• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The Conservative Case for Universal Healthcare

Dittohead not! said:
[h=1]The Conservative Case for Universal Healthcare[/h]



Maybe when some real conservatives, that is to say fiscal conservatives are elected, the US will join the 21st. century world and pass universal health care.
Click to expand...

Just to point out.. fiscal conservatives will support universal healthcare insurance..

they will not support socialized medicine..

not real conservatives. and especially not fiscal conservatives.
 
Dittohead not! said:
It's freedom to leave the corporate world and start a business without having to lay out a thousand bucks a month for a D grade health care package. It's freedom to take a job and start working your way up the ladder without having to lose Medicaid. It's freedom from spending 18% of the GDP of this great nation on health care, a lot of it going to line the pockets of insurance execs and pharma CEOs.
Click to expand...

Except there is no free lunch here.

The taxes to support a program very possible could mean that you could NOT start a business because the taxes and regulations you would have to pay on your employees would be too hard on a small employer.

The decrease in salaries, and employment of kicking reducing your countries income (GDP) by say 10% or more could mean that you would not have enough demand that you could start your own business.

What you do think happens when the major employer (which is healthcare in many communities) suddenly declines by over 50%? You think losing the auto industry is bad?

And you want to cut healthcare industry?
 
Dittohead not! said:
If you think that keeping welfare recipients on the dole so that they don't have to lose Medicaid is a good idea and good for liberty, then you have a point.

Did you read the link? What do you think about keeping American manufacturing more competitive in the world market?
Click to expand...

Well that's interesting..

Do you think we should cut salaries in the US to keep American manufacturing in the world market more competitive?
 
Dittohead not! said:
1. The US is funding the world's medical research? Really? If you can back that statement up, then we need to quit subsidizing the rest of the world. No wonder our medical costs are out of sight. Anyway, our pharmaceutical industry spends far more on marketing than it does on research.

2. You mean hospitals in France, (rated #1 by the WHO), Germany, England, and Canada are going under? Really? Let's see if you can back that one up.

3. We spend more on health care than any other nation in the developed world. How is that a "smarmy cliche?"
Click to expand...

Dittohead.. we have already dealt with these issues..

the US is really funding the worlds medical research.. we do it through our higher healthcare spending. Techniques develop here or come here first because we as a society are willing to pay more.. to save that one more person.. we tend to value individuals over society.. its just us.

And because of that.. we spend more in healthcare and are willing to.. and that means that companies can research and start products in the US, because they make more profit here.. and then when the products become cheaper, and copied etc.. they go overseas where they are approved by other countries at a reduced price.

Our pharma spends money on marketing because they have to make a profit..and if they don;t make a profit.. then research doesn;t occur by them.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
See the thing is, people like yourself haven't figured out where the funding for the worlds medical research, including pharma R&D is going to come from.
Not only that but are we going to nationalize hospitals, if not how low will you be able to cut costs on providers before they stop doing medical work.
Many, many more things.

It's just smarmy cliché crap about "the rest of the developed world."
Click to expand...

Yeah.. but I did notice that you did not answer his questions. So please answer..

dittoheadnot said:
And, when the 20 year old kid (yes, kid) who didn't need health care rides his motorcycle into the ditch and is lying there bleeding, do we just leave him there?
When the 18 year old new mom's baby needs a heart operation to survive, do we let him die?
Click to expand...
 
TurtleDude said:
there is a difference between paying for stuff that really does promote the public interest versus income redistribution. a millionaire might need the police, the coast guard or the fire brigade. that is why I have no problems with taxation paying for those common goods
Click to expand...

If you think you might need the police.. what do you think happens to you if the rest of society gets a plague?

I would bet somewhere in your education you have read The Mask of the Red Death".. by Edgar Allen Poe?

Your castle might not be protected.

think about it.
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
Absolutely!! It's terribly inefficient. About 8 years ago my wife's uninsured Aunt had a stent put in.. Costs? about $35k. 5 months later a coworker of mine had the same procedure, same hospital, same heart doctors group. Cost? $55k.. Why more? He was insured.

Hell of a way to do business. Charge less to the uninsured and then pad the bills of the insured. And yep, of the $35k she ended up paying $7-8k(took her years just to pay that), and the taxpayers picked up the rest. Inefficient and stupid as hell.

Just give everyone Health Insurance, hell of a lot more efficient.
Click to expand...

just to point out.. that's not really what happened.. most likely not anyway.

usually most of the payment for the uninsured aunt was picked up by the coworker who had insurance.

Some of your aunts costs were paid by her.. and MAYBE a small portion was picked up by the county or a state grant for indigent care.. but the bulk basically got cost shifted onto everyone who DID pay for their procedures in the hospital.
 
Dittohead not! said:
You don't go to the emergency room for dialysis, to get your insulin epipen, or for chemo to save your life. You don't go there for that knee replacement that will allow you to get back to work. The emergency room is just that, for emergencies. It is not health care.

Yes, someone has to pay. This someone would like to pay less, but then, lots of people seem to like paying more and getting less.

In what country does the government deduct 17% from employees wages to pay for health care? That would amount to as much as we're paying in the USA, and no one pays that much but us.
Click to expand...

hmm... remember France and how well you love their system?

In France, up to 70 per cent of the cost of all treatment is covered by French social security [Securite Sociale, or Secu], with the rest paid directly by the patient.

Secu itself is funded by national insurance payments amounting to about 20 per cent of any worker's salary, deducted at source.
Click to expand...

Now remember.. that's only covers 70%.. there is a lot that's not covered.. which means that on top of that.. the French usually also buy a private health insurance plan as well...

But Secu may not pay much towards some therapies so, like almost everybody in France, the Courbets have private health insurance [called a mutuelle] to cover the difference.
Click to expand...

To give you some context, a French family member had a colonoscopy recently and the procedure itself was covered but the anesthesia was not. Most people opt for anesthesia and end up paying out of pocket for their comfort. Some of these charges are reimbursed by the patient’s mutuelle (supplementary insurance most French people pay for to pick up the difference between what’s reimbursed and the full cost of the service).
Click to expand...
 
jaeger19 said:
just to point out.. that's not really what happened.. most likely not anyway.

usually most of the payment for the uninsured aunt was picked up by the coworker who had insurance.

Some of your aunts costs were paid by her.. and MAYBE a small portion was picked up by the county or a state grant for indigent care.. but the bulk basically got cost shifted onto everyone who DID pay for their procedures in the hospital.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean any particular insured person was paying for her procedure. I was pointing out the hospitals, docs, etc pad the bills of all their insured patients to make up for getting less money from the uninsured.

And yes i mentioned she ended up paying for about $7-8k. She did get some help from the state. I think there was a couple of charity programs who picked up a few bucks.

But my point is she didn't pay for much of it, so it's socialized medicine anyway. It's just extremely inefficient socialized medicine. We might as well work together to get a more efficient program to insure everyone.
 
jaeger19 said:
If you think you might need the police.. what do you think happens to you if the rest of society gets a plague?

I would bet somewhere in your education you have read The Mask of the Red Death".. by Edgar Allen Poe?

Your castle might not be protected.

think about it.
Click to expand...
plagues, epidemics etc-public health concern.
 
Dittohead not! said:
It's freedom to leave the corporate world and start a business without having to lay out a thousand bucks a month for a D grade health care package. It's freedom to take a job and start working your way up the ladder without having to lose Medicaid. It's freedom from spending 18% of the GDP of this great nation on health care, a lot of it going to line the pockets of insurance execs and pharma CEOs.
Click to expand...

At like $23,0000/hr.
 
TurtleDude said:
that concept of freedom is as idiotic as saying the Right to keep and bear arms means someone has to buy you a gun or that the right to worship means someone has to build you a church.
Click to expand...

There is the issue of the "priest class" of physicians that you must see to get permission to acquire medications.

There are too many unnatural markets we Are forced to participate in.
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
I didn't mean any particular insured person was paying for her procedure. I was pointing out the hospitals, docs, etc pad the bills of all their insured patients to make up for getting less money from the uninsured.

And yes i mentioned she ended up paying for about $7-8k. She did get some help from the state. I think there was a couple of charity programs who picked up a few bucks.

But my point is she didn't pay for much of it, so it's socialized medicine anyway. It's just extremely inefficient socialized medicine. We might as well work together to get a more efficient program to insure everyone.
Click to expand...

Yep.. that is correct.
 
TurtleDude said:
there is a difference between paying for stuff that really does promote the public interest versus income redistribution. a millionaire might need the police, the coast guard or the fire brigade. that is why I have no problems with taxation paying for those common goods
Click to expand...

The old "I got mine, **** you!" bit.

Always charming.

How are you on the idea of removing the government from healthcare completely?

Like eliminating the need for a prescription and being allowed to obtain medications wherever we see fit? Order tests. Etc. The internet is an amazing thing. General practitioners are growing obsolete.

Huge amounts of money flow into political campaigns to maintain the current, highly profitable system. Which creates one of the biggest unnatural markets in the world.
 
TurtleDude said:
plagues, epidemics etc-public health concern.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Think about it the next time you think someone elses healthcare is not important to you.

Think about it the next time you ask "why should I pay for someone elses healthcare"..

The reason is.. you may save two lives.. another person.. and yours.
 
faithful_servant said:
The article ignores one very critical issue - the supply of healthcare providers. Take away the financial motivation for going into the healthcare field and the current shortage turns into a massive problem, instead of just a big one. There will always be some people willing to work far too hard for far too little, but that number is nowhere near what's needed. Once you "control costs" to the point that you can't pay enough to get "good help" any more (think of the staffing levels and quality of workers you see at pretty much the most cost controlled business there is - WalMart), you'll end up with sub-par healthcare providers and longer wait times. Just to be clear on this (since I know that I'll be accused of this), I'm NOT saying that the US currently has great wait times, but rather that the current wait times will get longer, so don't waste our time with links to the Commonwealth Fund study, since it only shows the current state, not the projected one.
Click to expand...

I work as a stagehand. Doing AV for conventions is the bulk of my work.

I'm a fly on the wall in a LOT of medical industry meetings.

There is an ungodly amount of money in that industry. Entire conventions for marketing alone. Millions of dollars spent in a week.

Profits. Huge profits. A couple percent of gdp in profits.

Take a lot of government waste to eat up that profit before it began to affect care.
 
jaeger19 said:
Well that's interesting..

Do you think we should cut salaries in the US to keep American manufacturing in the world market more competitive?
Click to expand...

Trump seems to think so..........he has said we make too much money - that doesn't apply however to his corporate cronies.
They want to do everything for business they can - no where do they ever mention the people working for said businesses.
They want to change the healthcare regulation from over 50 - to over 500. South Caroline lowered the minimum wage to 7.70? The Trump administration does not have the regular "Joe" in mind at all.
Problem is if they don't have enough people working for said company - what happens to the company.
I
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom