The Reverse Mandate of the Senate Bill

SocialD said:

Yea that's the same threat we are in. We didn't have the ACA 7 years ago and lapses in coverage amounted to the same thing. ANd they even do now.
Health insurance is available during open enrollment period unless you have a life change situation like moving getting married etc. You cannot go on healthcare.gov right now and buy insurance unless you qualify for the special enrollment. say you dropped your insurance at the end of the year last year and now you want to sign up. if you didn't have a special enrollment condition you cant.

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yeah, back then, i was only able to avoid the preexisting condition thing by maintaining continuous coverage. that can get really pricey if you have to COBRA.

jaeger19 said:

the data would not look different by the way.

Seriously.. you need to go check out what single payer say in Canada actually pays for.. and what it doesn't... like pharmaceuticals, outpatient therapies, durable medical goods...

Then compare it to your current insurance.

Then come back and talk about how wonderful these countries have it. When their insurance is worse than our pretty much our worst insurance (Medicaid). ,

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have you found a Canadian poster yet who would swap us systems outright? odd how silent our Canadian posters are in these threads if their health care really is as awful as some of you like to claim.

Helix said:

yep, regular checkups and low cost access to medical consultation can prevent all kinds of costs down the road. instead, many people wait until it's situation critical to go to the doctor. and at that point? sometimes it really is situation critical, and that is very expensive for the system.

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In cases without coverage it isn't a choice. But, I agree. Even here where everyone gets coverage people are slow to get the message. Just went through another education course on diet etc. for diabetes. Every male in the course indicated in one way or another they have no intention of following any health guidelines; they believe that will keep them well.

They don't

SocialD said:

Have you looked at reports of waiting times for treatment in countries that have single payer?
I would hope we could do better if we had it but if you look at Canada.
A month for a CT scan.. 3 months for an MRI. 5 months to get treated by a specialist
average wait time for surgery almost 3 months.

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Where in Canada is that?

And can you supply something more than the word of a right wing American?

It's propaganda, you've been drinking the cool aid from the insurance companies again.

Having lived with the Canadian system since I was 18, I obviously prefer it to making bankers rich. I could have moved to the US when I was a reporter, but when you removed the cost of insurance I would have had to take a pay cut.

Fearandloathing said:

Where in Canada is that?

And can you supply something more than the word of a right wing American?

It's propaganda, you've been drinking the cool aid from the insurance companies again.

Having lived with the Canadian system since I was 18, I obviously prefer it to making bankers rich. I could have moved to the US when I was a reporter, but when you removed the cost of insurance I would have had to take a pay cut.

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That was nationwide. here is a few references
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wait-times-for-health-care-in-canada-2016
Canada has worst ER/referral wait times in 11 developed countries: Report | Cana

Napoleon said:

I think people choosing to do that is profoundly different than booting millions of people off medicare and medicaid then banning them from buying insurance (even if they could afford to do that) for 6 months. The Republicans either cobbled together a bunch of ideas without considering the consequences or they did and just don't care.

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Oh no doubt the proposed plan is definitely lacking.

sangha said:

I wish we had a system as good as Canadas. The Canadians seem to like too, seeing as how they are keeping it and getting rid of it does not register as political issue in Canada. In comparison, almost everyone in the US agrees that our "superior" health care system is a train wreck.

And we have plenty of wait times in the US also. When I suspected my mom had Alzheimers, it took two months to get an appt with a neurologist.

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Hard to argue that Canadians like what they have more than Americans like what we have. No argument from me on that. Cost is the big issue. when it comes to quality only americans like what they have more than Canadians like what they have. But cost makes getting insurance out of reach for a lot of people. Or such as we currently have with the ACA. a lot of people have insurance but cant use it because the deductibles are so high they will have to pay out of pocket for everything.

SocialD said:

That was nationwide. here is a few references
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wait-times-for-health-care-in-canada-2016
Canada has worst ER/referral wait times in 11 developed countries: Report | Cana

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Nice try but both those organizations are conservative fronts; the Fraser Institute has been fighting health care since it's inceptions.

Did you notice there were no details, numbers etc.

Show the base line material. I've been through this a 100 times and the data claimed simply isn't there.

Fearandloathing said:

Nice try but both those organizations are conservative fronts; the Fraser Institute has been fighting health care since it's inceptions.

Did you notice there were no details, numbers etc.

Show the base line material. I've been through this a 100 times and the data claimed simply isn't there.

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So its too difficult for you to go to the bottom of the link and click on 'read the full report'??

SocialD said:

Hard to argue that Canadians like what they have more than Americans like what we have. No argument from me on that. Cost is the big issue. when it comes to quality only americans like what they have more than Canadians like what they have.

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It depends on which Americans you ask. Those who do not get the care they need because they are not insured are not particularly thrilled with the quality of the care they are not getting.

But cost makes getting insurance out of reach for a lot of people. Or such as we currently have with the ACA. a lot of people have insurance but cant use it because the deductibles are so high they will have to pay out of pocket for everything.

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While I am sure that is true of a few, I think that argument is exaggerated. Basically, there are two groups or people - those who have low healthcare related expenses for the year, and those with high expenses. Those who have low expenses can pay out of pocket. If the even minimal expenses are too much for them, then they are so poor they qualify for Medicaid, in which case the deductible and co-pays (if any) are affordable. If they have high expenses, then they should not buy a high deductible plan because it results in higher out of pocket costs for them. It is cheaper for them to pay extra for a lower deductible plan.

However, I will admit that there are some who fall through at the margins between being poor enough to qualify for Medicaid and making enough to afford the copays and deductibles even after the marketplace subsidies but IMO that is not a major flaw. It is more like something that requres a technical fix (ie rejiggering the incomes levels for Medicaid qualification and marketplace subsidies)

Helix said:

have you found a Canadian poster yet who would swap us systems outright? odd how silent our Canadian posters are in these threads if their health care really is as awful as some of you like to claim.

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Well.. that's hardly valid.

I don't know a lot of Canadians that would swap with living in American in general. Or other Europeans. Would you maintain then that American sucks?

Its not surprising to me that Canadians like Canadian healthcare...

The question is whether Americans would be happy with Canadian healthcare. Tell me.. do you KNOW what Canadian healthcare pays for? do you KNOW how it operates? Do you KNOW what the waiting periods are,, how you get to choose your physician or not.. etc?

I doubt you do.

I also know few Canadians that know the American system as well. the ones I know.. are the ones that have left the Canadian system to come to America to get procedures that they can't get approved in Canada, or simply don't want to wait for.

jaeger19 said:

Well.. that's hardly valid.

I don't know a lot of Canadians that would swap with living in American in general. Or other Europeans. Would you maintain then that American sucks?

Its not surprising to me that Canadians like Canadian healthcare...

The question is whether Americans would be happy with Canadian healthcare. Tell me.. do you KNOW what Canadian healthcare pays for? do you KNOW how it operates? Do you KNOW what the waiting periods are,, how you get to choose your physician or not.. etc?

I doubt you do.

I also know few Canadians that know the American system as well. the ones I know.. are the ones that have left the Canadian system to come to America to get procedures that they can't get approved in Canada, or simply don't want to wait for.

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so where are our Canadian posters in these threads, lamenting that they would love nothing more than to swap systems with us? perhaps they don't want to go broke simply because they have the wrong job and a serious medical event at the same time.

Helix said:

so where are our Canadian posters in these threads, lamenting that they would love nothing more than to swap systems with us? perhaps they don't want to go broke simply because they have the wrong job and a serious medical event at the same time.

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.. I already responded to this.

jaeger19 said:

.. I already responded to this.

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you have yet to explain their absence in these threads if their health care system is as terribly inadequate as your side likes to claim. you claim in your previous post that it's no surprise that they like their system. that doesn't jibe with the scary picture that the right likes to paint every time someone points out that other first world countries seem to be doing a pretty good job of providing health care at a significantly reduced cost.

Helix said:

you have yet to explain their absence in these threads if their health care system is as terribly inadequate as your side likes to claim. you claim in your previous post that it's no surprise that they like their system. that doesn't jibe with the scary picture that the right likes to paint every time someone points out that other first world countries seem to be doing a pretty good job of providing health care at a significantly reduced cost.

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I did explain it.. but let me try in a different way.

Okay.. your premise is that IF the system in Canada is terribly inadequate.. then there should be a plethora of Canadian posters saying.. "lets switch to the American side".

I am stating that premise is not that valid.

IF we used your same premise on Americans..

IF lets say that the American system was VASTLY inferior to the Canadian system.. then Americans as a whole should be clamoring.. left and right for Canadian healthcare. But by and large Americans DON"T want that.

So if we use your premise.. the fact that Americans aren;t leaving "en masse" for Canadian healthcare means that the American system is great..

and that's not the truth either.

the Canadian system offers some advantages over the American system. It covers EVERYONE.. and that is a big deal. it does better with preventative medicine and that's also a big deal. The bankruptcy thing is moot. Canadians still go bankrupt for medical reasons and its because.. just like the US because of the loss of income associated with medical issues. Not medical bills.

BUT.. the American system has advantages over the Canadian system. We get to choose our doctors much more than they do. We have less wait times, our insurances cover way more than the Canadian single payer does (which is why they spend less). Their basic health insurance is worse than our Medicaid.. and much worse than our medicare.

So.. if you are in America and you are in the 10% of americans that don't have insurance? The Canadian system seems a better deal.

But.. for 90% of americans that have health insurance? The Canadian single payer would be worse than what they have now.

You mentioned about working and the right job etc. Well Canadians that need or want that coverage that we have.. for things like Pharma and therapy.. they have to pay for extra coverage or they get coverage through their employer.. the same as us.

jaeger19 said:

I did explain it.. but let me try in a different way.

Okay.. your premise is that IF the system in Canada is terribly inadequate.. then there should be a plethora of Canadian posters saying.. "lets switch to the American side".

I am stating that premise is not that valid.

IF we used your same premise on Americans..

IF lets say that the American system was VASTLY inferior to the Canadian system.. then Americans as a whole should be clamoring.. left and right for Canadian healthcare. But by and large Americans DON"T want that.

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i'm talking about something as simple as posting,"yeah, i'd swap you guys in a minute" on an anonymous internet message board. i haven't seen much of that.

jaeger19 said:

So if we use your premise.. the fact that Americans aren;t leaving "en masse" for Canadian healthcare means that the American system is great..

and that's not the truth either.

the Canadian system offers some advantages over the American system. It covers EVERYONE.. and that is a big deal. it does better with preventative medicine and that's also a big deal. The bankruptcy thing is moot. Canadians still go bankrupt for medical reasons and its because.. just like the US because of the loss of income associated with medical issues. Not medical bills.

BUT.. the American system has advantages over the Canadian system. We get to choose our doctors much more than they do. We have less wait times, our insurances cover way more than the Canadian single payer does (which is why they spend less). Their basic health insurance is worse than our Medicaid.. and much worse than our medicare.

So.. if you are in America and you are in the 10% of americans that don't have insurance? The Canadian system seems a better deal.

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it's a better deal for many who have employer provided insurance in the US, too, depending on where you work, where you live, and other factors.

jaeger19 said:

But.. for 90% of americans that have health insurance? The Canadian single payer would be worse than what they have now.

You mentioned about working and the right job etc. Well Canadians that need or want that coverage that we have.. for things like Pharma and therapy.. they have to pay for extra coverage or they get coverage through their employer.. the same as us.

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i already addressed this point.

Helix said:

i'm talking about something as simple as posting,"yeah, i'd swap you guys in a minute" on an anonymous internet message board. i haven't seen much of that.
.

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And that's not surprising for the reasons pointed out. In addition.. its not surprising because people are very poor at evaluating their health coverage compared to other countries. Especially when they aren;t sick.

it's a better deal for many who have employer provided insurance in the US, too, depending on where you work, where you live, and other factors.

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Generally no its not. It would help with those that want to switch jobs because there is "some" portability since you still have the basic coverage. but you still have many of the same issues with employer sponsored healthcare in Canada.

i already addressed this point.

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Actually you didn't.

jaeger19 said:

And that's not surprising for the reasons pointed out. In addition.. its not surprising because people are very poor at evaluating their health coverage compared to other countries. Especially when they aren;t sick.



Generally no its not. It would help with those that want to switch jobs because there is "some" portability since you still have the basic coverage. but you still have many of the same issues with employer sponsored healthcare in Canada.




Actually you didn't.

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the fact remains that these threads are almost always absent of posters from other first world countries telling us how awesome we have it overpaying for similar outcomes. i don't find them to be poor at determining their level of coverage. my guess is that they are saying, "going broke because i work for the wrong place and i have the misfortune of getting sick? **** that."

Helix said:

the fact remains that these threads are almost always absent of posters from other first world countries telling us how awesome we have it overpaying for similar outcomes. i don't find them to be poor at determining their level of coverage. my guess is that they are saying, "going broke because i work for the wrong place and i have the misfortune of getting sick? **** that."

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Well.. the facts are that in Canada.. they still go broke. And that's because when you get sick.. you generally lose income and that's what makes you go broke. Not medical bills. In fact,, when people declare medical bankruptcy.. medical bills generally account for a tiny percentage of their debt.

And how would you be able to find out if they are poor at determining their level of coverage versus insurances coverages in the US? In what capacity would you know? I have worked in healthcare in Canada and in Europe.. or observed..

And I own a healthcare business in the US.

I doubt you even know fully what your own insurance covers and doesn't... and I dang well you don't know most single payer systems in other countries.

I travel to other countries and they are amazed at what OUR HEALTHCARE INSURANCE PAYS FOR... absolutely amazed. Most of them envision America where the poor and middle class lay in the streets dying if the get sick. When I talk about my poor patients getting total knees, total hips, getting out patient therapy for months.. people in other countries.. including Canada, Britain, Sweden, Germany and Italy.. are AMAZED. Because that's not available to the poor in their country.

jaeger19 said:

Well.. the facts are that in Canada.. they still go broke. And that's because when you get sick.. you generally lose income and that's what makes you go broke. Not medical bills. In fact,, when people declare medical bankruptcy.. medical bills generally account for a tiny percentage of their debt.

And how would you be able to find out if they are poor at determining their level of coverage versus insurances coverages in the US? In what capacity would you know? I have worked in healthcare in Canada and in Europe.. or observed..

And I own a healthcare business in the US.

I doubt you even know fully what your own insurance covers and doesn't... and I dang well you don't know most single payer systems in other countries.

I travel to other countries and they are amazed at what OUR HEALTHCARE INSURANCE PAYS FOR... absolutely amazed. Most of them envision America where the poor and middle class lay in the streets dying if the get sick. When I talk about my poor patients getting total knees, total hips, getting out patient therapy for months.. people in other countries.. including Canada, Britain, Sweden, Germany and Italy.. are AMAZED. Because that's not available to the poor in their country.

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i'm not talking about going broke because you can't work. i'm talking about going broke because your insurance is tied to your specific employment, and you work or live in the wrong place. that's indefensible.

Helix said:

i'm not talking about going broke because you can't work. i'm talking about going broke because your insurance is tied to your specific employment, and you work or live in the wrong place. that's indefensible.

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Yeah.. you have to help me out here... how are you going broke not because you are sick but because your healthcare insurance is tied to your employment????

By the way.. coverage for things like medication and outpatient treatments, etc.. in Canada are often tied to employment as well.

jaeger19 said:

Yeah.. you have to help me out here... how are you going broke not because you are sick but because your healthcare insurance is tied to your employment????

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because coverage varies wildly depending on specific employment and where you live.

jaeger19 said:

By the way.. coverage for things like medication and outpatient treatments, etc.. in Canada are often tied to employment as well.

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basic care is covered in Canada and there are price controls on medications, so the extras aren't as financially crushing there as they are in the states.

Helix said:

because coverage varies wildly depending on specific employment and where you live.

.

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And again.. how does that mean you are going broke even though you are not sick?

basic care is covered in Canada and there are price controls on medications, so the extras aren't as financially crushing there as they are in the states.

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Hmmm.. you might want to explain that to this Canadian.

When Gary Pope’s wife Judy was diagnosed with kidney cancer, initially his company insurance policy paid for the pills she was prescribed.

But years later, when his company changed insurers, Gary was on the hook for more than $3,000 per month.
Although Canada’s health-care system covers the cost of hospital care, many patients have to foot the bill for prescription drugs themselves. Whether or not prescriptions are covered comes down to age, income and which province you live in.
Gary and his family asked the Ontario government for help, but they were turned away.
16×9 contacted Eric Hoskins, Ontario’s Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, for an interview. He declined and did not provide a statement.

Not wanting to bankrupt her family, Judy decided to stop taking her cancer medication. She died in hospital about six months later

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16×9: Some Canadian patients struggling to pay for cancer treatments | Globalnews.ca

jaeger19 said:

And again.. how does that mean you are going broke even though you are not sick?




Hmmm.. you might want to explain that to this Canadian.



16×9: Some Canadian patients struggling to pay for cancer treatments | Globalnews.ca

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your argument is that we could solve the problem for this Canadian citizen by throwing in significant copays for primary and inpatient care?

Helix said:

your argument is that we could solve the problem for this Canadian citizen by throwing in significant copays for primary and inpatient care?

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No..that not my argument.

You are the one arguing that Canadian citizens are better off paying 3000 a month for chemo medications. That our Medicaid patients get and don't have to pay for

You are the one arguing that Canadian citizens are better off paying thousands for durable medical equipment, and outpatient therapies.. that our Medicaid patients get and don't have to pay for.