Bernie's Socialized Healthcare

I've found a common response if I make a statement in support regarding a single payer, health care for all, I'm labeled a Socialist...I'll own that on this issue...have been for half a century or so...got my reasons which I will expand on but first I'll share what I proposed as a rough draft book intro to Bernie...I never got an answer so I signed up at DP instead...:lol:

A look at healthcare…

Take a walk with me in a pair of my Birkenstocks and come to understand why I look at healthcare as I do.

Obamacare is a joke and Trumpcare is an even more pathetic joke…one of the few things even Trump doesn't want his name on.

The current healthcare debate has brought recollection of numerous memories, among them were the debates when Ross Perot was asked about what he would do to fix the budget. In that Texan twang of his he said he'd take out a clean sheet of eight and a half by eleven paper and start over...that's what our healthcare program needs.

A short time later I found myself killing some time while waiting on building permits from the city of Irvine on a job that I was scheduled to work on as Project Coordinator. The General Contractor indicated that permits were close and if I didn't migrate that direction I might miss out on some of the fun.

I migrated in my 9 ton school bus which I had acquired in Santa Barbara for a hundred bucks and the obligation to get it the hell out of there in 90 days…tore out seats and most windows, built it with birch and redwood interior into a comfy pad…south to Irvine California, at about four miles to the gallon, into the heart of then bankrupt Orange County.

Due to bureaucratic bs I became the "night watchman" and parked my motorhome 287 feet from the road in the parking lot under a nice setting of eucalyptus trees next to the 30,000 square foot concrete tilt-up building we were waiting to spend millions on to upgrade and remodel into a high tech computer related business migrating from Costa Mesa.

With time to kill I tapped out an unfished manuscript on an old Royal (if memory serves) manual typewriter that I had to relocate a black widow spider from before bringing into my office in the bus. I started a book that didn't reach but about a hundred fifty pages called, "Dear Hillary, now what?"

As you may recall the healthcare debate was a biggie at the time so I included a chapter or three which I shall recount as relevant to my position as regards the healthcare debate…one of the chapters led me to conclude that if I were President I would declare war on the medical system, bring in bean counters, and set up tents.

More on that later, in the mean time I wish to thank, , my co-author who made sense of my ranting and to, , and, , without who's research and editing skills this would be nothing more than an unfinished manuscript which at my age equates to why bother due to some diminished capacity and lack of technical skill and connections.

Have a happy in good health.

David Yogi Beare


Here's a small example of where I'm coming from...

I can buy 800mg Ibuprophen in Mexico for about three bucks a jar last time I was down there getting a tooth pulled which cost me $25...I had called a dentist office in Arizona and they quoted me $250...no way...they have to take x-rays...why? I can tell you which tooth...wasn't an issue in Mexico...I also picked up some silver money clips to sell for a profit to cover the cost of gas.

I've never understood why people want VA level of healthcare. If the government can't even take care of veterans, why would anyone think government bureaucrats would treat regular citizens any better?

Moon said:

I've never understood why people want VA level of healthcare. If the government can't even take care of veterans, why would anyone think government bureaucrats would treat regular citizens any better?

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Well considering those with pre existing conditions are looking to have no insurance or lifetime or yearly caps should Obamacare get repealed, yeah they would rather have something than nothing. Cons like you would gladly cheer to have them have no insurance.

Praxas said:

Well considering those with pre existing conditions are looking to have no insurance or lifetime or yearly caps should Obamacare get repealed, yeah they would rather have something than nothing. Cons like you would gladly cheer to have them have no insurance.

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Not interested in discussing your silly stereotypes.

If you decide you want to have a rational, adult discussion, let me know.

Moon said:

Not interested in discussing your silly stereotypes.

If you decide you want to have a rational, adult discussion, let me know.

Click to expand...

Hit a nerve as usually to another con. Can’t address anything and run away. Hey you and the GOP in congress have something in common, they can’t rationalize throwing those with pre existing conditions either and choose to **** on those people. Run way con we don’t expect anything more from you.

The gop have no balls they can’t admit they want to throw those with pre existing conditions to the wolves and instead lie like the pieces of scum sucking cons they are.

Moon said:

I've never understood why people want VA level of healthcare. If the government can't even take care of veterans, why would anyone think government bureaucrats would treat regular citizens any better?

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Because every other government in the world is doing it. If ours can't, it's time to send the current incumbents packing and start over.
And because Medicare works.

Moon said:

I've never understood why people want VA level of healthcare. If the government can't even take care of veterans, why would anyone think government bureaucrats would treat regular citizens any better?

Click to expand...

Who said anything about VA level of healthcare?

My argument is for better care at less cost and I intend to provide examples to make my case.

As to the other responses...the intention of this thread doesn't have a damn thing to do with Obamacare vs Trumpcare but to consider the issue of healthcare from a different perspective...consider it rhetorical if you wish, since as Moon alluded to, the bureaucrats...pffft

I'd hoped the debate can move beyond as I said, Obamacare is a joke and Trumpcare is an even more pathetic joke....explore a different path.

Crap...I should have put this in a non political forum to try and maintain that perspective...oh well...y'all knock yourselves out and I'll just throw out something from time to time.

Praxas said:

Hit a nerve as usually to another con. Can’t address anything and run away. Hey you and the GOP in congress have something in common, they can’t rationalize throwing those with pre existing conditions either and choose to **** on those people. Run way con we don’t expect anything more from you.

The gop have no balls they can’t admit they want to throw those with pre existing conditions to the wolves and instead lie like the pieces of scum sucking cons they are.

Click to expand...

It is my understanding listening to the senator who put this bill together that people with pre existing conditions will be able to buy insurance. Where did you see something different?

What did I document the other day, was it that we would go from 17% Gdp on medical to 22% first year, and then double the current medical inflation already double average inflation in the good years?

Somethin like that.

OH HELL NO!

AYSM said:

Who said anything about VA level of healthcare?

My argument is for better care at less cost and I intend to provide examples to make my case.

As to the other responses...the intention of this thread doesn't have a damn thing to do with Obamacare vs Trumpcare but to consider the issue of healthcare from a different perspective...consider it rhetorical if you wish, since as Moon alluded to, the bureaucrats...pffft

I'd hoped the debate can move beyond as I said, Obamacare is a joke and Trumpcare is an even more pathetic joke....explore a different path.

Crap...I should have put this in a non political forum to try and maintain that perspective...oh well...y'all knock yourselves out and I'll just throw out something from time to time.

Click to expand...

Washington is too broken to do something of this complexity.

If you imagined otherwise then it sucks to be you.

:2wave:

Moon said:

I've never understood why people want VA level of healthcare. If the government can't even take care of veterans, why would anyone think government bureaucrats would treat regular citizens any better?

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Recent polling on Medicare for all showed a good amount of support until they found out they would forego their employer provided insurance coverage and then the support dropped significantly.

Hawkeye10 said:

Washington is too broken to do something of this complexity.

If you imagined otherwise then it sucks to be you.

:2wave:

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G'mornin' Hawk,

Actually, I don't even have a horse in this race, just past experiences to share in an academic debate...I expect to be dead within about a year.

Funny, waking up I was pondering what approach to take in starting a thread about a broken country...I think you and I have a similar view in many ways.

Do I think I have a good argument for a better America on this topic? I do but that remains to be heard. Do I see hope for the needed change? I'm a born skeptic.

There are some simple things that can improve what exists in terms of cost reduction...here's one example...

I get $60 per quarter in OTC products that I order and they are shipped to me...no cost to me...if, however I choose to not order everything at once, a second shipment would cost five or six bucks for shipping.

Consider this...one example from the list...Poligrip...they deduct $10.25 for that product...I can buy the exact same thing at Wal-Mart for $4.78.

Instead of paying the cost to administer such a program...put a $30 credit on a healthcare card that is run like a food stamp card covering applicable product that a person can use at their convenience...granted, some accommodation would have to be made for the home bound, otherwise there's nearly a 50% cost reduction in that part of the program...just sayin'

Problem being...who loses?

Praxas said:

Hit a nerve as usually to another con. Can’t address anything and run away. Hey you and the GOP in congress have something in common, they can’t rationalize throwing those with pre existing conditions either and choose to **** on those people. Run way con we don’t expect anything more from you.

The gop have no balls they can’t admit they want to throw those with pre existing conditions to the wolves and instead lie like the pieces of scum sucking cons they are.

Click to expand...

No, no nerves hit. I decided to only engage on a better level of discourse on DP and not the usual one liners and snarky comments. I'm not looking to score points or belittle anyone. It's not worth my time.

So, the last word is yours because I won't be responding to your posts in this thread any longer.

washunut said:

It is my understanding listening to the senator who put this bill together that people with pre existing conditions will be able to buy insurance. Where did you see something different?

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At skyrocketed rates and that there will be allowed lifetime caps and yearly caps as well. Tell us again how that helps people with pre existing conditions?

Moon said:

No, no nerves hit. I decided to only engage on a better level of discourse on DP and not the usual one liners and snarky comments. I'm not looking to score points or belittle anyone. It's not worth my time.

So, the last word is yours because I won't be responding to your posts in this thread any longer.

Click to expand...

All you have shown is you run away since you can’t address anything. Many cons are cowards.

AYSM said:

G'mornin' Hawk,

Actually, I don't even have a horse in this race, just past experiences to share in an academic debate...I expect to be dead within about a year.

Funny, waking up I was pondering what approach to take in starting a thread about a broken country...I think you and I have a similar view in many ways.

Do I think I have a good argument for a better America on this topic? I do but that remains to be heard. Do I see hope for the needed change? I'm a born skeptic.

There are some simple things that can improve what exists in terms of cost reduction...here's one example...

I get $60 per quarter in OTC products that I order and they are shipped to me...no cost to me...if, however I choose to not order everything at once, a second shipment would cost five or six bucks for shipping.

Consider this...one example from the list...Poligrip...they deduct $10.25 for that product...I can buy the exact same thing at Wal-Mart for $4.78.

Instead of paying the cost to administer such a program...put a $30 credit on a healthcare card that is run like a food stamp card covering applicable product that a person can use at their convenience...granted, some accommodation would have to be made for the home bound, otherwise there's nearly a 50% cost reduction in that part of the program...just sayin'

Problem being...who loses?

Click to expand...

I am still hung over from a wild night but good morning to you too...

While I appreciate a way to save $10 or $20 the fact remains that we spend $10K per person per year on average, that is with still a large number of people who have their care rationed either because they dont have insurance or cant afford to use it, when we should be spending more like $6K.......that savings of yours is a drop in the bucket of what we need. I am a radical on healthcare, though the crap courts of ours would never allow it what I want to do is nationalize the health system for 20 years, reformulate it into something that can get the job done with some efficiency, and then sell it off, those we take assets from get paid at the back end based upon how a point system (A owner who forfeits assets worth 1.2% of our current health system would get 1.2% of the total of what everything together sells for) . Incremental is not going to work in the face of such a huge and hugely broken very important system, we need to go big, Especially after Obama mucked things up even further with his idiotic ObamaCare. Our health system is super expensive and not very good, we need to tear it up and start over. But look at Washington, they cant even do the basics, no way do we have the leadership to get this done so we will continue to sink till crash.

So dead in a year you say, then you kept your mind almost till the end at least, that's winning. You are very fresh around here so I dont know how much we agree but I do know that. I have the global big crash on my calendar for 2029 but my health is not the best, I hope to avoid living through that.

Hawkeye10 said:

I am still hung over from a wild night but good morning to you too...

While I appreciate a way to save $10 or $20 dollars the fact remains that we spend $10K per person per year on average, that is with still a large number of people who have their care rationed either because they dont have insurance or cant afford to use it, when we should be spending more like $6K.......that savings of yours is a drop in the bucket of what we need. I am a radical on healthcare, though the crap courts of ours would never allow it what I want to do is nationalize the health system for 20 years, reformulate it into something that can get the job done with some efficiency, and then sell it off, those we take assets from get paid at the back end based upon how a point system (A owner who forfeits assets worth 1.2% of our current health system would get 1.2% of the total of what everything together sells for) . Incremental is not going to work in the face of such a huge and hugely broken very important system, we need to go big, Especially after Obama mucked things up even further with his idiotic ObamaCare. Our health system is super expensive and not very good, we need to tear it up and start over. But look at Washington, they cant even do the basics, no way do we have the leadership to get this done so we will continue to sink till crash.

So dead in a year you say, then you kept your mind almost till the end at least, that's winning. You are very fresh around here so I dont know how much we agree but I do know that. I have the global big crash on my calendar for 2029 but my health is not the best, I hope to avoid living through that.

Click to expand...

*laughs been awhile since I've had a hangover but had plenty of practice from time to time to get good at it...arty

I hear you completely, might have to smoke a bowl and read it again to get a clearer picture but I agree, my example is merely a drop in the bucket but a symptom of our ****ed up medical system which took a wrong turn back around the early 70's...it needs to be blown up...the problem is we've created an overpriced monster and too many are making too much profit...they're going to have to take a big hit...part of the downside of capitalism is greed and a tendency to excess...as George Carlin put it we gotta have our stuff...in healthcare we began equating that with more goodies to play with, which of course makes advances, we just failed to do it affordably...and here we are today with no clue how to provide reasonable quality healthcare for all like every other developed country.

I'm glad McCain didn't suspend the drama and got his buddy off the hook...like I said, I'm going to take another at your post after a bit...Fed-Ex surprised me with a mass air flow sensor for my truck I wasn't expecting until Monday...sure hope that does it...makes sense and the OBD said so...twisting wrenches isn't one of my favorite things but this is simple enough that I'm actually looking forward to it...:mrgreen:

I figured I won the game when I collected my first social security check at 62...never expected to live that long...I'm now among that group that the country benefits financially with my passing so it's all good that I don't have to prolong that, seeyoulaterbye

AYSM said:

*laughs been awhile since I've had a hangover but had plenty of practice from time to time to get good at it...arty

I hear you completely, might have to smoke a bowl and read it again to get a clearer picture but I agree, my example is merely a drop in the bucket but a symptom of our ****ed up medical system which took a wrong turn back around the early 70's...it needs to be blown up...the problem is we've created an overpriced monster and too many are making too much profit...they're going to have to take a big hit...part of the downside of capitalism is greed and a tendency to excess...as George Carlin put it we gotta have our stuff...in healthcare we began equating that with more goodies to play with, which of course makes advances, we just failed to do it affordably...and here we are today with no clue how to provide reasonable quality healthcare for all like every other developed country.

I'm glad McCain didn't suspend the drama and got his buddy off the hook...like I said, I'm going to take another at your post after a bit...Fed-Ex surprised me with a mass air flow sensor for my truck I wasn't expecting until Monday...sure hope that does it...makes sense and the OBD said so...twisting wrenches isn't one of my favorite things but this is simple enough that I'm actually looking forward to it...:mrgreen:

I figured I won the game when I collected my first social security check at 62...never expected to live that long...I'm now among that group that the country benefits financially with my passing so it's all good that I don't have to prolong that, seeyoulaterbye

Click to expand...

I dont know where exactly we went wrong because that would be a deep dive and the So-Called Journalists almost never help me out because they cant be bothered to care how we got a Medical system that cost almost 50% more than it should, spends far more than anyone else, yet ranks twenty something best in the world...AND IS BANKRUPTING THE NATION!......They always find other things that they would like to talk about instead. I do know that the alarms were sounded @1983ish because I remember reading long pieces about how the system was working increasingly less well and was in need of some sort of drastic change, an alarm that was eventually answered with HMO's which had clearly failed to address the problem with-in a few years and were mostly abandoned except the name stuck around for awhile. I do know that the insurance companies deciding that they were cost plus contractors who could not be bothered to control costs because they were going to make their money no matter what so why work was a part of the problem and early to mid 70's sounds right for the start of that crappola. Then they went to other way with HMO's, I remember reading about plans that were spending 40% of their money on bureaucracy who's main goal was to say no to care, to stand in the way of treatments so that the company could make more profits....plus they caused the providers to need to double and triple their bureaucracy and costs, this was demanded by the HMO's and their system of trying to say no to everything. And oh look at how we are still trying to figure out how to work with these assholes, still trying to get them their demanded profits. Ya, insurance companies need to be completely removed from healthcare.

Hawkeye10 said:

I dont know where exactly we went wrong because that would be a deep dive and the So-Called Journalists almost never help me out because they cant be bothered to care how we got a Medical system that cost almost 50% more than it should, spends far more than anyone else, yet ranks twenty something best in the world...AND IS BANKRUPTING THE NATION!......

Click to expand...

I can recall only one published article I've written and that was in a Bicycling magazine, so I lay no claim to being a Journalist...perhaps my personal experience can give you a turning point and when a choice was made that set us apart from the other countries.

A while back I saw an interview discussing Canada's program...he made the point that some 40 years ago they had to make a decision...do we continue in an expensive technology race and fancier more costly healthcare for the few...or...do we seek to put the efforts to the concept that healthcare is a right of all...most countries realized such a simple concept but Americans are greedy and run by the self serving...anyway, here's a page out of my playbook that might help put that into perspective...

Early 70's and we have our first child...it was awesome...I was in the delivery room which was not a common trend of the time...we went through Lamaze training...had a party into the night, she said, it's time, we headed to the hospital, got dressed out and Doc and I went for a cup of coffee, wasn't 10 minutes and we were notified if we wanted to be a part of things we better head back...wasn't too long and our first daughter came into the world...no meds...cost $150

Two years later to the week our second was delivered...cost $2500

My wife knew her body, woke up one morning and knew she had become pregnant the night before...take it as you will but she had been there before and I accepted her diagnosis...knew for sure I had done my part...months go by and sure enough...we were hooked up with medical so been there done that...back to Lamaze classes and another trouble free delivery...problem came about because they had a new machine that "proved conclusively" that she got pregnant two weeks prior, who am I to argue, guilty your honor, pick a night...fast forward to "their due date" which comes and goes, resulting in what would have been non issues had they just taken her at her word...what a mess.

I'm betting the tool is in more common use today in the USA than in Canada...probably more often than not to provide entertainment and remove the suspense of whether it's a girl or a boy...I'm sure it has evolved into something really cool but way overused...the Ultrasound.

In the years to follow, countries had to choose...$150 or $2500...I intend to share a number of examples but that one probably best illustrates the concept, and gives a sort of timeline to where we went awry with our capitalistic approach.

AYSM said:

I can recall only one published article I've written and that was in a Bicycling magazine, so I lay no claim to being a Journalist...perhaps my personal experience can give you a turning point and when a choice was made that set us apart from the other countries.

A while back I saw an interview discussing Canada's program...he made the point that some 40 years ago they had to make a decision...do we continue in an expensive technology race and fancier more costly healthcare for the few...or...do we seek to put the efforts to the concept that healthcare is a right of all...most countries realized such a simple concept but Americans are greedy and run by the self serving...anyway, here's a page out of my playbook that might help put that into perspective...

Early 70's and we have our first child...it was awesome...I was in the delivery room which was not a common trend of the time...we went through Lamaze training...had a party into the night, she said, it's time, we headed to the hospital, got dressed out and Doc and I went for a cup of coffee, wasn't 10 minutes and we were notified if we wanted to be a part of things we better head back...wasn't too long and our first daughter came into the world...no meds...cost $150

Two years later to the week our second was delivered...cost $2500

My wife knew her body, woke up one morning and knew she had become pregnant the night before...take it as you will but she had been there before and I accepted her diagnosis...knew for sure I had done my part...months go by and sure enough...we were hooked up with medical so been there done that...back to Lamaze classes and another trouble free delivery...problem came about because they had a new machine that "proved conclusively" that she got pregnant two weeks prior, who am I to argue, guilty your honor, pick a night...fast forward to "their due date" which comes and goes, resulting in what would have been non issues had they just taken her at her word...what a mess.

I'm betting the tool is in more common use today in the USA than in Canada...probably more often than not to provide entertainment and remove the suspense of whether it's a girl or a boy...I'm sure it has evolved into something really cool but way overused...the Ultrasound.

In the years to follow, countries had to choose...$150 or $2500...I intend to share a number of examples but that one probably best illustrates the concept, and gives a sort of timeline to where we went awry with our capitalistic approach.

Click to expand...

Ya but see the problem with that Argument is that the Japanese for one and I think there are others actually use more high tech testing than we do, but their overall costs are much less and they get better results. Maybe the problem is not that we do so many MRI's and the like, but rather we do it with too much labor and/or too much profit taking and/or we do it inefficiently...as in we spend many tens of thousands on a machine but run only say 15 people a week though it where as the Japanese push 40 through...I am not exactly sure.

Hawkeye10 said:

Ya but see the problem with that Argument is that the Japanese for one and I think there are others actually use more high tech testing than we do, but their overall costs are much less and they get better results. Maybe the problem is not that we do so many MRI's and the like, but rather we do it with too much labor and/or too much profit taking and/or we do it inefficiently...as in we spend many tens of thousands on a machine but run only say 15 people a week though it where as the Japanese push 40 through...I am not exactly sure.

Click to expand...

It's not so much the technology I'm thinking, as efficiency of use as you allude to...I can't speak to the Japanese but I had an MRI, it's about a 15 minute process which was performed in a hospital...they run a blood test first which gets sent to a lab that was linked to the emergency room so we waited 3 1/2 hours because of their workload to even get the MRI started...sis and I sat the whole time while no less than two, often times three and sometimes four employees in Radiation told jokes and carried on non stop, waiting on the blood test results before proceeding...I'd imagine they handle the process more efficiently in Japan.

My sis had an MRI a while back...apparently the doctor couldn't diagnose acid reflux without it.