Black Guns Matter

Rich2018 · Jul 4, 2020

Luther said:
Liberty is the degree to which we're free

Really? And how do you measure that ?
Are Americans more or less free that Canadians, or Germans or the British ?

Are you aware of any liberty "score" for each of them ?

The question was:

"Tell me how gun control affects liberty"

So tell me, how does it ?

Psst there a reason no foreign power has evaded our Home soil

Psst - Britain did and burned down the White House and the Capitol (and some other buildings in 1814)
No foreign power have ever invaded Britain (well unless you count the Normans in 1066)

They're slaves and serfs

The British are "slaves and serfs" - is that what you just said ?

Your post is pathetic

They also have to resort to knives

A sure sign gun control works....please explain how being able to use guns in crime and terrorist attacks would somehow "liberate" them from slavery and serfdom ?

You really don't have a clue
Your political knowledge rivals that of your historical knowledge in terms of ignorance.

Rich2018 · Jul 4, 2020

aociswundumho said:
Of course it does. Liberty is by definition being free from government control. Hence the more government control over your life, the less liberty you have.

No it's not. Liberty means being free period

Does not a freed slave gain his/her "liberty" ?

Luther · Jul 5, 2020

Rich2018 said:
Really? And how do you measure that ?
Are Americans more or less free that Canadians, or Germans or the British ?

Are you aware of any liberty "score" for each of them ?

The question was:

"Tell me how gun control affects liberty"

So tell me, how does it ?

Psst - Britain did and burned down the White House and the Capitol (and some other buildings in 1814)
No foreign power have ever invaded Britain (well unless you count the Normans in 1066)

View attachment 67286303

The British are "slaves and serfs" - is that what you just said ?

Your post is pathetic

A sure sign gun control works....please explain how being able to use guns in crime and terrorist attacks would somehow "liberate" them from slavery and serfdom ?

You really don't have a clue
Your political knowledge rivals that of your historical knowledge in terms of ignorance.

Really?

Really

Psst - Britain did and burned down the White House and the Capitol (and some other buildings in 1814)
No foreign power have ever invaded Britain (well unless you count the Normans in 1066)

The war of 1812 was a continuation of the revolutionary war(Lesson over)

Our country was still in its infancy and vulnerable(wink)

Remember, this also happened by bad ass American carrying gun types(wink)

The Battle of New Orleans - HISTORY

Luther · Jul 5, 2020

Rich2018 said:
No it's not. Liberty means being free period

Does not a freed slave gain his/her "liberty" ?

No it's not. Liberty means being free period

Wrong, it means to the degree to which we're free

the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.

Liberty - Google Search

Does not a freed slave gain his/her "liberty" ?

Your point?

Rich2018 · Jul 5, 2020

Luther said:
Really

Oh so you answer in the affirmative, care to answer the rest then to support you one word reply ?

How do you measure it (liberty that is) ?
Are Americans more or less free that Canadians, or Germans or the British ?

Are you aware of any liberty "score" for each of them ?

"How gun control affects liberty"

The war of 1812 was a continuation of the revolutionary war(Lesson over)

Ha ha ha ha ha - so you confirm the stereotype of historically uneducated American

The War of 1812 was totally unconnected with the Revolution War - which ended with the Treaty of Paris (1783) some TWENTY NINE years earlier.
(That's a longer gap than the one between the two world wars Btw)

The British invasion of the USA (and the burning of the capital) came AFTER a failed US attempt to invade Canada. And you feel confident to hand out history lessons

Tell me how the US invasion of Canada (29 years later) was in any way connected to the Revolutionary War

Your historical ignorance is staggering to the point of being comical.

Our country was still in its infancy and vulnerable

So what ?

Now, you admit your country was new (in its infancy as you say)
So you admit the invasion of Canada was in no way an attempt to gain or secure independence and the British invasion and capture of the USA's capital wouldn't have happened if the USA hadn't started a war it couldn't win

Remember, this also happened by bad ass American carrying gun types

Defeat you mean ?

(the capture of Washington DC is proof Btw, that basing a defense on a militia is at best ill advised)

Britain chased the US army to the Southern tip of its territory and won the last battle of the war. The British army was actually waiting for reinforcement to arrive before carrying out another assault when news of the peace arrived

Kind of embarrassing for you to claim:

Psst there a reason no foreign power has evaded our Home soil

I guess history was never your strong point
ROTFLOL

Out of interest, Russia can also share the claim with Britain, that it's capital has never been captured - unlike the USA (who share that ignominy with France and Germany).

Rich2018 · Jul 5, 2020

Luther said:
Wrong, it means to the degree to which we're free

Your point?

That your ridiculous statement:

Liberty is by definition being free from government control. Hence the more government control over your life, the less liberty you have.

Is utterly wrong

That "liberty" has no connection with your relationship to your government

As shown with a freed slave being granted their "liberty"

The newly liberated (person attaining their liberty) of a freed slave marks a quite substantial change in their "degree" of freedom - wouldn't you say ?

Maidenrules29 · Jul 5, 2020

Yes_Minister said:
I think you may be blind to something that does not affect you directly:

How systemic racism entangles all police officers — even black cops - Vox

25 charts that show how systemic racism is in the US - Business Insider

I'm going to dismiss the Vox article on its face because its Vox. The other one I will check out and see what I can glean from it. Just FYI I'm not of the attitude that there is NO racism in this country. I just don't believe its as systemic as others would have me believe. To me, If there was so much systemic racism we wouldn't have as many successful black people in this country that we have.

Rich2018 · Jul 5, 2020

Maidenrules29 said:
I'm going to dismiss the Vox article on its face because its Vox. The other one I will check out and see what I can glean from it. Just FYI I'm not of the attitude that there is NO racism in this country. I just don't believe its as systemic as others would have me believe. To me, If there was so much systemic racism we wouldn't have as many successful black people in this country that we have.

What's your criteria for "systematic" ?

aociswundumho · Jul 5, 2020

Rich2018 said:
To me, If there was so much systemic racism we wouldn't have as many successful black people in this country that we have.

Rich2018 said:

What's your criteria for "systematic" ?

Click to expand...

Whatever it is, the poster you responded to made a solid point. Successful black people are everywhere in American society, and the black middle class keeps growing:

Rich2018 · Jul 5, 2020

aociswundumho said:
Whatever it is, the poster you responded to made a solid point. Successful black people are everywhere in American society, and the black middle class keeps growing:

I'm sure that's very comforting to a black man with a cop's knee on his neck.

aociswundumho · Jul 5, 2020

Rich2018 said:
I'm sure that's very comforting to a black man with a cop's knee on his neck.

Using the same faulty reasoning, I could point to black US billionaires like Oprah, Jay-z, and Kanye.

We are talking about black Americans as a group, not individual cases.

Rich2018 · Jul 5, 2020

aociswundumho said:
Using the same faulty reasoning, I could point to black US billionaires like Oprah, Jay-z, and Kanye.

We are talking about black Americans as a group, not individual cases.

And that would constitute "proof" to you ?

POVERTY
"The National Institute of Literacy says that 43 percent of adults with the lowest literacy levels live in poverty. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the official poverty rate in 2018 was 11.8%, down slightly from 2017. But 17.6% of Hispanic people and 20.8% of African Americans were classified as being in poverty, much higher than the average, and both groups saw an increase from 2017. Literacy and income are tied closely together, though race-based discrimination affects Hispanic people and African Americans in the employment market, making it harder to earn incomes comparable to white people even at equivalent educational levels."

How Serious Is America's Literacy Problem? | Library Journal.

But let's just focus on how much Oprah has and convince ourselves that everything's alright.

What does Wiki have to say ?

aociswundumho · Jul 5, 2020

Rich2018 said:
And that would constitute "proof" to you ?

No, but it's evidence.

POVERTY
"The National Institute of Literacy says that 43 percent of adults with the lowest literacy levels live in poverty. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the official poverty rate in 2018 was 11.8%, down slightly from 2017. But 17.6% of Hispanic people and 20.8% of African Americans were classified as being in poverty, much higher than the average, and both groups saw an increase from 2017. Literacy and income are tied closely together, though race-based discrimination affects Hispanic people and African Americans in the employment market, making it harder to earn incomes comparable to white people even at equivalent educational levels."

This is caused by government-run public schools, where all of the teachers, principals, administrators, and educrats get their generous salaries, health benefits, and pensions regardless of the results they produce.

Poor people always suffer the most under socialist institutions.

Maidenrules29 · Jul 6, 2020

Rich2018 said:
I'm sure that's very comforting to a black man with a cop's knee on his neck.

I'm pretty sure there have been lots of white guys with cop's knees on their necks too. The media doesn't cover those incidents.

Maidenrules29 · Jul 6, 2020

Rich2018 said:
What's your criteria for "systematic" ?

My definition for systematic as it pertains to racism is that there is a "network" of "good 'ol boys" who wake up every day and ask themselves "how can I keep a n#$@%r down today? IMHO that is just NOT happening. Are there some individual white racists who have the power to hire/fire/promote people and choose to not hire/fire/not promote blacks? YES there are. That is not "systemic racism" that is a couple of bigots here and there. At the same time there are many Black, Asian, and Mexican business owners who don't hire white people. Have you been to any Black, Asian, or Mexican owned businesses lately? How many white people do you see working there? See how that works?

Maidenrules29 · Jul 6, 2020

Rich2018 said:
And that would constitute "proof" to you ?

POVERTY
"The National Institute of Literacy says that 43 percent of adults with the lowest literacy levels live in poverty. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the official poverty rate in 2018 was 11.8%, down slightly from 2017. But 17.6% of Hispanic people and 20.8% of African Americans were classified as being in poverty, much higher than the average, and both groups saw an increase from 2017. Literacy and income are tied closely together, though race-based discrimination affects Hispanic people and African Americans in the employment market, making it harder to earn incomes comparable to white people even at equivalent educational levels."

How Serious Is America's Literacy Problem? | Library Journal.

But let's just focus on how much Oprah has and convince ourselves that everything's alright.

What does Wiki have to say ?

Illiteracy has EVERYTHING to do with parents (or most likely a single mother who made a horrible choice about who she copulated with) not giving two ****s abouts their kid's education. Full stop.

Luther · Jul 6, 2020

Rich2018 said:
That your ridiculous statement:

Is utterly wrong

That "liberty" has no connection with your relationship to your government

As shown with a freed slave being granted their "liberty"

The newly liberated (person attaining their liberty) of a freed slave marks a quite substantial change in their "degree" of freedom - wouldn't you say ?

That's a stretch if I have ever seen one

Luther · Jul 6, 2020

Rich2018 said:
Oh so you answer in the affirmative, care to answer the rest then to support you one word reply ?

How do you measure it (liberty that is) ?
Are Americans more or less free that Canadians, or Germans or the British ?

Are you aware of any liberty "score" for each of them ?

"How gun control affects liberty"

Ha ha ha ha ha - so you confirm the stereotype of historically uneducated American

The War of 1812 was totally unconnected with the Revolution War - which ended with the Treaty of Paris (1783) some TWENTY NINE years earlier.
(That's a longer gap than the one between the two world wars Btw)

The British invasion of the USA (and the burning of the capital) came AFTER a failed US attempt to invade Canada. And you feel confident to hand out history lessons

Tell me how the US invasion of Canada (29 years later) was in any way connected to the Revolutionary War

Your historical ignorance is staggering to the point of being comical.

So what ?

Now, you admit your country was new (in its infancy as you say)
So you admit the invasion of Canada was in no way an attempt to gain or secure independence and the British invasion and capture of the USA's capital wouldn't have happened if the USA hadn't started a war it couldn't win

Defeat you mean ?

(the capture of Washington DC is proof Btw, that basing a defense on a militia is at best ill advised)

Britain chased the US army to the Southern tip of its territory and won the last battle of the war. The British army was actually waiting for reinforcement to arrive before carrying out another assault when news of the peace arrived

Kind of embarrassing for you to claim:

I guess history was never your strong point
ROTFLOL

Out of interest, Russia can also share the claim with Britain, that it's capital has never been captured - unlike the USA (who share that ignominy with France and Germany).

The War of 1812 was totally unconnected with the Revolution War - which ended with the Treaty of Paris (1783) some TWENTY NINE years earlier.

Wrong, we had an weak Navy and the British could just harass is at will

You don't think that England was still sore of the loss of the Revolutionary war?

So it, related in that regard(wink)

Rich2018 · Jul 6, 2020

aociswundumho said:
No, but it's evidence.

No it's not

It's only evidence that SOME black people become rich (outside the world of sport)

Sadly more than "some" black people die due to police brutality and a lot more are assaulted/shot but survive

This is caused by government-run public schools, where all of the teachers, principals, administrators, and educrats get their generous salaries, health benefits, and pensions regardless of the results they produce.

You mean a bit like cops ?

And no, poorly performing teachers are indeed fired as are abusive/predatory teachers.
In Georgia, parents won a case because their child failed testing and the school backed down and raised the child's grade

Poor schools are a product of many factors

Poor people always suffer the most under socialist institutions.

No, they suffer the most under capitalist institutions

If all the USA had was private schools, the vast majority of people would get no schooling

Would you make people pay for their child's schooling ?
A sort of "Affordable Education Act"
If so, do you also support "Obama Care" ?

Rich2018 · Jul 6, 2020

Luther said:
That's a stretch if I have ever seen one

No, you were wrong

Liberty does not just mean freedom/liberty from government

It can mean the removal of restrictions placed on your person by anybody or any institution

And if the Emancipation Declaration" wasn't an example of granting liberty, I don't know what is

Wrong, we had an weak Navy and the British could just harass is at will

So you've never heard of the USS Constitution ?

"Constitution is most noted for her actions during the War of 1812 against the United Kingdom, when she captured numerous merchant ships and defeated five British warships..."

USS Constitution - Wikipedia

So much for "harassing at will", huh ?
Is your total lack of historical knowledge not embarrassing you yet ?

You don't think that England was still sore of the loss of the Revolutionary war?

Nope, it was a trading empire

There was no motivation of "revenge"

When British troops occupied Washington DC, they didn't burn the city down, just public buildings like the White House and the Capitol (they also burned down a newspaper that had printed some unflattering articles about the British commander so yeah, he was kinda"sore" at that)
The British didn't burn down the general post office because residents of the city implored the British that it was too close to private houses which might catch alight if the post office was burned. It should be noted that this post office is where Congress met when the USA was able to regain Washington DC.

(this is in stark contrast to US behavior when the Canadian city of York was burned and looted which sparked the retaliation of the burning of Washington)

Bottom line is that your precious "home soil" was indeed invaded by a foreign power and your capital occupied.
So your historical ignorance has been exposed in a quite embarrassing way

No country has successfully invaded England unless you count the Normans in 1066.

So it, related in that regard

The War of 1812 is completely unrelated to the Revolutionary War

The Revolutionary War was a war for independence, the War of 1812 was a punitive raid (as far as the British were concerned) following the US invasion of Canada and the burning/looting of York.

It absolutely was NOT an attempt to win back the colonies.
Had the US invasion of Canada not happened, the neither would the British invasion of the USA

You are so historically ignorant, it's not true.
Tell you what, go into the history section and post your nonsense there that the two wars were connected and be prepared to be laughed at.

aociswundumho · Jul 6, 2020

Rich2018 said:
You mean a bit like cops ?

No, I mean exactly like cops.

And no, poorly performing teachers are indeed fired as are abusive/predatory teachers.

Some cops get fired too.

It's not even close to enough. Half of Detroit is functionally illiterate, who has been fired over it?

Report: Nearly Half Of Detroiters Can’t Read – CBS Detroit

13 high schools in Baltimore, zero students proficient in math:

13 Baltimore City High Schools, zero students proficient in math | WBFF

It's most likely the same in every low income area filled with minorities. It's catastrophic government failure, and they are all still getting paid.

If these were private schools, the parents would have pulled their kids out and the schools would be gone.

That, in a nutshell, is the biggest problem with socialism. The cops don't work for the people, and the teachers, and educrats don't work for the parents, they all work for the government. That disconnect which occurs under socialism between the provider and the consumer destroys any sort of accountability.

No, they suffer the most under capitalist institutions

Would you rather be poor in Cuba or the US?

If all the USA had was private schools, the vast majority of people would get no schooling

100 years ago leftists said the same thing about food.

Rich2018 · Jul 6, 2020

aociswundumho said:
No, I mean exactly like cops.

Are you arguing for privatized police forces ?

Some cops get fired too.

Quite a few have recently...many others have quit

Every one gone is a good bit of news

It's not even close to enough. Half of Detroit is functionally illiterate, who has been fired over it?

And private schools would do better ?

Costing how much ?

And you would force people to pay for private schooling ?

Out of interest, were you in favor of Obama Care ?

13 high schools in Baltimore, zero students proficient in math

Yes, US education is garbage

The answer is national exams in the various disciplines, like English, Math, History, Physics etc

It's most likely the same in every low income area filled with minorities. It's catastrophic government failure, and they are all still getting paid.

No argument there

US education is garbage

If these were private schools, the parents would have pulled their kids out and the schools would be gone.

Yes but those parents pays thousands of dollars per year, per child:

"Georgia Private Schools By Tuition Cost. The average private school tuition in Georgia is approximately $10,800 per year (2020). The private elementary school average is $9,110 per year and the private high school average is $11,861 per year."

Georgia Private Schools By Tuition Cost (2020)

Are you really going to try and force people to pay that ?

That, in a nutshell, is the biggest problem with socialism. The cops don't work for the people, and the teachers, and educrats don't work for the parents, they all work for the government. That disconnect which occurs under socialism between the provider and the consumer destroys any sort of accountability.

Whereas with capitalism, everyone works for themselves

Would you rather be poor in Cuba or the US?

Cuba

Literacy rates are higher there and infant mortality lower

Free health care too.

100 years ago leftists said the same thing about food.

Source ?

Luther · Jul 7, 2020

Rich2018 said:
No, you were wrong

Liberty does not just mean freedom/liberty from government

It can mean the removal of restrictions placed on your person by anybody or any institution

And if the Emancipation Declaration" wasn't an example of granting liberty, I don't know what is

So you've never heard of the USS Constitution ?

"Constitution is most noted for her actions during the War of 1812 against the United Kingdom, when she captured numerous merchant ships and defeated five British warships..."

USS Constitution - Wikipedia

So much for "harassing at will", huh ?
Is your total lack of historical knowledge not embarrassing you yet ?

Nope, it was a trading empire

There was no motivation of "revenge"

When British troops occupied Washington DC, they didn't burn the city down, just public buildings like the White House and the Capitol (they also burned down a newspaper that had printed some unflattering articles about the British commander so yeah, he was kinda"sore" at that)
The British didn't burn down the general post office because residents of the city implored the British that it was too close to private houses which might catch alight if the post office was burned. It should be noted that this post office is where Congress met when the USA was able to regain Washington DC.

(this is in stark contrast to US behavior when the Canadian city of York was burned and looted which sparked the retaliation of the burning of Washington)

Bottom line is that your precious "home soil" was indeed invaded by a foreign power and your capital occupied.
So your historical ignorance has been exposed in a quite embarrassing way

No country has successfully invaded England unless you count the Normans in 1066.

The War of 1812 is completely unrelated to the Revolutionary War

The Revolutionary War was a war for independence, the War of 1812 was a punitive raid (as far as the British were concerned) following the US invasion of Canada and the burning/looting of York.

It absolutely was NOT an attempt to win back the colonies.
Had the US invasion of Canada not happened, the neither would the British invasion of the USA

You are so historically ignorant, it's not true.
Tell you what, go into the history section and post your nonsense there that the two wars were connected and be prepared to be laughed at.

Liberty does not just mean freedom/liberty from government

Show me where I said that?(you can't)

The War of 1812 is completely unrelated to the Revolutionary War

Really?

Pray tell why the British were doing a proxy war with support of the Indians?(LOL)

There was no motivation of "revenge"

Yep, after losing an embarrassing defeat(wink)

Rich2018 · Jul 7, 2020

Luther said:
Show me where I said that?

Sorry it was aociswundumho; who in post #50 said:

Liberty is by definition being free from government control. Hence the more government control over your life, the less liberty you have.

Forgive my confusion, the pitfalls of discussing the meaning of liberty, with two separate posters, on the same thread

Really?

Pray tell why the British were doing a proxy war with support of the Indians?

If anything, the support of the Indians was canvassed by general Jackson who persuaded the Cherokee Indians to support the USA, in the War of 1812
And then infamously reneged on his deal with them when he became president, and shipped them off to Oklahoma (I believe) on the notorious "Trail of Tears"

So who or what references can you quote that the War of 1812 and the Revolutionary War were connected ?

Face it, you are wrong and the USA has been invaded by a foreign power and has suffered the ignominy of its capital occupied and burned

Rarely do posters shoot themselves in the foot, with a wrong statement, so spectacularly as you did

Yep, after losing an embarrassing defeat

All defeats are regrettable, but at the time the British Empire was a trading empire and the American colonies existed to enhance trade (that's what a colony is for Btw)
So when the infant USA gave the British fairly good trading terms (in things like cotton and tobacco) there was no need to continue a war to retain access to those trading commodities

A century later and the British Empire was way more Imperial as shown by the 2nd Boer War
The Boers inflicted defeats way heavier on the British army - especially in "Black Week"
Yet the British Empire wasn't going to lose and ultimately shipped over half a million men into the campaign in order to win it.

You think Bunker Hill was a battle of note ?
Read up about Spion Kop.

Luther · Jul 8, 2020

Rich2018 said:
Sorry it was aociswundumho; who in post #50 said:

Forgive my confusion, the pitfalls of discussing the meaning of liberty, with two separate posters, on the same thread

If anything, the support of the Indians was canvassed by general Jackson who persuaded the Cherokee Indians to support the USA, in the War of 1812
And then infamously reneged on his deal with them when he became president, and shipped them off to Oklahoma (I believe) on the notorious "Trail of Tears"

So who or what references can you quote that the War of 1812 and the Revolutionary War were connected ?

Face it, you are wrong and the USA has been invaded by a foreign power and has suffered the ignominy of its capital occupied and burned

Rarely do posters shoot themselves in the foot, with a wrong statement, so spectacularly as you did

All defeats are regrettable, but at the time the British Empire was a trading empire and the American colonies existed to enhance trade (that's what a colony is for Btw)
So when the infant USA gave the British fairly good trading terms (in things like cotton and tobacco) there was no need to continue a war to retain access to those trading commodities

A century later and the British Empire was way more Imperial as shown by the 2nd Boer War
The Boers inflicted defeats way heavier on the British army - especially in "Black Week"
Yet the British Empire wasn't going to lose and ultimately shipped over half a million men into the campaign in order to win it.

You think Bunker Hill was a battle of note ?
Read up about Spion Kop.

You're out there

Black Guns Matter

Rich2018

Rich2018

Luther

Another California Refugee

Luther

Another California Refugee

Rich2018

Rich2018

Maidenrules29

Death to all but METAL!!

Rich2018

aociswundumho

Capitalist Pig

Rich2018

aociswundumho

Capitalist Pig

Rich2018

aociswundumho

Capitalist Pig

Maidenrules29

Death to all but METAL!!

Maidenrules29

Death to all but METAL!!

Maidenrules29

Death to all but METAL!!

Luther

Another California Refugee

Luther

Another California Refugee

Rich2018

Rich2018

aociswundumho

Capitalist Pig

Rich2018

Luther

Another California Refugee

Rich2018

Luther

Another California Refugee