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Vaccines and a culture of fear

LagerHead said:
Your example is correct, but you forgot to move your decimals. It should be 2.5% for unvaccinated people and 0.051% for vaccinated.
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Ah, thank you. It was late when I wrote that :D
 
Henry David said:
Agreed Radcen.

I think I heard on the TV news regarding the measles outbreak that some of the current victims were vaccinated. If true, was it a bad batch? Or should we consider a booster type vaccine for measles?

My dad was a doctor, so we were vaccinated for everything, and I can remember receiving the occasional tetanus 'booster' shot, as we were raised on a river, frequently going barefoot and getting cut on shells and such.
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I haven't heard of any cases where vaccinated healthy ( non compromised immune systems ) caught the measles .

So far in 2015

More measles in California, including a infant in Santa Monica that led to the closing of a daycare and the quarantine of over a dozen infants. (2015)

Another quarantine in Riverside County, California - at least 40 unvaccinated students at Vista Murrieta High School won't be able to return to school because a school employee developed measles recently. (2015)

A case in Washington D.C. (2015)

At least 91 cases in California, including at least 58 that are linked to the Disneyland outbreak. (2015)

A student at Bard College in Dutchess County, New York, who exposed many people while traveling on an Amtrak train to Penn Station in New York City. (2015)

An unvaccinated woman in New Castle County, Delaware who had recently traveled out of the country. (2015)

A case on the University of Minnesota Twin Cities campus in a student that had recently returned from out of the country. Although others were exposed, it is considered to be a "highly immunized" population, so hopefully the outbreak won't spread. (2015)

A case in Fresno County, California, which may have exposed people on the labor and delivery ward of a hospital. (2015)

Two more cases in Arizona that are tied to the Disneyland outbreak, including a woman in Phoenix who may have exposed others up to 195 children at the Phoenix Children's East Valley Center, including a 3-year-old getting chemotherapy for leukemia. (2015)

An adult in Cook County, Illinois which in not linked to Disneyland. (2015)

A student at Valley High School in Las Vegas which led to the quarantine of 36 unvaccinated students until early February. (2015)
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http://pediatrics.about.com/od/measles/a/measles-outbreaks.htm
 
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Henry David said:
Agreed Radcen.

I think I heard on the TV news regarding the measles outbreak that some of the current victims were vaccinated. If true, was it a bad batch? Or should we consider a booster type vaccine for measles?

My dad was a doctor, so we were vaccinated for everything, and I can remember receiving the occasional tetanus 'booster' shot, as we were raised on a river, frequently going barefoot and getting cut on shells and such.
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From what I've heard, it is possible for someone who was vaccinated for a disease to still get it, however it is obviously much less likely. As far as I know measles is not the kind that a booster is needed for like tetanus, but I could be wrong.
 
Who is for mandatory vaccinations that ALSO is in favor of governemnt forcing Obamacare on you?
 
plb said:
From what I've heard, it is possible for someone who was vaccinated for a disease to still get it, however it is obviously much less likely. As far as I know measles is not the kind that a booster is needed for like tetanus, but I could be wrong.
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You are absolutely right... the vaccine does not always work and many vaccines wear off over time. The "Herd Immunity" Holy Grail has some big holes in it.
 
Deuce said:
There are a lot of strains of influenza.

Passing on a flu vaccine is like failing to wear a seat belt. Yes, sometimes you really do end up better off without a seat belt. Driving without one is still stupid.

Vaccinations are worse, because your stupidity also endangers others.
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The argument is so tiresome... get your kids vaccinated and stop worrying about others. The market will decide if they are wanted or not. If everybody stopped getting vaccines then that is their choice.
 
Manc Skipper said:
The stupid put countless others at risk. This Dr knows it.

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All I see from that doctor is that he is an arrogant asshole and he would never be my families doctor.
 
TeleKat said:
I'm not one of those "OMG, vaccines give muh children autism" types, but I have noticed that the pro-vaxxers have become somewhat of a cult lately. You can't question any vaccine without having holy hell fury unleashed on you. You can't question dosage, application, or the overall necessity at all. And, in my experience, it's usually when we forgo the scientific process of questioning things that everything goes horribly wrong.
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It's been that way because the science is settled on these vaccines. All of the vaccines that are recommended for infants and children have been thoroughly tested and deemed safe. There is a difference between scientific questioning and questioning with no basis other than pushing an agenda.
 
Bodhisattva said:
All I see from that doctor is that he is an arrogant asshole and he would never be my families doctor.
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He wouldn't want you anyway because you're making ill-informed decisions regarding your children's health.
 
Your Star said:
It's been that way because the science is settled on these vaccines. All of the vaccines that are recommended for infants and children have been thoroughly tested and deemed safe. There is a difference between scientific questioning and questioning with no basis other than pushing an agenda.
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When properly utilizing the scientific method, know what happens after you thoroughly test something? You test it again. That's the very nature of science and that is what seperates it from something like religion or spirituality. There's no gut feelings, or faith, or assumptions. No "well, it worked last time." Just skepticism and more skepticism.

There's no agenda here. I have been fully vaccinated and if I ever have kids, so will they. But I do think there are problems of complacency surrounding vaccines that will allow for error. And when you're deaing with pathogens and diseases, error can be fatal. That's my only point.
 
Your Star said:
He wouldn't want you anyway because you're making ill-informed decisions regarding your children's health.
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Incorrect. I am asking questions that can't be answered but are being answered anyway by people who are either too arrogant or too ignorant to know better. Pretty sad.
 
TeleKat said:
I do think there are problems of complacency surrounding vaccines that will allow for error. And when you're deaing with pathogens and diseases, error can be fatal. That's my only point.
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...and are you recieving the same crap and insults that I am for making this point?
 
Helix said:
i'm fine with spacing out the vaccines as a concession to appease the anti vaxers. outside of that, nope. vaccinate your kids or home school them.
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Why? They're wrong.
 
Deuce said:
Why? They're wrong.
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yep, they are. they should be allowed to space out the vaccines if they want, though. that's a small concession, it does no harm, and it might convince a few of them to actually vaccinate their kids.
 
Helix said:
yep, they are. they should be allowed to space out the vaccines if they want, though. that's a small concession, it does no harm, and it might convince a few of them to actually vaccinate their kids.
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It does a non-zero amount of harm.
 
Deuce said:
It does a non-zero amount of harm.
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meh, don't be an absolutist. a bunch of people got fooled by assholes. if letting them have a bit of control over the schedule results in vaccinated kids, then the ends justify the means.
 
My concern over this issue is that there seem to be two camps.. those that don't believe in vaccines.. and those that believe in vaccines.

What concerns me is those that believe in vaccines... actually BELEIVE in vaccines... there does not appear to be any thought as to which vaccines and why. It seems to me that the pro vaccine people don't understand that their are risks as well as benefits with vaccines.. and the research is NOT settled with all vaccines.
If you are talking polio vaccines, mumps, measles, rubella? Definitely the benefits of vaccination are greater than the risks.. and we have tons of research and TIME to see the effects both short and long term.

Even perhaps chicken pox the benefits outweigh the risks.. and we have had the vaccination since 1995.

However, that's NOT the only vaccinations out there.. now we have vaccinations for HPV, for flu's...

Heck.. they were pushing my son to have a HPV vaccination at 7. Sorry but he is not sexually active at 7. And at the time.. the vaccine had just come out.. and therefore.. long term risks were not available...

And yet there was pressure to vaccinate my son. When I started asking questions about the necessity for 7 year old male.. and what studies were on long term effects... suddenly I was told that it was not necessary to vaccinate at this time. but by god.. they were pushing hard for it before I questioned it.

My point is that there is a financial component to healthcare. Millions are spent developing vaccines, and other pharmaceuticals and there is a push to recoup that money and make more. And that the consumer has to be aware and not simply accept that all "vaccines are good and necessary". Some are, no doubt.. some the efficacy and long term effects are questionable.
 
jaeger19 said:
My concern over this issue is that there seem to be two camps.. those that don't believe in vaccines.. and those that believe in vaccines.

What concerns me is those that believe in vaccines... actually BELEIVE in vaccines... there does not appear to be any thought as to which vaccines and why. It seems to me that the pro vaccine people don't understand that their are risks as well as benefits with vaccines.. and the research is NOT settled with all vaccines.
If you are talking polio vaccines, mumps, measles, rubella? Definitely the benefits of vaccination are greater than the risks.. and we have tons of research and TIME to see the effects both short and long term.

Even perhaps chicken pox the benefits outweigh the risks.. and we have had the vaccination since 1995.

However, that's NOT the only vaccinations out there.. now we have vaccinations for HPV, for flu's...

Heck.. they were pushing my son to have a HPV vaccination at 7. Sorry but he is not sexually active at 7. And at the time.. the vaccine had just come out.. and therefore.. long term risks were not available...

And yet there was pressure to vaccinate my son. When I started asking questions about the necessity for 7 year old male.. and what studies were on long term effects... suddenly I was told that it was not necessary to vaccinate at this time. but by god.. they were pushing hard for it before I questioned it.

My point is that there is a financial component to healthcare. Millions are spent developing vaccines, and other pharmaceuticals and there is a push to recoup that money and make more. And that the consumer has to be aware and not simply accept that all "vaccines are good and necessary". Some are, no doubt.. some the efficacy and long term effects are questionable.
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I think it should be strongly considered before he becomes sexually active, so you got 5 (or more) years. As for chicken pox, that will help eliminate people getting shingles later in life.
 
RAMOSS said:
I think it should be strongly considered before he becomes sexually active, so you got 5 (or more) years. As for chicken pox, that will help eliminate people getting shingles later in life.
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Well again.. that's 5 more years to see what the longer term effects are... secondly.. again.. its questionable as to whether its truly necessary for a male.. and I think there is question as to whether its really necessary for a female.

As far chicken pox vaccine... it does not eliminate the possibility of having shingles later in life. in fact.. it won't eliminate the possibility of actually getting chickenpox as a child.

That being said.. I made the decision to vaccinate my children for chicken pox because chicken pox in rare instances can be fatal or cause terrible scarring.. and the risks of the vaccine are much less than the potential benefits.
and THAT being said.. I still have a concern on whether it was truly the right decision as I deal with patients that get shingles.. have got them myself and they are so bad.. I wouldn't wish it on Bill Clinton.. perhaps Hillary.. but not Bill....:mrgreen:

The issue is whether the vaccination will grant the same immunity to chickenpox, and thus shingles... as if they had been exposed to chickenpox as children. THAT research is still questionable... its a question of efficacy versus effectiveness.
 
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