...the guns were in a safe, but they were in a safe with a key...something the son could gain access to. I believe gun owners should be responsible for due diligence in securing their firearms to the level of concern within their own home. And I think if my son was mentally ill with violent tendencies, I would probably not supply him with video games depicting violence and have weapons in my home. Does that guarantee safety? No...but its a starting point and its not just promoting more stupid laws that we know wont work.
 
What reasonable gun control law would have kept this shooter from killing those people without taking away the 2nd Amendment rights of law abiding citizens?
 
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