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Personal bankruptcies are down 50% since the ACA went into effect.

jaeger19 said:
My position is that while people file for medical bankruptcy.. actual medical bills are a small percentage of their overall debt
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Again, I can only speak anecdotally, but anecdotally speaking, this is not true. I personally know people and my wife files bankruptcies which does not follow with your statement.

The last thing any medical provider wants to do is push someone toward bankruptcy.
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Agreed, but...

In a bankruptcy, its likely that we don't get any of our bills paid
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...but this isn't exactly true. It is well known medical providers grossly overcharge clients and if clients aren't aware of this, they often times will pay far more money than care received. This pushes medical bills far higher than they should be and it's why hospitals will often settle for a fraction of the total bill with insurance providers and when attorneys get involved.

Its a myth that people are being "bankrupted by high medical bills" on any regular basis.
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I can't claim to speak intelligently on a macro scale, but anecdotally, I can state unequivocally it is not a myth for it to happen on a regular basis.
 
Slyfox696 said:
Again, I can only speak anecdotally, but anecdotally speaking, this is not true. I personally know people and my wife files bankruptcies which does not follow with your statement.

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This past year, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) responded to a request by Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA) by examining 5,203 bankruptcy cases from the files of the U.S. Trustee Program. The filings occurred between 2000 and 2002, the same time frame as the filings studied by Himmelstein and colleagues. The DOJ reported that 90 percent of filers had medical debt of less than $5,000. Of those reporting medical debts, those debts accounted for only 13 percent of total unsecured debt. The DOJ summarizes the evidence against Himmelstein and colleagues’ thesis as follows: “The conclusion that almost 50 percent of consumer bankruptcies are ‘medical related’ requires a broad definition and generally is not substantiated by the official documents filed by debtors.”
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but this isn't exactly true. It is well known medical providers grossly overcharge clients and if clients aren't aware of this, they often times will pay far more money than care received. This pushes medical bills far higher than they should be and it's why hospitals will often settle for a fraction of the total bill with insurance providers and when attorneys get involved.
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Well.. wrong.. wrong and wrong.

Hospitals will settle for a fraction of a bill for insurance providers because the provider tells them that either they negotiate or they will delay payment for a year or more.. while they put it through "review".

This has happened to me personally. I provided medically necessary services on a very complex medical patient. Who not only got better but was able to return to work and actually we were able to avoid two surgeries that prior opinions had stated he needed.

The insurance company then called and demanded that we accept HALF of what our charges were. I asked.. "are our charges out of line with other providers (which I knew were not)? "well no." and I had them admit that our charges were BELOW any of our competitors.

I asked "well was any procedure medically unnecessary".. and they insurance said "well no"..

"So why should I agree to take half of the money you owe me for services that were rendered?"

Insurance "because if you don't agree to half we will hold payment for up to a year or more while its reviewed and then you may be offered even less then".

True story.


I can't claim to speak intelligently on a macro scale, but anecdotally, I can state unequivocally it is not a myth for it to happen on a regular basis.
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Well.. on a macro basis the statistics say that its not.
 
jaeger19 said:
Hospitals will settle for a fraction of a bill for insurance providers because the provider tells them that either they negotiate or they will delay payment for a year or more.. while they put it through "review".
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:lol: Sure.

But if the hospital settles for a fraction of the bill, and yet remains financially stable...then clearly they are overcharging. Correct?

This has happened to me personally. I provided medically necessary services on a very complex medical patient. Who not only got better but was able to return to work and actually we were able to avoid two surgeries that prior opinions had stated he needed.

The insurance company then called and demanded that we accept HALF of what our charges were. I asked.. "are our charges out of line with other providers (which I knew were not)? "well no." and I had them admit that our charges were BELOW any of our competitors.

I asked "well was any procedure medically unnecessary".. and they insurance said "well no"..

"So why should I agree to take half of the money you owe me for services that were rendered?"

Insurance "because if you don't agree to half we will hold payment for up to a year or more while its reviewed and then you may be offered even less then".

True story.
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Which did nothing to counter the point I made. Whether or not the charges are in line with what other providers charge is irrelevant to the fact medical providers overcharge and it doesn't change the fact healthcare providers will settle for a fraction of their cost when offered cash or in discussions with insurance providers or attorneys. I could give you several anecdotes where the medical provider accepted far less than what they billed the patient, because the patient offered them cash (I offered them $1300 on a $6500 bill and they took it...and I should have offered less and I just wasn't thinking) or because the patient hired an attorney (a $1.2 million bill for a back surgery for my wife's aunt, which was a $600,000 bill doubly charged...and was settled for around $35,000).

Medical providers overcharge, likely to try and recoup losses from those who don't pay (bankruptcy, for example). This is why they will accept lesser payments, which actually come closer to the actual cost of care.

And all of this doesn't change the fact I know for a fact my wife has filed several bankruptcies which occurred due to medical bills.

Well.. on a macro basis the statistics say that its not.
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So your sources say...if I recall correctly, someone else provided a source which contradicted your sources. Again, all I can speak intelligently to is anecdotal evidence, which I fully acknowledge is not a quality basis, but anecdotally speaking, people file bankruptcy due to overwhelming medical costs. Oh, and just because they may not currently own massive medical debt, that does NOT mean medical costs aren't the reason they file bankruptcy. If I get cancer, I'm going to continue paying the hospital which is treating me, even if it means I rack up massive debt elsewhere.
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Slyfox696 said:
jaeger19 said:
:lol: Sure.

But if the hospital settles for a fraction of the bill, and yet remains financially stable...then clearly they are overcharging. Correct?

.
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No. That's because what we charge has little to do with what we get paid.. And there are so many other factors.. one insurance company pays below cost on a procedure... And the hospital accepts it and you say.. "see they overcharge".. BUT that same insurance then pays WAY over cost on another procedure.. and so in the combination.. the hospital remains viable on that insurance.

Which did nothing to counter the point I made. Whether or not the charges are in line with what other providers charge is irrelevant to the fact medical providers overcharge and it doesn't change the fact healthcare providers will settle for a fraction of their cost when offered cash or in discussions with insurance providers or attorneys.
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Well.. one that's not in all cases, I did not accept the lower charge offered.. and threatened them with my attorneys and they paid the full amount. Which happens a lot. .. and two its not evidence of "overcharging" as you are describing it.

could give you several anecdotes where the medical provider accepted far less than what they billed the patient, because the patient offered them cash (I offered them $1300 on a $6500 bill and they took it...and I should have offered less and I just wasn't thinking)
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For a whole host of reasons that's not "overcharging.

So your sources say...if I recall correctly, someone else provided a source which contradicted your sources. Again, all I can speak intelligently to is anecdotal evidence, which I fully acknowledge is not a quality basis, but anecdotally speaking, people file bankruptcy due to overwhelming medical costs. Oh, and just because they may not currently own massive medical debt, that does NOT mean medical costs aren't the reason they file bankruptcy
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Hard to argue with the evidence. And they did not contradict my source when you read the entire article.
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Wouldn't it be a whole lot more efficient if the health care providers knew up front what they would be paid for a given procedure? The descriptions I'm reading above sound a lot like a lottery. We'll do this procedure, and then find out whether the insurance company will pay enough for us to make a profit, or if we will take a loss, and we'll hope there's enough profit to offset the losses.

And, what is the cost of maintaining a staff whose expertise is not in treating patients, but in getting as much as possible out of the insurance company?

Meanwhile, the patient pays premiums that are not so affordable, gets a serious illness, and can't pay the bills medical and otherwise.


What a great system we have. No wonder it costs more than anywhere else on Earth.
 
phattonez said:
A lot has happened in the economy since 2010 . . .
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So you're saying that the bankruptcies went down because of how well the economy did under Obama and not because of the healthcare bill?

Good to know.
 
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