Bernie Sanders unveils universal healthcare bill: 'We will win this struggle'

Lafayette said:

European National Health Care works. The facts, of which you prefer to remain oblivious, support that truth.

Exchanging with you is a dead-end. (You go on "Ignore".)

Moving right along ...

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Yes, please denigrate then run & hide.
I have gotten used to such responses here on DP.

I would rather have my current healthcare then whatever Frankenstein that Bernie or his buddies can come up with. Not to mention being glad that we are so far removed from the systems of places like the UK. Which had people dying of I quote "Chronic lack of Investment" in high numbers during 2015.

It still has a good ways to go, before it can be considered a good system.

Lafayette said:

From the Guardian newspaper: Bernie Sanders unveils universal healthcare bill: 'We will win this struggle' - excerpt:


I write from France, in the European Union (EU). Where 735 million souls - living in 28 countries (so, demographically comparable to the US) - are covered by National HealthCare Insurance because it is a condition for joining the EU. That number (735M) is more than double the US-population, and far, far more than the percentage of Americans with bonafide low-cost HealthCare Insurance. (Note that I am not saying that National Health Coverage is 100% free, gratis and for nothing throughout the EU. Some EU-countries do have private insurance that compensates the National Healthcare coverage - but that family insurance costs rarely more than 150/200€ a month - the dollar and euro being at about parity nowadays).

The average GP in the US earns more than $200K per year. (Verify that fact by looking it up at the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Code 29-1060, "Physicians & Surgeons" here.) The average EU physician earns about half as much - see that fact demonstrated here. Why?

Because Healthcare in the EU is not a "free market". The profession is considered so important to well-being that it must be managed by a National HealthCare System.

PS1: Which is also the reason why pharmaceutical companies barely break-even in Europe, and go off to the US to gouge their clients ...

PS2: NB: Which is why lifespan and total healthcare costs are so remarkably different between the EU and the US. See that fact infographically here.

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I wonder where you get your affordable generic medications? And how you fund the healthcare of 735 million people from one country...(you don't). I wonder how much you spend on military and how much you do for global stability? I love when Europeans think they can just copy and paste their governments to America. It didn't work in the 18th century. It doesn't work now.

Honestly...I would be ok if we reduced our military spending and used it to secure our own borders and trade. Then paid for our healthcare that way. But I think a lot of places would lose stability if we brought our navy home.


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blackjack50 said:

I wonder where you get your affordable generic medications? And how you fund the healthcare of 735 million people from one country...(you don't). I wonder how much you spend on military and how much you do for global stability? I love when Europeans think they can just copy and paste their governments to America. It didn't work in the 18th century. It doesn't work now.

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Look, in the European Union (EU), each country (just like an American state) shares in the responsibility of running the Union. And each of 24 EU countries funds its own National Healthcare Services and Education Systems. So, yes, the total population is around 735 million individuals.

However, to join the EU, a country is asked to submit to some rules. Two of which are impossible to avoid.

They are National Education Systems, and National HealthCare. In the former, all education is virtually free - primary/secondary without cost, and tertiary education with a modest "Tuition Fee". In France, that fee is around 750 euros per year.

National HealthCare means that the government sets the prices of both Healthcare Services and key elements* (such as pharmaceutical pricing). It is in this manner that costs are kept the lowest possible. In the US, there are NO CONTROLS on pricing, which is set by independent doctors (or by means of Insurance Contracts, where companies and doctors decide the "going rate").

The WORLD has "copy and pasted" both National Healthcare and National Education into their economic models. It is only idiots in America who insist upon a "free market" system that assures that 10% of Americans have NO HEALTHCARE INSURANCE whatsoever (and another 70% are ripped-off by privatized healthcare); and that 45% of American kids will never ever obtain a POST-SECONDARY DEGREE (because it is too damn expensive) meaning that about 14% of the American population is incarcerated below the Poverty Threshold**.

If you are unable to wrap your alleged mind around the two above FACTS-OF-LIFE in the USofA, then you have nobody to blame but your own ignorance ... !

blackjack50 said:

I would be ok if we reduced our military spending and used it to secure our own borders and trade. Then paid for our healthcare that way. But I think a lot of places would lose stability if we brought our navy home.

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The US has no compelling role to POLICE THE WORLD. The cost-expenditure is enormous and benefits mostly the Military Industrial Complex (a select group of companies) who have been feeding off the DoD-teat since WW1! (Before WW1, the US had no compunction whatsoever to Defend the Planet.)

International trade is beneficial to only a select number of companies, and when that trade is has no further "profit-incentive" it goes elsewhere. Just this week, John Deere France announced that it was closing its French plant because the cost-of-production was too high. So, off Deere goes to Slovakia (yes, part of the EU also) where labor-rates are half those in France. Three-hundred jobs will be lost. Go ask John Deere what percentage of its tractors does it sell in Slovakia and what percentage in France!!!

*Because Healthcare and Education are not "consumer markets", but the provision of key government services.
**Poverty Threshold in the US for a family of four is total income less than $24K yearly.

Lafayette said:

Look, in the European Union (EU), each country (just like an American state)

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You cannot compare a nation to a state. The states don't have the same economic freedoms or controls as your individual nations do. They also are subject to different taxes and have far less legal rights. We fought an entire war due to this (the one that was about slavery). So right there...there is no comparison.

shares in the responsibility of running the Union. And each of 24 EU countries funds its own National Healthcare Services and Education Systems. So, yes, the total population is around 735 million individuals.

However, to join the EU, a country is asked to submit to some rules. Two of which are impossible to avoid.

They are National Education Systems, and National HealthCare. In the former, all education is virtually free - primary/secondary without cost, and tertiary education with a modest "Tuition Fee". In France, that fee is around on pricing, which is set by independent doctors (or by means of Insurance Contracts, where companies and doctors decide the "going rate").

The WORLD has "copy and pasted" both National Healthcare and National Education into their economic models.

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Which is essentially a representation of you not understanding the difference between a nation and a state. They cannot be compared. You have a nation with a government that can decide to apply the same type of health care to this set of 60 million or that set of 20 million.

It is only idiots in America

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Wow. Talk about the European superiority complex. It must be hard being second place.

who insist upon a "free market" system that assures that 10% of Americans have NO HEALTHCARE INSURANCE whatsoever (and another 70% are ripped-off by privatized healthcare);

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Yea. That isn't born out here. 70% get great health care for the money. In fact...it is our government hospitals that absolutely suck.

and that 45% of American kids will never ever obtain a POST-SECONDARY DEGREE (because it is too damn expensive) meaning that about 14% of the American population is incarcerated below the Poverty Threshold**.

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A post secondary degree that costs $30,000 because $26,000 of that expense goes to liberal faculty. Interesting. Further...one does not NEED a post secondary degree. You can go into trade school and get multiple certificates. It is a question of what you do. I know that you as a European are horrified of the idea of the government not wiping your ass for you...but that isn't something to be valued here.

Also. You seem to ignore one simple fact about all of this...you pay for all of the above services. Period. None of what you think you get for free...is free. So tell me. How do you intend for this all to be paid for? By the government? Oh. So where does the government get their money?

If you are unable to wrap your alleged mind around the two above FACTS-OF-LIFE in the USofA, then you have nobody to blame but your own ignorance ... !

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"Alleged mind." Funny coming from a nanny state socialist who can't control his own life without American help.

The US has no compelling role to POLICE THE WORLD. The cost-expenditure is enormous and benefits mostly the Military Industrial Complex (a select group of companies) who have been feeding off the DoD-teat since WW1! (Before WW1, the US had no compunction whatsoever to Defend the Planet.)

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You realize we were obligated to become the world's police when it became evident that you Europeans couldn't stop killing each other by the millions and dragging the entire globe into conflicts that killed MILLIONS at a time. And it was our expenditure that kept the USSR at bay as well. See. You think you get all this **** for nothing, but you free loaders get a lot of stuff because of America.

International trade is beneficial to only a select number of companies, and when that trade is has no further "profit-incentive" it goes elsewhere. Just Deere goes to Slovakia (yes, part of the EU also) where labor-rates are half those in France. Three-hundred jobs will be lost. Go ask John Deere what percentage of its tractors does it sell in Slovakia and what percentage in France!!!

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Maybe France should reduce their excessively high taxes? Oh wait! They can't. Because their government pays for everything. Lmao! Seems like socialism is biting you in the ass.

*Because Healthcare and Education are not "consumer markets", but the provision of key government services.
**Poverty Threshold in the US for a family of four is total income less than $24K yearly.

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Why would someone have a family when earning less than $24,000 a year?



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blackjack50 said:

You cannot compare a nation to a state. The states don't have the same economic freedoms or controls as your individual nations do. They also are subject to different taxes and have far less legal rights. We fought an entire war due to this (the one that was about slavery). So right there...there is no comparison.

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Nothing of what you write negates the idea that the EU and the USA are demographically similar socio-economic democracies. Both have parliaments, which is the central key to democratic representation.

And why the Replicants try so hard to manipulate that representation in the Electoral College that decides the presidency! Unlike the EU that copied American democracy with the notable exception of not having an EC!

You are mired in Rightist nostalgia for the past that has long since proven inadequate for America's future ...

You just don't want to admit it. All that you've written is caustic Right-wing Blather. (Genghis Khan would have been proud of you ...)

HIDEOUSLY EXPENSIVE

Manc Skipper said:

Here's what Bernie's dreaming of. (Frankly I think he'd be better to be defending the advances already gained than split the Democrats, but that's me.)

This is what happened recently in a UHC system treasured by the population, but buckling from a decade of wilful underfunding by a hostile government.

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The UK used to have a fine HealthCare system - and it remains the only-one that pays fully all medical costs. Here in France, I pay 30% of all casual visits to my "selected" GP, and if I need serious treatment, then that is fully covered. Thankfully, the top-up insurance here in France costs only $30 a month.

France too has come down in the rankings. The country was first in the WHO ranking assessment done in 2000. Nowadays, it looks more like this:


The overall ranking of the US is dismal, even moreso when one considers that "private insurance" HealthCare is a monumental rip-off that is costing Americans twice as much per capita as it does in most of Europe. Or in Australia where it costs a third as much.

Of course, when a GP is earning $200K a year* (latest figure from the Bureau of Labor Statistics) and specialization-doctors another 20% on that, then one can understand why American Healthcare is so hideously expensive ...

*See here wages for Healthcare Practitioners and Technical Occupations

So, what's a country to do? Easy answer, bring down the effingly high cost of a medical degree!

To get a medical degree here in France tuition fees are shown here: Tuition fees at university in France

Tuition fees at public universities in France

*First cycle degrees (bachelor's programs - licence): 189.10 EUR per year. Engineering degrees have a tuition fee of 615.10 EUR per academic year, while medicine related studies have different tuition fees depending on the program. For example, the average tuition fees for doctor of medicine amount to 452 EUR per year.
*Second cycle (master's programs): 261.10 EUR per year
*Third cycle (PhD degrees - Doctorat): 396.10 EUR per year

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Does anybody question the fact that by having state-provided education subsidized by government funding we can arrive at cost levels that MOST AMERICAN KIDS CAN AFFORD.

Do we remember that Hillary employed Bernie's idea in her campaign to provide such subsidies from Federal funding sources?!? Do we understand that Donald Dork lost the popular-vote and - in a proper democracy - has no right whatsoever to be PotUS?

Do we also understand that because of the Electoral College he is the fifth PotUS in history to have LOST the popular-vote? See here for United States presidential elections in which the winner lost the popular vote"

A NATIONAL HEALTHCARE COST RAMPAGE

Cherub786 said:

Cost of health care in America would come tumbling down like a ton of bricks if the FDA was abolished and government interference in health care completely scrapped. Health care is a service not a human right. Sanders is out of touch with reality.

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Here's a dose of reality for you:


What reality is that infographic SHOUTING at you?

These facts: National HealthCare Systems deliver longer lifespan for a less expensive per capita cost. We here in Europe will be living 3-years longer than you in the US!

Once upon a time the US Health Care costs were only slightly more expensive (per person) than other similar economies as in Europe. Then something happened. Privatized medecin went on a Cost Rampage in the 1980s (Replicant Ronnie's administration) and never recovered.

The Replicants have ruined America by axeing Upper-income Taxation (causing Acute Wealth Unfairness) and allowing the Healthcare Cost Rampage to gouge incomes for medical professionals and profits for their cohorts in crime Private Insurance companies ...

Also for your edification, the Overweight Rates by Country infographic:



PS: Being "overweight" and being "obese" are two different statistics. World obesity rate infographic here.

Lafayette said:

Nothing of what you write negates the idea that the EU and the USA are demographically similar socio-economic democracies. Both have parliaments, which is the central key to democratic representation.

And why the Replicants try so hard to manipulate that representation in the Electoral College that decides the presidency! Unlike the EU that copied American democracy with the notable exception of not having an EC!

You are mired in Rightist nostalgia for the past that has long since proven inadequate for America's future ...

You just don't want to admit it. All that you've written is caustic Right-wing Blather. (Genghis Khan would have been proud of you ...)

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Lmao! So all you have in response is basically just to double down on your fundamental LACK of knowledge of how a state works. And then you attempt to compare entire nations to states in America. You obviously have no working knowledge of States...and it seems like you really don't understand how governments work.

Here is an example. You are trying to treat the EU like it is a sovereign nation. Specifically, like it is a federation. And that it is responsible for ensuring the health care of all 735 million people there. They are not. The EU does NOT levy taxes. Nations do. So the EU cannot be used as an example because they have no authority to decide how a government provided health care should be funded. None. It does not levy taxes like a real nation. It also lacks the authority of a real nation. It is more of a confederacy with federalist tendencies than vice versa. Which means your comparison might have been accurate if the United States had kept the original form of government we had...almost 250 years ago. But we didn't. We are federalist. I reference you back to the American civil war from the 1860s. The war settled the debate on the powers of the state.

States do not have the ability to levy taxes like the federal government. They are more similar to territories or regional governments in other nations. Their economies are small. And they are funded by different means than an entire nation. Be it global trade, or interstate commerce.

And so you are trying to demand that the states fund the healthcare...or the federal government do so. Neither of which makes any sense because...in your comparison...the federal government is the same as the EU...but the federal government levies taxes where the EU does not...and does not decide on anything about the government provided healthcare. Which means that you have no nation that compares in size and scale to the United States. Or...you believe States should fund the health care system...the states that do not have power to levy interstate taxes (federal government), import or export taxes (federal government), and so on. They would then be forced to create a new tax...raise their taxes on the citizens....and pay for healthcare that way. Which defeats the purpose.

This isn't about me admitting that I am wrong. I am not. You don't understand American government and it is painfully obvious. You only know what you have been told by your propaganda. And you will deny ANY and ALL information that counters this. Period. As for explaining the electoral college...it doesn't seem you even remotely grasp the understanding of why protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority is a good thing. Short version....an electoral college is the same thing to voters as the Senate is to the House of Representatives. This is about geography and regional differences. And the electoral college ensures that the president must represent the United States. Not just California and the north east and their economic interests.


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YOU, YOU, YOU,

Cherub786 said:

Cost of health care in America would come tumbling down like a ton of bricks if the FDA was abolished and government interference in health care completely scrapped. Health care is a service not a human right. Sanders is out of touch with reality.

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Your reality, not mine.

I'm a Yank living in Europe ((30 years now) and - believe me - the Healthcare systems here (regardless of the country) are tops.

For your edification (Lifespan versus per capita cost of total health care), see here.

You in the states are going to live three-years less than me here in Europe!

You are out of touch with reality, not Bernie. Guess were he got the idea for Universal Health Care. From Europe, where it has existed since the 1950s. More than half-a-century ago!!!!!!!!

You need to get out and about more beyond the three-mile territorial-waters limit ...

blackjack50 said:

LHere is an example. You are trying to treat the EU like it is a sovereign nation. Specifically, like it is a federation. And that it is responsible for ensuring the health care of all 735 million people there. They are not. The EU does NOT levy taxes. Nations do. So the EU cannot be used as an example because they have no authority to decide how a government provided health care should be funded.

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Your ignorance of the facts is showing.

Just because the EU was not "formulated" like the US 240 years ago does not mean it is not a nation. Yes, it is an agglomeration of nation-states. But just like each of the "united-states" of America, each of the EU nation-states has an Executive, a Legislature and a Judiciary. Yes, there is no common "EU Constitution" - but there is also a common EU judicial-systems whose decisions regarding cross-border matters are binding. (In fact, most EU-countries have codified-constitutions - in their own language - on the national level.)

To think that the parallels between the EU and the US do not exist is pure blindness on your part. Given the socioeconomic similarities (comparable market-economies), the two entities (the US and the EU) are perfectly comparable.

No, they are not all the same, but neither are "all states comparatively identical" in the US either. The EU, because it is "newer" has adopted as INTEGRAL PARTS OF EACH NATION National Health Care and National Tertiary Education funded by the central "state" governments. (This was a necessity due to the language differences across the EU.)

The US has a national Congress consisting of a House and a Senate. The EU has only a parliament (HofR) - but so do many of the EU countries manage to do without a Senate. The EU does not have a president; and, yes, should create one to even further unify itself ...

NB: The sole real difference between EU states is that some have maintained a Monarchy and others have not. The US happens to be amongst the first to have chosen the latter category.