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Laissez Faire and Healthcare Prices

Khaled Al Razi

Khaled Al Razi

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Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
I always here the premise from Libertarians that:
If we keep the government out of the medical industry, health services will become very cheap so almost everyone can afford it.
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I did some research about Singapore's & Hong Kong's healthcare systems, and I saw how it is not cheap, knowing that both countries practice free market capitalism.
I wanna hear critical responses from both libertarians and economic leftists, explaining their position on this issue by backing it up with empirical evidence.
 
Khaled Al Razi said:
I always here the premise from Libertarians that:

I did some research about Singapore's & Hong Kong's healthcare systems, and I saw how it is not cheap, knowing that both countries practice free market capitalism.
I wanna hear critical responses from both libertarians and economic leftists, explaining their position on this issue by backing it up with empirical evidence.
Click to expand...

To be fair, both regions feature healthcare prices that are not remotely a product of free market economics; the governments of both negotiate with suppliers and providers and set prices, and feature considerable subsidy.

That said, it's probably cheaper than the alternative of US style 'freer' market fragmentation, that has minimal price setting and negotiating.
 
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Surrealistik said:
Both regions feature healthcare prices that are not remotely a product of free market economics; the governments of both negotiate with suppliers and providers and set prices, and feature considerable government subsidy.
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Any real life examples of free market healtcare.
Even if it is on a small scale.
 
Khaled Al Razi said:
Any real life examples of free market healtcare.
Even if it is on a small scale.
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I can't think of one. The US is arguably 'freer' though, and its results are much, much worse.
 
Surrealistik said:
I can't think of one. The US is arguably 'freer' though, and its results are much, much worse.
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Healthcare is ridiculously expensive in the US many people have gotten bankrupt for being very sick risking their own life.
 
Free market implies there will be competition. But with Health Care there isn't much competition because when it comes to your health, or your kids health no one will look around for the cheapest doctor, or cheapest treatments. Joe Average has cancer, he is NOT going to look around for the cheapest Chemo. The Heath Care Industry KNOWS this, so they jack up their prices. Medical equipment manufacturers have a profit margin of about 20%. Exxon Mobile's profit margin is about 5-7%. That says it all.

Which leads to another reason HC is so expensive in the US. All these companies, from top to bottom make BILLIONS in profits.
 
Khaled Al Razi said:
I always here the premise from Libertarians that:

I did some research about Singapore's & Hong Kong's healthcare systems, and I saw how it is not cheap, knowing that both countries practice free market capitalism.
I wanna hear critical responses from both libertarians and economic leftists, explaining their position on this issue by backing it up with empirical evidence.
Click to expand...

A big part of the cost of medical care in the US is the cost of malpractice insurance. An American doctor could well have to pay a quarter mil for his insurance. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if the same company sold the malpractice insurance to the doctor and the healthcare insurance to the consumer.
Part of the problem is that there's more lawyers per capita in the US than anywhere else. The country is so litigous that a minor mishap is like winning the lottery.
 
Grand Mal said:
Explain, please.
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why does it cost so many dollars for things?

because the value of that single dollar is of little worth.

the dollar's value has fallen almost the entire 20th century, at one time in America the dollar was worth more than $1

if the dollars worth would ever rise, it would cost less dollars to purchase goods and services.

but the federal government is not interested in the dollars rise in worth because it would mean they would owe more money because of debt.

1 dollar today, was worth $24.61 in 1913

it is not more money people need or government controlling the prices for care, but the restoration of the worth of the dollar.

one reason governments fail when they destroy their own currency
 
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Khaled Al Razi said:
I always here the premise from Libertarians that:

I did some research about Singapore's & Hong Kong's healthcare systems, and I saw how it is not cheap, knowing that both countries practice free market capitalism.
I wanna hear critical responses from both libertarians and economic leftists, explaining their position on this issue by backing it up with empirical evidence.
Click to expand...

Look at procedures which generally aren't covered by insurance.

I'm going off memory for most of this stuff but figure a teeth cleaning ran $30-50 in 1980. Today it runs about $100. In absolute dollars the price doubled but in adjusted dollars it actually went down.

Boob jobs, from what I can tell, have stayed in pretty much the same range in absolute dollars for the past 40 years. That means a big decrease in adjusted dollars.

Corrective eye surgery has come down dramatically from where it started.

There isn't a lot of insurance involvement in these procedures and very little government involvement. They're about as close to "free market medical care" as we have in this country and all have become more accessible to the average person over the past 40 years.
 
Khaled Al Razi said:
Healthcare is ridiculously expensive in the US many people have gotten bankrupt for being very sick risking their own life.
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That's simply not fact.

Studies show that medical bills account for a small portion of the debt of the debt people claiming medical bankruptcy have.

Its the loss of income from being sick that causes medical bankruptcy.. generally not medical debt.
 
Lutherf said:
Look at procedures which generally aren't covered by insurance.

I'm going off memory for most of this stuff but figure a teeth cleaning ran $30-50 in 1980. Today it runs about $100. In absolute dollars the price doubled but in adjusted dollars it actually went down.

Boob jobs, from what I can tell, have stayed in pretty much the same range in absolute dollars for the past 40 years. That means a big decrease in adjusted dollars.

Corrective eye surgery has come down dramatically from where it started.

There isn't a lot of insurance involvement in these procedures and very little government involvement. They're about as close to "free market medical care" as we have in this country and all have become more accessible to the average person over the past 40 years.
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Because those procedures are 1. Frequent enough that the volume can push down prices.

2. Don't require extremely expensive technologies so prices can stay within what a person can pay

3. These procedures are elective so a person can "save up" for them..

By the way.. the government is involved in these procedures as well.
 
Grand Mal said:
A big part of the cost of medical care in the US is the cost of malpractice insurance. An American doctor could well have to pay a quarter mil for his insurance. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if the same company sold the malpractice insurance to the doctor and the healthcare insurance to the consumer.
Part of the problem is that there's more lawyers per capita in the US than anywhere else. The country is so litigous that a minor mishap is like winning the lottery.
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its a part.. but not a big part.

Wages, technology, education, and oversupply of specialists (which increases costs when it comes to procedures due to less efficiency) are some of the biggest factors in costs.
 
Lutherf said:
Look at procedures which generally aren't covered by insurance.

I'm going off memory for most of this stuff but figure a teeth cleaning ran $30-50 in 1980. Today it runs about $100. In absolute dollars the price doubled but in adjusted dollars it actually went down.

Boob jobs, from what I can tell, have stayed in pretty much the same range in absolute dollars for the past 40 years. That means a big decrease in adjusted dollars.

Corrective eye surgery has come down dramatically from where it started.

There isn't a lot of insurance involvement in these procedures and very little government involvement. They're about as close to "free market medical care" as we have in this country and all have become more accessible to the average person over the past 40 years.
Click to expand...

Excepting elective procedures like all of the above the healthcare market is not a free market and doesn't play by free market rules.
 
jaeger19 said:
Because those procedures are 1. Frequent enough that the volume can push down prices.

2. Don't require extremely expensive technologies so prices can stay within what a person can pay

3. These procedures are elective so a person can "save up" for them..

By the way.. the government is involved in these procedures as well.
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The same principle applies to broken bones, chest colds, fevers, flu, aches, pains, etc. Generally speaking, doctors don't need tons of special equipment to diagnose "overweight and drinks too much".
 
Lutherf said:
The same principle applies to broken bones, chest colds, fevers, flu, aches, pains, etc. Generally speaking, doctors don't need tons of special equipment to diagnose "overweight and drinks too much".
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And the doctor fee for that will not break the bank,

Getting cancer can.
 
Lutherf said:
The same principle applies to broken bones, chest colds, fevers, flu, aches, pains, etc. Generally speaking, doctors don't need tons of special equipment to diagnose "overweight and drinks too much".
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Nope it doesn't.

When you break a bone.. say fall and fracture and you may require a hip pinning or a total hip replacement. Number one.. you don't have time to shop around for the "best price". Nor can you save up.. generally for the cost of say 50,000 dollars cash.

Number two.. it requires technologies and education that are a lot more expensive than a teeth cleaning. From x ray's, x ray techs, radiologist, surgeon, anesthetist, so and an so forth.. not to mention all the technology to keep you alive if something goes wrong in surgery.. like you throwing a blood clot.

And you don't diagnose "overweight and drinks do much"..

You diagnose cirrhosis of the liver and whether that patients needs dialysis. Or transplant, etc.
 
Lutherf said:
The cancer is what you need an insurance policy to cover, not all that other crap.
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Problem is.. the techniques to diagnose cancer are often expensive..

So if you go in with a weird pulling in your chest.. three expensive tests later its discovered you have a breast tumor.

If your insurance doesn't cover you until you are diagnosed with cancer.. and you don't have the money to pay for the tests for cancer.......
 
Khaled Al Razi said:
I always here the premise from Libertarians that:

I did some research about Singapore's & Hong Kong's healthcare systems, and I saw how it is not cheap, knowing that both countries practice free market capitalism.
I wanna hear critical responses from both libertarians and economic leftists, explaining their position on this issue by backing it up with empirical evidence.
Click to expand...
Both Singapore and HK have single payer systems, government-run hospitals, regulations on prices.

It's not cheap, because both areas have very high cost of living. However, IIRC both are much more affordable than the US.

HK may be hard to determine now, because it's officially part of China, and I have no idea how entangled its system is in the mainland system.
 
jaeger19 said:
Problem is.. the techniques to diagnose cancer are often expensive..

So if you go in with a weird pulling in your chest.. three expensive tests later its discovered you have a breast tumor.

If your insurance doesn't cover you until you are diagnosed with cancer.. and you don't have the money to pay for the tests for cancer.......
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Why are those tests expensive?
 
Lutherf said:
Why are those tests expensive?
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The cost of the technology to develop them. In some cases there is not enough volume to keep the price down.. its available but only a very small portion of people use them.

In some cases, it takes a highly trained specialist to read the tests. Particularly if the patient has fibrosis, or cysts.
 
jaeger19 said:
The cost of the technology to develop them. In some cases there is not enough volume to keep the price down.. its available but only a very small portion of people use them.

In some cases, it takes a highly trained specialist to read the tests. Particularly if the patient has fibrosis, or cysts.
Click to expand...

Near as I can tell a mammogram runs about $100-150.
 
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