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LA county, pop 10,000,000, has only 9 active CCW permits

Court Jester said:
Varies from state to state, but in California I believe it could be either a felony or a misdemeanor depending on how a district attorney would want to proceed. If there are mitigating circumstances then probably just slap on the wrists. However in a state like California any "gun violation" could mean they will deny you the right to own guns--- so yeah there is a legal risk. But sadly in this world the risk of getting killed is worse today.... so that is why many people in anti gun states like California who are otherwise non criminals IGNORE stupid laws.
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Looks like a citizen carrying a gun that's not been stolen would face a misdemeanor with a penalty of:

1. Up to one year in a county jail, and/or
2. A maximum $1,000 fine

Personally, I would leave my gun at home if I had one


I always carried a gun to work. Did so for DECADES without incident even as it was against "company policy". Knew MANY others who did the same---- also without incident. I have no problem with that. Fact is there are so many people around you carrying guns all the time that you don't even know about--- why are you even worried?
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Because disgruntled employees have been know to go on a rampage:

Milwaukee Shooting: Gunman Kills 5 Co-Workers at Molson Coors - The New York Times


Why are some Americans "worried" about the government turning into a tyranny ?


I carried a gun to college classes when I was taking night courses. Never had a problem.
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I'm sorry, but you were irresponsible in doing that


So you tell me smart guy: If any person uses a gun--- any gun, to protect themselves or others, even if they don't have a permit.... which ethical law have they broken?
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Name me an "ethical law" and where I can find a list of them
Mr Smart Guy


What if they stop a mass shooter? You going to say that person without a gun carry permit should be punished?
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Yes


A similar scenario was explored in the movie "Flight"
A skillful airline pilot saved his passengers with a brilliant crash landing following a catastrophic mechanical failure. On;y to find that he had traces of drugs in his system. He was rightly jailed
The point was that no amount of heroic deeds can excuse what was criminal behavior


There was a recent incident where two church goers were shot dead and the gunman was then shot by an armed parishioner:

Texas Shooting Leaves Two Churchgoers, Gunman Dead - WSJ


Do you consider that a "win" ?


In your scenario, not charging the "honest citizen" that stopped a mass shooter is giving all people "carte-blanche" to carry a gun anywhere they like (even on to an airplane)
By allowing guns to be taken anywhere, you allow mass shooters to as well.
 
Daddyo said:
I didn't see a video of any of those 20,000 hostilly talking to unarmed opponents. Did you?
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The unarmed, residents fled the area, as I would have done


Arm yourself openly and start spewing racially charged threats to someone of the opposite race and watch what happens.
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Why would you advocate this ?

I assume you are a white liberal male. It's not going to end well for you if you are.
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Hence my skepticism of the wisdom of such behavior, above

(ditto a black male or female asking for an apology for being bumped into, or simply jogging through a predominantly white neighborhood)


The problem wasn't the black Irish marching armed down the street.
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Again, black Irish ?


How you can assume that is typical from you.
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Please highlight where you perceived that assumption had been made


The problem was the threatening confrontation while being armed.
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No the problem was just the "armed" bit


Employed bad realtors? How about didnt have the money to live in the better neighborhoods lol.
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Poor you, taking a lodger wasn't an option for you ?

A longer commute ?

But you must have liked your "bad" areas - each to their own preferences I guess


You know as a youth starting out on my own money was tight. I never rented always owned....
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Perhaps renting was the better option for you back them to escape the "bad" neighborhoods
I mean what fool would buy a property in a location he knew to be a "bad" neighborhood? I stand by my assertion, you had bad realtors


I was paying for fight lessons for many many years in those decades. Particularly early in life. Permits cost 147.00 back then I believe. Plus you had to have training with was another 50 on average. 200 back then was hugh for me. So I made the decision to carry illegally given the punishment was so mild.
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And the size of your mortgage, car payments (if you had one)
We all make choices, you chose to be a criminal, do you think a judge would have accepted your poverty as a mitigating factor ?


My imaginary jobs paid 6 dollars an hour as a teen worked up from there within a few years. Poverty level money for my first several work years. Live at home and with grandma for much of that time....
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So did you pay your grandmother rent ?
("I never rented always owned." - remember)


How many of the 1536 dead citizens tried to kill the officer who shot them?
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Oh they probably all did according to the officer's report

Strange how only 3 people were perceived as a threat high enough to warrant the use of lethal force in the UK,. Strange that huh ?


Will you allow someone to kill you? You did say you have a cwp. You get that for the picture?
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Oddly enough no, I'd run away or hide ... fighting people trying to kill you is really not a good idea, especially if they have a gun
And yes I have a CCW but no gun.
 
Daddyo said:
Police in st Pete just announced that they will no longer respond to non emergency calls lol. This is happening all over the nation. So you will soon be experiencing what many americans have and or prepare for.
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Another reason to defund and disband the police

And replace them with a responsible community policing service

That service not guard force.
 
Rich2018 said:
Sorry, typo: I meant to type That's (that is) service (police service) not a guard force

ie: The police work for us, they don't control us, we control them.
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Well that's glaringly false. The police do not work for us, and we do not control them. The police protect and serve the government, which I think is pretty obvious at this point.
 
aociswundumho said:
Well that's glaringly false. The police do not work for us, and we do not control them. The police protect and serve the government, which I think is pretty obvious at this point.
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Absolutely, 100% they ***DO*** work for us

We pay them

And whilst we don't control their day-to-day operations, they are accountable to the people

Attitudes like yours are why the police think they're a law unto themselves

We need to scrap Qualified Immunity. Any cop who refuses to work without it should resign and forgo their fat pension.


Yes the police are commanded by elected officials and in many cases have been perverted into our guard force but we still pay them.

No wonder there are calls the defund the police. I applaud the NYC mayor who's just slashed $1 billion off the NYPD budget.
 
Rich2018 said:
Absolutely, 100% they ***DO*** work for us

We pay them
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No, we don't pay them, that's the problem. If we paid them, then we could stop paying them when they behave badly. There is no way for either you or me to stop paying their salaries, healthcare, and gold-plated pensions.

And whilst we don't control their day-to-day operations, they are accountable to the people
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No, they're not. They are accountable only to the government that pays them.

Attitudes like yours are why the police think they're a law unto themselves
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It's not an attitude, it's a fact. Everything you've written above is delusional bull****. It's all false, and you know it's false, yet you wrote it anyway.

We need to scrap Qualified Immunity. Any cop who refuses to work without it should resign and forgo their fat pension.
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It would first have to be approved by the police unions, and that's not going to happen. This is a feature, not a bug.

Ain't democracy grand?
 
aociswundumho said:
No, we don't pay them, that's the problem. If we paid them, then we could stop paying them when they behave badly....
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They are paid by our tax dollars

And it may have escaped your attention but there are active calls to defund the police.

The mayor of NYC has just slashed $1 billion off the NYPD budget and the Minneapolis city council just voted to disband their PD

Increased use of cell phone footage is seeing cops fired and arrested for their actions (George Floyd not ring any bells)


No, they're not. They are accountable only to the government that pays them.
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Wrong

Have you never heard of a "Police Commission" ?


Police Commission - Los Angeles Police Department


And will the cop who murdered George Floyd not face a jury ?

And who elects local government anyway ?


It's not an attitude, it's a fact. Everything you've written above is delusional bull****. It's all false, and you know it's false, yet you wrote it anyway.
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Accepting it as a "fact" is the problem

If everyone was like you, there never would have been a Revolutionary War would there ?

Why are you do quick to adopt the persona of a defenseless worm ?


It would first have to be approved by the police unions, and that's not going to happen. This is a feature, not a bug.
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Nope. Qualified Immunity is a law, it can be repealed. Show me where union consent is required.

Yes the police unions will fight it but let them. It needs to go and I'm not aware of any other country, at least any other developed country, with such a law.
 
Rich2018 said:
But how many lives has that saved ?


People who are alive but wouldn't be if everyone walked around dripping with guns.
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very very very few. CCW holders almost never commit crimes with their guns. Way less often than, for example, cops.
 
While "shall issue" carry permits amount to constitutional rights rental agreements, "may issue" permits seem to violate the constitutional requirement for due process and equal protection of the law completely.

Using the analogy of protest (parade?) permits - a "shall issue" system means that large public gatherings must get prior police approval to help ensure public safety, but "may issue" permits address (only?) the stated reason for the protest (parade?).
 
dead0man said:
very very very few. CCW holders almost never commit crimes with their guns. Way less often than, for example, cops.
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Where's your evidence for that ?


We've just seen two CCW holders arrested in Michigan

Couple Charged After Pulling Gun on Black Family in Viral Video | Time



And the St Louis lawyer just got his AR-15 seized - I bet he was a CCW holder:

Police raid house of gun-toting St.Louis lawyer couple | Daily Mail Online



I bet Vegas shooter Stephen Paddock was a CCW holder too
 
Rich2018 said:
Where's your evidence for that ?


We've just seen two CCW holders arrested in Michigan

Couple Charged After Pulling Gun on Black Family in Viral Video | Time



And the St Louis lawyer just got his AR-15 seized - I bet he was a CCW holder:

Police raid house of gun-toting St.Louis lawyer couple | Daily Mail Online



I bet Vegas shooter Stephen Paddock was a CCW holder too
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where is my evidence? Your cherry picked evidence is two cites where nobody died and 2 "I bet"s.

Here is my cherry picked cite
The study compared permit holders to police, who committed 703 crimes from 2005 to 2007, and 113 of those were firearm violations.

“With about 685,464 full-time police officers in the U.S. from 2005 to 2007, we find that there were about 103 crimes per hundred thousand officers,” the report reads. “For the U.S. population as a whole, the crime rate was 37 times higher—3,813 per hundred thousand people.”

<snip>

“We find that permit holders are convicted of misdemeanors and felonies at less than a sixth the rate for police officers,” the report says. “Among police, firearms violations occur at a rate of 16.5 per 100,000 officers. Among permit holders in Florida and Texas, the rate is only 2.4 per 100,000.10. That is just one-seventh of the rate for police officers.”
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and, as is noted later in that article, it makes sense. This is a self selected group of non-criminals willing to go through the hassle of getting the license. Along with being non-criminals, they also have to be over 21. People who are over 21 with a clean record and the ability to jump through many govt hoops aren't going to commit a lot of crimes whether they carry guns or not.

All that said, most people, even gun owners, shouldn't be just carrying guns around all the time...and guess what, most of them don't. It's a hassle and a huge responsibility that's always on your mind while you're carrying.
 
dead0man said:
Here is my cherry picked cite
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OK, I accept your evidence....though as we have seen, a CCW is not a guarantor of anything.
And I'm still skeptical about your claim of "almost never"

I am a CCW holder too


This is a self selected group of non-criminals willing to go through the hassle of getting the license. Along with being non-criminals, they also have to be over 21. People who are over 21 with a clean record and the ability to jump through many govt hoops aren't going to commit a lot of crimes whether they carry guns or not....
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They have more to lose


most people, even gun owners, shouldn't be just carrying guns around all the time...and guess what, most of them don't. It's a hassle and a huge responsibility that's always on your mind while you're carrying.
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Many if not most companies ban guns from the work place (but you can still leave your gun in your car)


And although Georgia allows you to take a gun into a bar (unless there a sign saying otherwise), you can't drink a drop of alcoholic drink.
 
Rich2018 said:
OK, I accept your evidence....though as we have seen, a CCW is not a guarantor of anything.
And I'm still skeptical about your claim of "almost never"

I am a CCW holder too


They have more to lose

Many if not most companies ban guns from the work place (but you can still leave your gun in your car)

And although Georgia allows you to take a gun into a bar (unless there a sign saying otherwise), you can't drink a drop of alcoholic drink.
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Bolded is factually incorrect.

Georgia does not issue CCWs.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
While "shall issue" carry permits amount to constitutional rights rental agreements, "may issue" permits seem to violate the constitutional requirement for due process and equal protection of the law completely.

Using the analogy of protest (parade?) permits - a "shall issue" system means that large public gatherings must get prior police approval to help ensure public safety, but "may issue" permits address (only?) the stated reason for the protest (parade?).
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Georgia has been a "shall issue" state for CCW's


I have one, though unlike other states, I had to take no training to get it.
 
Rich2018 said:
Georgia has been a "shall issue" state for CCW's


I have one, though unlike other states, I had to take no training to get it.
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You did have to pay a fee for it, likely higher than that which is often called a "discriminatory burden" to obtain a valid, state issued, photo ID (which was probably a prerequisite for getting that CCW).
 
ttwtt78640 said:
You did have to pay a fee for it, likely higher than that which is often called a "discriminatory burden" to obtain a valid, state issued, photo ID (which was probably a prerequisite for getting that CCW).
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I think I paid $75 for my CCW

I think it's about $35 for renewal.
 
Rich2018 said:
Georgia has been a "shall issue" state for CCW's

I have one, though unlike other states, I had to take no training to get it.
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Rich2018 said:
I think I paid $75 for my CCW

I think it's about $35 for renewal.
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Factually Incorrect.

Georgia issues WCLs.

That is a fact no matter how many times you claim what we both know to be incorrect.

Georgia does not issue CCWs.

Anyone claiming they do is mistaken or lying.
 
Rich2018 said:
I think I paid $75 for my CCW

I think it's about $35 for renewal.
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Which is precisely why I referred to a "shall issue" CCW permit as a constitutional rights rental agreement. In Texas a LTC is required for the concealed or open carry of a handgun (with very few exceptions).
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Which is precisely why I referred to a "shall issue" CCW permit as a constitutional rights rental agreement. In Texas a LTC is required for the concealed or open carry of a handgun (with very few exceptions).
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That's the same as here

But you can "bear arms" ie: walk around town with a rifle strapped to your chest perfectly legally right

At least in Georgia, I didn't have to pay hundreds of dollars attending a gun safety class to get my CCW.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Which is precisely why I referred to a "shall issue" CCW permit as a constitutional rights rental agreement. In Texas a LTC is required for the concealed or open carry of a handgun (with very few exceptions).
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Rich2018 is being a bit dishonest about the CCW. Georgia doesn't issue CCWs.

Georgia issues a WCL which corresponds with the Texas LTC as it covers both open and concealed carry.

He has been forced to admit this is true and just trolling by claiming he has a CCW.
 
Fledermaus said:
Rich2018 is being a bit dishonest about the CCW. Georgia doesn't issue CCWs.

Georgia issues a WCL which corresponds with the Texas LTC as it covers both open and concealed carry.

He has been forced to admit this is true and just trolling by claiming he has a CCW.
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That (bolded above) has nothing to do with my point, but he does seem rather deceptive and evasive when it comes to what specific "gun control" policies that he favors. I was simply noting that the 2A is a compound right to both keep (own/buy) and bear (carry) a rifle, shotgun or handgun. Adding that states making all or part of that right subject to a state imposed "user fee" is constitutionally questionable at best.

There is no distinction (mention?) of types of arms (guns) in the 2A other than the militia clause which seems counter to the idea that the 2A did not intend to apply to "military styled" guns which are mostly rifles and recently either fully auto, (3 round) burst and/or select fire semi-auto rifles. To assert that these rifles are not precisely what the 2A was about is ridiculous.
 
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