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Best solution for healthcare

vegas giants said:
I know. Then it will be much less expensive
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Nope, it will be through the roof. Who the hell do you think is going to pay for it? Prices never go down when there is a monopoly.

Competition Sin City big people, competition!
 
Indian Giver said:
Nope, it will be through the roof. Who the hell do you think is going to pay for it? Prices never go down when there is a monopoly.

Competition Sin City big people, competition!
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Prices ALWAYS go down in a government monopoly
 
Indian Giver said:
Cite your evidence then.

You have a wee little problem.

It doesn't exist.
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I can cite it just in healthcare. medicare and medicaid pays at lowers rates than private insurance. Costs less. FACT. Now you will give some BS reasons WHY it costs less but it does cost LESS
 
Arum81 said:
The Republican failure to repeal and replace Obamacare shows how difficult it is politically to fix healthcare in America. Democrats are not faring any better. Many now see a single payer system as the solution. Single payer system is way too expensive for America and countries that use such systems even small ones are struggling with cost.

I read a new book titled "On the principles of Social Gravity" by Tobore Tobore. It proposes some radical ideas that involves healthcare cooperatives. He argued for these co-ops to directly own the hospitals and clinics that thier members use. The book is fascinating. I seriously recommend it.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1622...principles&dpPl=1&dpID=517-BbUIyRL&ref=plSrch
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The whole affordable healthcare problem can solved relatively simply.
First of all, pass regulations that require that both insurance cos. and healthcare providers back up what they charge with real data. If they can't show the real reason why two aspirin administered at the hospital costs $5, then the patient should have legal recourse to have the bill adjusted.
Second - Tort reform. Malpractice settlements need to be based on a predetermined scale, not at the whim of a judge. I know a couple who got a $2,000,000+ settlement because she got an infection while in the hospital and she ended up spending an extra two days in the hospital in quite a bit of pain. She should have gotten a settlement, but $2,000,000 is far beyond what was right.
Third - Set up a fed. program that provides funds for educating healthcare professionals. Have a pre-set list of fields that the funds are available for and a program where the people who get their education through this program "repay" it by working for a specified length of time in under-served locations. This will increase the supply of healthcare professionals, helping to push down costs through competition.
 
faithful_servant said:
The whole affordable healthcare problem can solved relatively simply.
First of all, pass regulations that require that both insurance cos. and healthcare providers back up what they charge with real data. If they can't show the real reason why two aspirin administered at the hospital costs $5, then the patient should have legal recourse to have the bill adjusted.
Second - Tort reform. Malpractice settlements need to be based on a predetermined scale, not at the whim of a judge. I know a couple who got a $2,000,000+ settlement because she got an infection while in the hospital and she ended up spending an extra two days in the hospital in quite a bit of pain. She should have gotten a settlement, but $2,000,000 is far beyond what was right.
Third - Set up a fed. program that provides funds for educating healthcare professionals. Have a pre-set list of fields that the funds are available for and a program where the people who get their education through this program "repay" it by working for a specified length of time in under-served locations. This will increase the supply of healthcare professionals, helping to push down costs through competition.
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Or we could just go with a single payer model which would be much better
 
vegas giants said:
Or we could just go with a single payer model which would be much better
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How does that control costs?? How does that address the huge shortage in healthcare professionals? How does that address the huge malpractice insurance costs that over-paying for malpractice suits have caused?
 
faithful_servant said:
How does that control costs?? How does that address the huge shortage in healthcare professionals? How does that address the huge malpractice insurance costs that over-paying for malpractice suits have caused?
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In single payer the government sets the price. Costs will come down. Canada has more doctors per capita than we do. Malpractice can be solved separately
 
Indian Giver said:
Cite your evidence then.
You have a wee little problem.
It doesn't exist.
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Indian Giver said:
Nope, it will be through the roof. Who the hell do you think is going to pay for it? Prices never go down when there is a monopoly.
Competition Sin City big people, competition!
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Indian Giver said:
If you think that health care is expensive now, just wait until it is "free".
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Then why does America have the most expensive healthcare system in the world? Literally ranked #1 and nobody else even comes close, yet we still lose in every metric.

USA is ranked:
Cost of healthcare per capita: #1 [1]
Life expectancy: #31 [2]
Survival rate after cancer: #5 [3]
Overall health system performance ranked by WHO: #37 [4]
Percentage of citizens insured: #33 [5]
 
sangha said:
Um, he said that AFTER you claimed he had already said it.
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Wait.. so he "didn't" actually say it?

When its clear that at some point he most certainly did.. and used those exact words?

If you had an even an ounce of integrity.. you would apologize for calling him a liar.. but well.. I won't hold my breath.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Then why does America have the most expensive healthcare system in the world? Literally ranked #1 and nobody else even comes close, yet we still lose in every metric.

USA is ranked:
Cost of healthcare per capita: #1 [1]
Life expectancy: #31 [2]
Survival rate after cancer: #5 [3]
Overall health system performance ranked by WHO: #37 [4]
Percentage of citizens insured: #33 [5]
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Well because those are not metrics of the quality of our healthcare system... that's why.

We don't "Lose" in every metric. WE are like 3rd when it comes to effective care, in the tops when it comes to timeliness of care.. in the top tier in quality of care.

We have a better cancer survival rate than the UK and better than most of Europe.

And then considering our demographics.. higher obesity, higher stress, less vacations, more work.., sedentary lifestyles.. we are doing very well.

Those are the facts.
 
jaeger19 said:
Well because those are not metrics of the quality of our healthcare system... that's why.

We don't "Lose" in every metric. WE are like 3rd when it comes to effective care, in the tops when it comes to timeliness of care.. in the top tier in quality of care.

We have a better cancer survival rate than the UK and better than most of Europe.

And then considering our demographics.. higher obesity, higher stress, less vacations, more work.., sedentary lifestyles.. we are doing very well.

Those are the facts.
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the world health organization ranking is not a valid one? why not?
 
justabubba said:
the world health organization ranking is not a valid one? why not?
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Well because it doesn't use valid metrics that look truly look at differences in healthcare.

Say you have two patients.. an American who is obese, sedentary, works 55 hours a week, has diabetes and a history of smoking who needs gallbladder surgery

Another patient is a German. Who has a very good BMI, rides his bike to work every day, has no other medical problems other than his gallbladder.

Who do you think is going to better with the surgery? The surgeon who handles the American can do a fantastic job and have a poorer outcome

than the physician who handles the german patient who does a relatively sloppy job.. and yet still gets a good outcome.

WHO ratings don't account for demographics.


That's not getting into the deeper statistical issues with the WHO ratings.
 
jaeger19 said:
Well because it doesn't use valid metrics that look truly look at differences in healthcare.

Say you have two patients.. an American who is obese, sedentary, works 55 hours a week, has diabetes and a history of smoking who needs gallbladder surgery

Another patient is a German. Who has a very good BMI, rides his bike to work every day, has no other medical problems other than his gallbladder.

Who do you think is going to better with the surgery? The surgeon who handles the American can do a fantastic job and have a poorer outcome

than the physician who handles the german patient who does a relatively sloppy job.. and yet still gets a good outcome.

WHO ratings don't account for demographics.


That's not getting into the deeper statistical issues with the WHO ratings.
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i have a difficult time believing the WHO engages is such a shallow assessment of nation health practices and outcomes
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Pretending that those tax increases completely fund those budget items (i.e. that they are completely funded by a dedicated tax) is not true. This is evident beacuse PPACA subsidies and the cost of expanded Medicaid are not fixed (they rise faster than revenue) and thus they are not "capped" by what the associated tax incresaes yield.

Obamacare?s Funding: Where the money comes from and where it goes? | Align America
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I do not see any taxes mentioned at your link that apply to individuals making more than $250k/yr and the money the ACA taxes raise have paid for the costs of ACA. The fact that prices have no limit does not mean that the ACA taxes are covering the ACA costs.

Also note that the "cadillac plan" tax was never implemented and that the raised threshhold (7.5% to 10% of AGI) for the medical expense deduction applies to all income levels. Many tax increases are simply passed on to the end consumer in the form of higher prices for goods/services so "targetting" them is meaningless.
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No, tax increases are rarely passed on to the end consumer.
 
X Factor said:
What's funny is I keep using your words exactly and Sangha's trying to separate what you've actually said from you.
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No, you keep using words that are different, and when challenged you claim they are the same thing. Let us take a look.

Here is what RA actually said your dishonest claim about what he said

That is EXACTLY how it is in the US. If you can't find a doctor willing to do the procedure, you can't get it. Add on top of that if you can't afford the procedure you don't get it. Considering you're advocating a system where the poor and lower middle class get no healthcare at all, spare us the fake empathy. How many people die unnecessarily because they have no healthcare at all or can't get the periodic checks they need?
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Here is your dishonest claim about what he said
Right, the poor and middle class get no healthcare at all. Why do you have to make stuff like that up in order to support your position?
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Nowhere in his quote does he say that the middle class gets no healthcare at all.

Here is what RA actually said
We have the most expensive healthcare system per capita in the world, yet still are nowhere near the top in quality of care or life expectancy. We have tens of millions of uninsured and tens of millions more going bankrupt from medical debt. Literally any other system in the 1st world would be cheaper and provide better results.

No, single payer does not cost more. Almost every man, woman and child in Europe has full coverage, cradle to grave at about half the cost per capita of our system. I just had a specialty appointment in Germany where I got an ultrasonic scan, an x-ray, and another procedure within an hour, and all I had to do was show my insurance card. My monthly rate is a fraction of what my family in the states is paying and the quality of care is high. We should consider a similar system where two parallel systems exist, one private and one public, each having to compete with each other. If you don't want to be part of the public system you can take every penny of your money to a private insurer.
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And here is your dishonest reply
X Factor said:
Why are single payer proponents always trying to tell me what my experiences really were?
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We are still waiting for you to quote RA saying anything about what your experiences really were. After all, certainly you can quote RA posting the exact words you claim he posted.
 
jaeger19 said:
Wait.. so he "didn't" actually say it?

When its clear that at some point he most certainly did.. and used those exact words?

If you had an even an ounce of integrity.. you would apologize for calling him a liar.. but well.. I won't hold my breath.
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Neither will I. :lol:
 
justabubba said:
i have a difficult time believing the WHO engages is such a shallow assessment of nation health practices and outcomes
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Well.. I suggest that you go and read how they arrive at their statistics.
 
faithful_servant said:
The whole affordable healthcare problem can solved relatively simply.
First of all, pass regulations that require that both insurance cos. and healthcare providers back up what they charge with real data. If they can't show the real reason why two aspirin administered at the hospital costs $5, then the patient should have legal recourse to have the bill adjusted.
Click to expand...

Umm, insurance companies already do have to back up what they charge with real data and without that data they cannot increase their premiums.

And you can thank ACA for that. :lol:

Second - Tort reform. Malpractice settlements need to be based on a predetermined scale, not at the whim of a judge. I know a couple who got a $2,000,000+ settlement because she got an infection while in the hospital and she ended up spending an extra two days in the hospital in quite a bit of pain. She should have gotten a settlement, but $2,000,000 is far beyond what was right.
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Tort reform was passed in California, a state with high medical costs.

Third - Set up a fed. program that provides funds for educating healthcare professionals. Have a pre-set list of fields that the funds are available for and a program where the people who get their education through this program "repay" it by working for a specified length of time in under-served locations. This will increase the supply of healthcare professionals, helping to push down costs through competition.
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Again, already done.

Again, by ACA
 
jaeger19 said:
Wait.. so he "didn't" actually say it?

When its clear that at some point he most certainly did.. and used those exact words?

If you had an even an ounce of integrity.. you would apologize for calling him a liar.. but well.. I won't hold my breath.
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You trying to lecture on integrity suggests to me that I am 100% correct

Read the quote of yours in my sig
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Lol, completely and totally incapable of defending your ideas or defeating anyone else's on an intellectual level.

I'll just leave this here:


USA is ranked:
Cost of healthcare per capita: #1 [1]
Life expectancy: #31 [2]
Survival rate after cancer: #5 [3]
Overall health system performance ranked by WHO: #37 [4]
Percentage of citizens insured: #33 [5]
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I know what I read from you, but spell it out for me. Is it your contention, in this thread, that lower and middle income people in the U.S. get no healthcare?
 
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