Proper Treatment Of Those Who Switch Sides

BahamaBob · Apr 3, 2020

The key to addressing an irrational fear is to face that fear. The fact that a number of people are seeing past the "guns are evil" propaganda is good. The more people use guns, the more people that will realize that guns are only a tool and not the cause of mass murders. The more people that understand that the fear is unfounded, the more people who can help those with irrational fears overcome them.

RF667799 · Apr 3, 2020

Rich2018 said:
And suppliers

The same way that I want tobacco companies exposed to litigation

Explain

Ultimately I want to ban guns, but that will take a long time, be very difficult or unlikely to be acheived and require a repeal of the 2nd amendment

What have I said that suggest no motivation for safety or saving lives ?

Why do you think a 12 month money-back guarantee for all firearms sales would cause the arms industry so much hardship

Do you think that more than a handful of gun buyers will express buyer's remorse and ask for their money back

If there's a flood of such people, however, surely that's all the more reason to have such a law ?

Why do you think a plan designed to increase sales will reduce the number of guns?

Chillfolks · Apr 3, 2020

Rich2018 said:
And suppliers

The same way that I want tobacco companies exposed to litigation

Explain

Ultimately I want to ban guns, but that will take a long time, be very difficult or unlikely to be acheived and require a repeal of the 2nd amendment

You talk a good talk and pretend to care about saftey and saving lives but in the end you're unwilling to help pay for a program that would result in reducing guns in circulation instead supporring one that does nothing to reduce guns in favor of penalizing an industry.

Why do you think a 12 month money-back guarantee for all firearms sales would cause the arms industry so much hardship

This has already been explained to you by multiple posters. If you ignored them the first time re-read the thread for your answer.

Do you think that more than a handful of gun buyers will express buyer's remorse and ask for their money back

I think the program you are purpoasing would result in more people doing so. Criminals would love the program. Buy a gun with a straw buyer, use it in a few crimes, have the gun returned for full refund and as a addes benefit making it harder for law enforcement to track that gun.

If there's a flood of such people, however, surely that's all the more reason to have such a law ?

There ahould be a flood of people requeatung such a law before anything is considered and I've seen no evidence this is a problem. You're creating a problem that doeant exist in order to push punitive solutions.
Thankfully your purposels are not going to happen and I hope you meet resistance and challenges at every turn so none of them ever are taken even remotely serious.

Waddy · Apr 3, 2020

Rich2018 said:
Neither should anyone
Or just aren't troubled by gangs or marauding ninja's out to steal my freshly purchased toilet roll
And especially times like these when we're much after as crime has fallen between 1/5th and 1/4th according to some stats
Against those packs of marauding ninjas
Perish the thought
May be you need to invest in a light tank to add additional security...?

Oh, look, a wanna be petty tyrant wants to prohibit anyone from owning a gun. Good thing I live in a country that respects my God given rights.

And it's easy to feel secure sitting back in that lazy boy while other people keep you safe. Some people don't have it sooooo easy.

TurtleDude · Apr 3, 2020

Waddy said:
Oh, look, a wanna be petty tyrant wants to prohibit anyone from owning a gun. Good thing I live in a country that respects my God given rights.

And it's easy to feel secure sitting back in that lazy boy while other people keep you safe. Some people don't have it sooooo easy.

how does that wonderful quote from George Orwell go? People sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf?

Rich2018 · Apr 4, 2020

TurtleDude said:
how does that wonderful quote from George Orwell go? People sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf?

Or the quote from his grace, the Duke of Wellington, speaking about his own soldiers:

"I don't know what they do to th enemy, but they scare the hell out of me"

Rich2018 · Apr 4, 2020

Waddy said:
Oh, look, a wanna be petty tyrant wants to prohibit anyone from owning a gun....

Oh look a wanna be petty tyrant that wants to scare people with guns

Like the 20,000 {mostly) armed men who descended on Richmond, Virginia, in January of this year

Good thing I live in a country that respects my God given rights.

It's a bad thing if you happen to be one of the tens of thousands of people killed and injured by guns every year
And where does it say you were granted the right to bear the means to kill by some fantasy deity ?

And it's easy to feel secure sitting back in that lazy boy while other people keep you safe....

And so it should be

...some people don't have it sooooo easy.

No, they're the tens of thousands of annual gun victims I alluded to above.

DebateChallenge · Apr 4, 2020

Rich2018 said:
By law, so a gun shop has no recourse but to pay up

When it comes to passing such a law, good luck Charlie.

Rich2018 said:
Evidence ?

You seem to claim to know about stores returns policy (see above)

I've never known of a store that would accept returned merchandise for a full refund when the merchandise is not in the same condition it was when it was bought.

Rich2018 said:
And I'd legally require this to be a year in the case of guns

Why for just guns and nothing else?

Rich2018 said:
Why ?

Why not?

Rich2018 said:
You said name one dealership, so I did

Alright so Hyundai does accept returned cars for full refunds under certain conditions, the point is that's Huandai's choice and there is no law requiring them to do so, nor could I ever imagine there would be such a law requiring that for cars, guns, or anything else.

Rich2018 said:
No Congress passes many laws that SCOTUS strikes down, so it can decide that it has the power and pass the law
SCOTUS is only involved if it agrees to hear a challenge

Such a law that you propose number one, would never be passed by our current Congress, number two would never be signed by the President, number three would be challenged like crazy in the courts.

Rich2018 said:
However, by any stretch of the imagination, any such a law would be covered under Congress' right to legislate to regulate commerce

See above.

Rich2018 said:
That suddenly the gun lobby is less than certain that people buying guns will feel they actually need them

You cast doubt that many new gun owners would sell their guns after the pandemic

Which is it, new owners will learn the joy and need for guns or they'll sell them ?

Tell me, what "principle" is at stake ?

The principle that people are responsible for the choices they make, including the choice to buy guns.

Rich2018 said:
Why ?
Is it more just to make people keep a gun (or sell it off cheap) that they don't want or have remorse for buying ?

If people buy a gun and decide they don't need it, why not let them have their money back ?
Consumer protection is a much strong principle than protecting the quarterly statements of gun suppliers and manufacturers

See above

Rich2018 said:
If a law is popular, it is a good law.

Popular doesn't mean good, it means its been approved by the masses.

Rich2018 said:
Thank you
Gaining public support to repeal the 2nd amendment will be a huge challenge and the gun control lobby will need all the luck it can get.

Support you will never get in the USA.

DebateChallenge · Apr 4, 2020

Rich2018 said:
That's early release of selected convicts to spend the remainder of their sentence at home.

We call this parole.

No parole is different. Prisoners only are paroled after they meet certain conditions which includes serving a minimum length of time incarcerated and being approved by the parole board and during their parole they are strictly supervised and have to spend so much time in a halfway house before they're let back into society.
With what's going on right now they're just turning prisoners loose willy nilly, a far cry from parole.

Rich2018 · Apr 4, 2020

Chillfolks said:
You talk a good talk and pretend to care about saftey and saving lives but in the end you're unwilling to help pay for a program...

In the same way that I'm not prepared to pay to buy back heroin supplies from dealers

And yes I know guns are currently legal and protected by a constitutional right, but I wish to make them illegal*

*For RF's sake not all guns, I'd make some types of guns an exception like bolt action rifle (listed by the national executive by make/model #)

This has already been explained to you by multiple posters.

You mean hysterically wail by gun owners....yes I know and they'll continue to whine

If you ignored them the first time...

Sure they say:

Position 1: That guns are necessary and when the pandemic is over, very few new gun owners will sell their guns

Position 2: Having a cooling off period of 12 months means that so many new gun owners will sell back their guns it will result in a major hardship for gun suppliers and retailers

I empathize with gun suppliers and manufacturers about as much as I do with tobacco customers facing lawsuits from their victims and their relatives

The cheerfully peddle death, they should bear the financial costs, not the people who don't own a gun

You're just being hypocritical

I think the program you are purpoasing would result in more people doing so. Criminals would love the program. Buy a gun with a straw buyer, use it in a few crimes, have the gun returned for full refund and as a addes benefit making it harder for law enforcement to track that gun.

So you agree that having the ability to track guns helps law enforcement ? national registry ?

Anyway, your example is ridiculous. What criminal in the right mind would hand back a gun that had been used i a crime and publicly identify themselves with it (rather than throwing it into a deep river) ?

That would make it SO easy for law enforcement to track.

There should be a flood of people requeatung such a law before anything is considered and I've seen no evidence this is a problem. You're creating a problem that doeant exist in order to push punitive solutions.

There isn't a problem with private ownership of guns ?

I have to admit this solution (in the absence of a total ban - with caveats etc) only occurred to me recently and I think I'll send it for consideration to gun control groups with representation in Congress

Thankfully your purposels are not going to happen...

Says who ?

And please spare me the smart all reply of someone like Danny who say something like "reality", or "anyone who can think"

Rich2018 · Apr 4, 2020

DebateChallenge said:
When it comes to passing such a law, good luck Charlie.

If you think such a law is so unlikely, why the hysteria ?

First it was good luck making them, then when it was pointed out it would be by law you say such a law won't be passed.
Continue to move your goal posts

Charlie

I've never known of a store that would accept returned merchandise for a full refund when the merchandise is not in the same condition it was when it was bought.

That's called an argument from ignorance

Just because you don't know of any examples, doesn't mean it doesn't happen

Why for just guns and nothing else?

Because this would be part of gun control and this is a gun control forum
And guns need more control

Why not?

So you have no real justification

Would you accept "why not" as ac reason for banning guns ?

...the point is that's Huandai's choice and there is no law requiring them to do so...

No, your attempted point was that no-one offers a money back guarantee, showing that such a idea is without precedent. You asked for any car dealer to who has such a policy to demonstrate this
I provided you with one to demonstrate you were wrong and there is already a voluntary precedent of a cooling off period

I have said I would make this compulsory regarding guns

Such a law that you propose number one, would never be passed by our current Congress, number two would never be signed by the President, number three would be challenged like crazy in the courts.

1. Says who ?
2. Says who - I've been in debate with posters on here who claim that Trump is not really pro-gun and this time next year Biden might be president, and he is definitely not pro-gun
3. What might be the challenge, it doesn't breach the Constitution at all, and Congress has the enumerated right to regulate commerce

The principle that people are responsible for the choices they make, including the choice to buy guns.

The law already mandates a "cooling off" periods when buying real estate or a mortgage for instance
So it's your principle vs my precedent

And there goes your legal challenge fantasy also

Popular doesn't mean good, it means its been approved by the masses.

Yes it does

When has a popular law ever not been "good" ?

Support you will never get in the USA.

But with your wises of good luck still encouraging the gun control lobby, who know what they can achieve

The mandatory gun cooling off period would get wide support in Congress IMO and wouldn't be too hard to pass.

Waddy · Apr 4, 2020

Rich2018 said:
Oh look a wanna be petty tyrant that wants to scare people with guns

Like the 20,000 {mostly) armed men who descended on Richmond, Virginia, in January of this year

It's a bad thing if you happen to be one of the tens of thousands of people killed and injured by guns every year
And where does it say you were granted the right to bear the means to kill by some fantasy deity ?

And so it should be

No, they're the tens of thousands of annual gun victims I alluded to above.

So you're afraid of being a victim? Well, just stay away from guns, and leave the rest of us alone.

Rich2018 · Apr 4, 2020

DebateChallenge said:
No parole is different. Prisoners only are paroled after they meet certain conditions which includes serving a minimum length of time incarcerated and being approved by the parole board and during their parole they are strictly supervised and have to spend so much time in a halfway house before they're let back into society.
With what's going on right now they're just turning prisoners loose willy nilly, a far cry from parole.

And the same state that incarcerates those prisoners is the same state that determines how long a parole period might be.

A state governor has the legal right to release anyone in his/her state on parole.

Rich2018 · Apr 4, 2020

Waddy said:
So you're afraid of being a victim? Well, just stay away from guns, and leave the rest of us alone.

Yes

And how do you suggest anyone "stays away from guns" ?

If you hadn't noticed men with guns go out of their way to kill people.

Waddy · Apr 4, 2020

Rich2018 said:
Yes

And how do you suggest anyone "stays away from guns" ?

If you hadn't noticed men with guns go out of their way to kill people.

And that's what's got you scared. And, yes, there are probably plenty of people with guns who want to kill you. So better to stay hunkered down in that lazy boy, and let the rest of us protect your delicate self.

Rich2018 · Apr 4, 2020

Waddy said:
...yes, there are probably plenty of people with guns who want to kill you...

QED

And you think they should have a constitutional right to own a gun ?

Fledermaus · Apr 4, 2020

Rich2018 said:
Yes

And how do you suggest anyone "stays away from guns" ?

Number one suggestion is to not be involved with criminal actions like dealing drugs.

Rich2018 said:
If you hadn't noticed men with guns go out of their way to kill people.

But you want innocent law abiding potential victims disarmed.....

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Waddy · Apr 4, 2020

Waddy; ...yes, there are probably plenty of people with guns who want to kill you...

Rich2018 said:
QED

And you think they should have a constitutional right to own a gun ?

varmint shooters deserve the same rights as everyone else.

Rich2018 · Apr 4, 2020

zsu2357 said:
And that person/s that want more gun control, then more and more while retaining their shotgun or Grandads old deer rifle will consistently vote (FUDDS) (D).

Where's your evidence that people who own guns and are in favor of more gun control have only old weapons.

BahamaBob · Apr 4, 2020

Rich2018 said:
Yes

And how do you suggest anyone "stays away from guns" ?

If you hadn't noticed men with guns go out of their way to kill people.

Yeah, they are those same men you want to release from prison.

Rich2018 · Apr 5, 2020

Waddy said:
Waddy; ...yes, there are probably plenty of people with guns who want to kill you...

varmint shooters deserve the same rights as everyone else.

And you link the latter with the former ?

:werd

Rich2018 · Apr 5, 2020

BahamaBob said:
Yeah, they are those same men you want to release from prison.

Which men do you claim I want to release from prison and in what post ?

Because I don't remember advocating that people, convicted of violent crime, are released prior to their sentence ending.

Waddy · Apr 5, 2020

Rich2018 said:
And you link the latter with the former ?

:werd

went right over your head.....

Rich2018 · Apr 5, 2020

Waddy said:
went right over your head.....

What did ?

Waddy · Apr 5, 2020

Rich2018 said:
What did ?

............

Proper Treatment Of Those Who Switch Sides

warrior of the wetlands