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Bernie Sanders unveils universal healthcare bill: 'We will win this struggle'

THE ROT IN AMERICAN POLITICS CALLED "GERRYMANDERING"

haymarket said:
I view this as a step. The GOP has their plan - sort of.... kind of .... more or less ..... and they cannot get it passed through Congress. The progressive Dems have their plan now and they will not be able to get it passed through Congress either.
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I see this as a better option: We go to the root of the problem. Which is how we elect our politicians in Congress. Namely, the fact that voting for one's rep to the HofR is generally determined by a warped electoral voting map - the result of gerrymandering.

Don't believe it? See here:
*Time Mag (Oct., 2016): We Must Address Gerrymandering - excerpt:
Political districts no longer represent the people—and lead to more paralyzing partisanship

The United States is an outlier in the democratic world in the extent to which politicians shape the rules that affect their own electoral fortunes. Federal campaign finance policy is administered by a feckless Federal Election Commission, whose three Democratic and three Republican commissioners routinely produce gridlock instead of effective implementation of the law. The conditions under which election ballots are cast and counted—from registration to voting equipment, ballot design, polling locations, voter ID requirements, absentee ballots and early voting—are set in a very decentralized fashion and prey to political manipulation to advantage one party over the other. And while most countries with single-member districts (such as Canada, Britain and Australia) use nonpartisan boundary commissions to redraw lines so they reflect population shifts, in America, most state legislatures create the maps for both congressional and state legislative districts through the regular legislative process. They make their own luck.
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*The Denver Post (Nov., 2016): AP analysis shows how gerrymandering benefited GOP in 2016 - excerpt:
The 2016 presidential contest was awash with charges that the fix was in: Republican Donald Trump repeatedly claimed that the election was rigged against him, while Democrats have accused the Russians of stacking the odds in Trump’s favor.

Less attention was paid to manipulation that occurred not during the presidential race, but before it — in the drawing of lines for hundreds of U.S. and state legislative seats. The result, according to an Associated Press analysis: Republicans had a real advantage.

The AP scrutinized the outcomes of all 435 U.S. House races and about 4,700 state House and Assembly seats up for election last year using a new statistical method of calculating partisan advantage. It’s designed to detect cases in which one party may have won, widened or retained its grip on power through political gerrymandering.

The analysis found four times as many states with Republican-skewed state House or Assembly districts than Democratic ones. Among the two dozen most populated states that determine the vast majority of Congress, there were nearly three times as many with Republican-tilted U.S. House districts.

The AP analysis also found that Republicans won as many as 22 additional U.S. House seats over what would have been expected based on the average vote share in congressional districts across the country. That helped provide the GOP with a comfortable majority over Democrats instead of a narrow one.
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*The Guardian (Nov., 2016): Wisconsin rules GOP gerrymandering violates Democrats' rights. Excerpt:
District judges have struck a blow against the practice of gerrymandering – the deliberate manipulation of voting boundaries to favour one party over another – in a ruling that could reverberate across the US.

A court in Wisconsin said that state assembly voting districts drawn up by Republicans five years ago are unconstitutional and violate the rights of Democrats.

The ruling has no bearing on the 2016 presidential election, in which Donald Trump scored a surprise victory over Hillary Clinton in Wisconsin, taking its 10 electoral college votes, but could lead to a precedent that will affect future races for the US House of Representatives.

This is the first time in 30 years that a court has taken a stand against it, Stephanopoulos added. “If the supreme court upholds this decision, there could be very positive and dramatic consequences in states all over the country where gerrymandering has happened.”
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'Nuff said? Probably not ...
 
Lafayette said:
THE ROT IN AMERICAN POLITICS CALLED "GERRYMANDERING"



I see this as a better option: We go to the root of the problem. Which is how we elect our politicians in Congress. Namely, the fact that voting for one's rep to the HofR is generally determined by a warped electoral voting map - the result of gerrymandering.

Don't believe it? See here:
*Time Mag (Oct., 2016): We Must Address Gerrymandering - excerpt:

*The Denver Post (Nov., 2016): AP analysis shows how gerrymandering benefited GOP in 2016 - excerpt:

*The Guardian (Nov., 2016): Wisconsin rules GOP gerrymandering violates Democrats' rights. Excerpt:


'Nuff said? Probably not ...
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I could not agree more that gerrymandering is one of the major problems in our political system that we must fix ASAP. In fact, I am working here in Michigan on a campaign called Voters Not Politicians to get rid of it through a ballot initiative. We are about 1/3 of the way to getting enough signatures to force it on the ballot and have only been at it for a month with five still to go.

This is some information about our effort

http://www.votersnotpoliticians.com
 
Oborosen said:
Oh he does, its just the same thing as "Everything must be free" and "The government has to be the ones to pay for it."
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Medicare isn't free. Part A, which covers hospital rooms, and durable medical equipment, comes with a deductible and no monthly cost. Part B, which is optional, cost around 120 bucks a month and gives you 80/20 coverage, with no cap on the 20. Meaning if you get a 100,000 medical bill, you have to pay 20,000 of it out of pocket. And don't get me started on part D. So no, medicare is not free, it's just designed around people on a fixed income. Most people on medicare get what's called a supplement to fill in the gaps from private insurance. Which ranges anywhere from 85 bucks a month from a healthy non smoker at 65, to 200 bucks for an unhealthy smoker. And the state you lives in controls what goes into the supplements and the maximum that is allowed to be charged.

Private Insurance companies love the supplement business, it's a huge profit driver.
 
Lafayette said:
Pure drivel.

The EU employs a universal healthcare system based mostly upon nationally subsidized healthcare reimbursements of cost. Said reimbursements are NOT THE LEAST BIT LIKE THAT IN THE US where private insurance sets the pricing. (With the sole exception of Medicare for which the reimbursement rates are specified by the government.)

For your edification (since you don't want to believe me) from the Guardian (July, 2017): How does the US healthcare system compare with other countries?. Excerpt:



*That makes for 8% of the population! Down from 16% before ObamaCare!
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Nobody said, I don't believe, that the US and great variety of health care systems around the EU were the same. But your approach is just dishonest. I pointed out that you are not correct about medical care, its quality and availability in a number of EU member countries unless you have cash. This was not only the case in Greece, where the EU effectively took the availability away from large numbers of the citizens but also in other countries as you very well know.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Bernie needs to go bend the knee to Trump.
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...followed by a swift kick in the ass...that part might be dealt with by Congress eventually, we'll see.

Good to see Bernie stirring that pot, a right, not a privilege...life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is better served by a healthy society

kinda sad how the US has wandered so far astray...too bad we've created such a monster
 
AYSM said:
...followed by a swift kick in the ass...that part might be dealt with by Congress eventually, we'll see.

Good to see Bernie stirring that pot, a right, not a privilege...life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is better served by a healthy society

kinda sad how the US has wandered so far astray...too bad we've created such a monster
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I dont know you...who is "we"?

It would be even nicer if Bernie had some ideas on how to get our health system working better and providing more value considering that spending $10K per person per year and going up is not working and cant work, as we cant afford it. Spending even more is not going to help the nation in the long run because broke always sucks.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
You have already pointed out that US doctors get paid 2X what French doctors do and now wish to amaze us that their services cost about 2X more - why am I (not) shocked that is the case?
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Are US doctors twice as good? Is our healthcare treatment twice as good?
 
haymarket said:
I could not agree more that gerrymandering is one of the major problems in our political system that we must fix ASAP. In fact, I am working here in Michigan on a campaign called Voters Not Politicians to get rid of it through a ballot initiative. We are about 1/3 of the way to getting enough signatures to force it on the ballot and have only been at it for a month with five still to go.
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I wish you the best of luck on your endeavour. The US has such a long row-to-hoe on fair-elections that it must start somewhere. Why not in the states.

The hard-part will be nonetheless this joke called the Electoral College that has allowed in FIVE INSTANCES throughout history false presidents who had lost the popular vote - twice already in the past 20 years ...
 
Hawkeye10 said:
I dont know you...who is "we"?

It would be even nicer if Bernie had some ideas on how to get our health system working better and providing more value considering that spending $10K per person per year and going up is not working and cant work, as we cant afford it. Spending even more is not going to help the nation in the long run because broke always sucks.
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I was speaking of the US so I used "we" in that context.

I doubt Bernie is opposed to working to "fix" the ACA but, as the WH likes to say they can walk and chew gum at the same time...the system needs a complete overhaul...the USA screwed the pooch on this issue long before ACA...it was an attempt to fix things that are virtually unfixable as we've created such a monster.

We need to provide "different" services.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
It would be even nicer if Bernie had some ideas on how to get our health system working better
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This indicates that you have never read his propositions on Health Care.

So, read here: Medicare for All: Leaving No One Behind. Excerpt:
THE PLAN - BETTER COVERAGE

Bernie’s plan would create a federally administered single-payer health care program. Universal single-payer health care means comprehensive coverage for all Americans. Bernie’s plan will cover the entire continuum of health care, from inpatient to outpatient care; preventive to emergency care; primary care to specialty care, including long-term and palliative care; vision, hearing and oral health care; mental health and substance abuse services; as well as prescription medications, medical equipment, supplies, diagnostics and treatments.

Patients will be able to choose a health care provider without worrying about whether that provider is in-network and will be able to get the care they need without having to read any fine print or trying to figure out how they can afford the out-of-pocket costs.
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Don't say you were never told ...
 
AYSM said:
Not really, it's not a hard stretch to not believe their doctors are twice as bad or that their system could be twice as screwed up as ours. ;)
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Have you bothered to look at the tax rates required? How about the medical education costs or malpractice insurance costs? Trying to use one thing, the average cost per patient for care, as the only significant difference between two county's socioeconomic systems is ridiculous. If this UHC deal is obviously so much better and less expensive then why has no US state done it?
 
Lafayette said:
When a country's sole point-of-reference has become money, money, money then people, people, people become disposable ...
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I say that the Enlightenment totally bombed in their assessment that greed could be encouraged and then managed.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Have you bothered to look at the tax rates required? How about the medical education costs or malpractice insurance costs? Trying to use one thing, the average cost per patient for care, as the only significant difference between two county's socioeconomic systems is ridiculous. If this UHC deal is obviously so much better and less expensive then why has no US state done it?
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Your first two questions address the answer to your third question...it's not easy and requires a totally different direction in how we administer medical care.
 
joG said:
Nobody said, I don't believe, that the US and great variety of health care systems around the EU were the same. But your approach is just dishonest. I pointed out that you are not correct about medical care, its quality and availability in a number of EU member countries unless you have cash. This was not only the case in Greece, where the EU effectively took the availability away from large numbers of the citizens but also in other countries as you very well know.
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Get off your HIGH HORSE!

There is no "great variety of health care systems around the EU" - they are all National HealthCare Systems of the kind the US should have.

And in comparison to the EU variety, the US version is lacking seriously. I have shown you the comparative analyses.

Give it up, will you ... ?
 
Polar Bum said:
Thank you for your concern.

When did France start shilling for Bernie? Is it that socialist thing?
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When did you start shilling for the "American Way of Life", without ever having lived beyond the three-mile limit in the US!

One-liner sarcasm - that's all you are good for in this forum.

Go away ...
 
Lafayette said:
When did you start shilling for the "American Way of Life", without ever having lived beyond the three-mile limit in the US!

One-liner sarcasm - that's all you are good for in this forum.

Go away ...
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:lamo

I have spent nearly half my life OUT of the United States.....come visit me. I know a lovely little hotel downtown Kabul, great view of the Airport and gravel quarries.

You like falafel?
 
TOUS FOR OUR BOYS

ttwtt78640 said:
OK, Skippy, why use only the US discretionary budget? Well, because that excludes the medical care spending which is in the US mandatory budget and far, far exceeds military spending. Dishonesty in one presentation of "just the unbiased facts" leads one to see that this cherry picking of facts is likely used to carefully select "just the relevant facts" used support other arguments.
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So is Retirement Pensioning part of the non-discretionary budget.

Do you understand why there are two budget appellations - one Discretionary the other Non-discretionary? Because non-discretionary means "necessitated".

The whoppingly huge DoD budget is discretionary - that is, "available for use at the discretion of the user". We don't need a DoD budget of such proportions. We have one because American governments repeatedly vote it into the budget - like "Toys for our Boys". (And the profits of those Defense-industries benefitting from DoD-contracts*.)

Moreover, and this is the dishonest part, with a postsecondary education costing so effing much, by the DoD offering to cover the cost we attract the lower-class of recruit who cannot afford a tertiary-level degree.

If one does not come home in a body-bag back from the Middle-east, that is!

Some bet that! Would you like to have your son/daughter take that risk ... ?

*Do you understand the alternative uses that could have been funded by the equivalent of the F-35 development program? Evidently not - so go here to see: 7 Amazing Things America Could Have Bought Instead of a $1.45 Trillion Jet Fighter
 
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Lafayette said:
Greed is good!

Didn't you know ... ? ;^)
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Love that movie, have even been known to run Gekko Quotes on DP.

You know Douglas was shocked and disheartened that the Gekko Character was way to often idolized and adored by Wall Street types, here he was trying to play a warning only to find that he encourage the unsavory types. Carol O'Connor felt much the same way about playing Archie, in his case it was worse because he got personally accused of betraying the advancement of America.
 
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ttwtt78640 said:
Why use cherry picked (those particular nations and the year 2010) data? Well, because that is what you need to show what you say are the facts. Why were Italy, Greece and other EU nations left out?

You have already pointed out that US doctors get paid 2X what French doctors do and now wish to amaze us that their services cost about 2X more - why am I (not) shocked that is the case?
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My neighbor's soon took his degree in medicine here in Europe, and it cost him $1000 in tuition plus room&board over a period of seven years. Because in Europe, that degree is Free, Gratis and (almost) for Nothing.

Had your child done the same in the US it would have cost more than $200K. Which, of course, s/he would have expected to recuperate as quickly as possible by the higher price of their services. Duhhhhhh!

Moving right along ...
 
joG said:
I don't know how often you visited a Romanian hospital and paid a bribe to get the doctor to attend you or whether you talked with anyone but the wealthy in Greece about not being treated for cancer.
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Cherry-picking your facts, again?

Romania is a basket-case of a country. As Greece is becoming.

The rest of Europe has the most decent National HealthCare Services on earth. (Middle-east oil countries not counted.)

You just can't seem to appreciate the force-of-logic of this infographic:
ftotHealthExp_pC_USD_long-485x550.png


For the per capita money spent on HealthCare, most other developed countries offer more life-span than does the US!

Duhhhhh ...
 
A CLIQUE OF OPULENTLY RICH

Hawkeye10 said:
Love that movie, have even been known to run Gekko Quotes on DP.

You know Douglas was shocked and disheartened that the Gekko Character was way to often idolized and adored by Wall Street types, here he was trying to play a warning only to find that he encourage the unsavory types. Carol O'Connor felt much the same way about playing Archie, in his case it was worse because he got personally accused of betraying the advancement of America.
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Did he "encourage the unsavory types" or mimic them?

There is something about especially American values that makes some people think that Money Is The Only Yardstick, which is a deadly notion as generalizations go.

And we dug that particular grave even deeper with Reckless Ronnies hatchet-job to the Upper-income Tax Rate during his presidency. As seen here.

As a nation, we have been digging that grave ever since JFK started the process just before he was murdered. It's been a long-trek to the bottom as regards Upper-income Taxation.

Makes one wonder if the American Revolution, finally, was worth it. All we have accomplished in past 240 years is to exchange a Monarchy for a clique of Opulently Rich.

No difference, as far as I can see ...
 
Polar Bum said:
I have spent nearly half my life OUT of the United States.....come visit me. I know a lovely little hotel downtown Kabul, great view of the Airport and gravel quarries.
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Piffle 'n drivel.

Moving right along ...
 
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