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Comparing Peer Countries

What we're discussing is in the sphere of Sociology. Like economics, it isn't a hard science.

No it sciences like medicine too

17 "peer countries" of the USA:

6 Social Factors | U.S. Health in International Perspective: Shorter Lives, Poorer Health | The National Academies Press


(Chart near the bottom)



They are free to "call" any country a "peer" of the USA.

Many people do. Many scientists, the concept of a "peer country" is not new and it's well established

Go head and say your opinion trumps all that


...and that's why sociology has very little value, and can't make accurate predictions....


Like economics ?

That's a social science too...politics as well
Not sure why this is important though

Medical doctors make predictions...they use the term "peer countries"


What I am pointing out is the limits of such "soft" sciences. Astrology can make just about as good a prediction as any sociologist. And economists exist to make weather forecasters look good.

Astrology isn't a science
And a social science studies people, who aren't predictable as weather patterns


Culture, for instance; Here we have a natural disaster and people go running to the gun store. Because there will be looting, killings, rapes, robbery, as many people seek to take advantage of the social breakdown.

???

Did you not just say that social sciences can't make good predictions and yet you just tried to make one ?


I lived in Japan for 4 years. A natural disaster there and everybody pitches in, helping. No looting, no big upsurge in crime, just a community working together.


So the people in Japan are better when it comes to conscience
But again, so what ?


So what I'm asking is to show me another country comparable on that criteria and then we could have a pretty good discussion.

The 17 listed in the graph, in the link I gave you.
 
No it sciences like medicine too

17 "peer countries" of the USA:

6 Social Factors | U.S. Health in International Perspective: Shorter Lives, Poorer Health | The National Academies Press


(Chart near the bottom)





Many people do. Many scientists, the concept of a "peer country" is not new and it's well established

Go head and say your opinion trumps all that





Like economics ?

That's a social science too...politics as well
Not sure why this is important though

Medical doctors make predictions...they use the term "peer countries"




Astrology isn't a science
And a social science studies people, who aren't predictable as weather patterns




???

Did you not just say that social sciences can't make good predictions and yet you just tried to make one ?





So the people in Japan are better when it comes to conscience
But again, so what ?




The 17 listed in the graph, in the link I gave you.

You missed the point again. It's not that the Japanese are better than us, it's that they have a very different CULTURE, which makes comparisons between them and the USA very difficult and unreliable.

Sweden is a "peer" country to the USA? France... Norway...... LMAO!!!!..... You GOT to be kidding !!!

Again, show me a country that is similar to the USA in size, diversity, culture, and economic power. That country I will gladly classify as a "peer" of the USA. So you got nothing? Come, on', man, show me a real comparable country.
 
You missed the point again. It's not that the Japanese are better than us, it's that they have a very different CULTURE, which makes comparisons between them and the USA very difficult and unreliable.

Sweden is a "peer" country to the USA? France... Norway...... LMAO!!!!..... You GOT to be kidding !!!

Again, show me a country that is similar to the USA in size, diversity, culture, and economic power. That country I will gladly classify as a "peer" of the USA. So you got nothing? Come, on', man, show me a real comparable country.
I totally agree.

No other country has the 2nd
amendment.

No other country has as much diversity.

No other country has at its base such a history of manifest destiny and importance on self reliance and self protection.
 
I totally agree.

No other country has the 2nd
amendment.

No other country has as much diversity.

No other country has at its base such a history of manifest destiny and importance on self reliance and self protection.

I see you understand cultural differences. Thank you.
 
You missed the point again. It's not that the Japanese are better than us, it's that they have a very different CULTURE...

No, it's you who miss the point
I didn't say they are or that they don't respectively


...which makes comparisons between them and the USA very difficult and unreliable.


No it doesn't
Only inconsistent data recording or unreliable data collection would do this
You have no clue about statistics do you ?

Have you any experience in math/statistics beyond high school ?


Sweden is a "peer" country to the USA? France... Norway...... LMAO!!!!..... You GOT to be kidding !!!

Yes absolutely Sweden is
Absolutely Norway and France are too:


"U.S. poverty rates higher, safety net weaker than in peer countries..."


ib339-figureA.jpg


U.S. poverty rates higher, safety net weaker than in peer countries | Economic Policy Institute


Notice the presence of Norway, Sweden and France ?

Now who's "kidding". What do you have as a list of "peer countries" - other than your own, highly parochial, opinion ?


Again, show me a country that is similar to the USA in size, diversity, culture, and economic power. That country I will gladly classify as a "peer" of the USA. So you got nothing? Come, on', man, show me a real comparable country.


See the above list.

If you dispute the above list, give your own list of "peer" countries...or admit your criteria for one is a private matter between you and yourself.
 
That's like saying no-one else in the USA has a pair of pants like yours, so if you're ever tried for murder, you have no peers to make up a jury with.
You are comparing apples and oranges sir. Dont be disingenuous you are smarter than that. You know that no other country has the right to bear arms OR gives its citizens so much power to defend themselves. There is no comparison period.
 
No, it's you who miss the point
I didn't say they are or that they don't respectively





No it doesn't
Only inconsistent data recording or unreliable data collection would do this
You have no clue about statistics do you ?

Have you any experience in math/statistics beyond high school ?




Yes absolutely Sweden is
Absolutely Norway and France are too:


"U.S. poverty rates higher, safety net weaker than in peer countries..."


View attachment 67276218


U.S. poverty rates higher, safety net weaker than in peer countries | Economic Policy Institute


Notice the presence of Norway, Sweden and France ?

Now who's "kidding". What do you have as a list of "peer countries" - other than your own, highly parochial, opinion ?





See the above list.

If you dispute the above list, give your own list of "peer" countries...or admit your criteria for one is a private matter between you and yourself.

A good comparison for Sweden might be ONE US state. We have states bigger than Sweden. Same for France. Same for Norway. Comparing one small country to a giant continent wide country is foolish, and not accurate. Crap, California alone has a bigger GDP than all of those countries combined. Compare apples to apples, and oranges to oranges.

So, sorry, you fail on every point. I should have suggested it earlier, but I was waiting on you to make the correct comparison. But since you didn't, I'll go ahead and help out.

The USA is actually almost an entire continent. Since 95% of Canadians live on that border, let's include them. So consider the USA for all intents and comparisons the North American continent.

So the best way to compare the USA is to other continents. If you include ALL of Europe then include Russia and Eastern Europe along with it. Or compare the USA to ALL of Asia, or compare it to All of Africa or All of South America.

And then account for differences in culture, differences in economic systems, and history.

That could be an interesting discussion. But comparing apples and oranges is fruitless...... pun intended.
 
Last edited:
A good comparison for Sweden might be ONE US state...

No the whole USA

By your criteria the USA is without peers

That is wrong and contradicts country comparisons that DO compare the USA with other similar (or peer) countries


...you fail on every point. ...

No, YOU do and what's more evidence supports that
You have nothing to substantiate your opinion with
Nothing but you personal opinion, which is worthless


You've never been to college and submitted a paper have you ?


...I was waiting on you to make the correct comparison....

Sorry guy but you don't get to say what "correct" is in this context

Others do and invariably they compare the US with "peer countries" as supportive evidence shows

And you have NOTHING but your own, worthless, opinion

The USA is actually almost an entire continent. Since 95% of Canadians live on that border, let's include them. So consider the USA for all intents and comparisons the North American continent....

What about Mexico ?
I mean you DID know that Mexico was part of the same continent as the USA ?


So the best way to compare the USA is to other continents.

So a continent like Australia (inc New Zealand) should be compared to Canada, USA and Mexico combined?
That makes no sense at all

Stupid idea - can you quote anyone who shares such a stupid idea ?


So enough of your little parochial ideas and focus on what other people and organizations, who've actually published peer reviewed papers, think.
 
No the whole USA

By your criteria the USA is without peers

That is wrong and contradicts country comparisons that DO compare the USA with other similar (or peer) countries




No, YOU do and what's more evidence supports that
You have nothing to substantiate your opinion with
Nothing but you personal opinion, which is worthless


You've never been to college and submitted a paper have you ?




Sorry guy but you don't get to say what "correct" is in this context

Others do and invariably they compare the US with "peer countries" as supportive evidence shows

And you have NOTHING but your own, worthless, opinion



What about Mexico ?
I mean you DID know that Mexico was part of the same continent as the USA ?




So a continent like Australia (inc New Zealand) should be compared to Canada, USA and Mexico combined?
That makes no sense at all

Stupid idea - can you quote anyone who shares such a stupid idea ?


So enough of your little parochial ideas and focus on what other people and organizations, who've actually published peer reviewed papers, think.

I accept your surrender.
 
I accept your surrender.

In the same way that the USA accepted North Vietnam's "surrender", then go the hell out of the fight.


Must be great having such a criteria for "surrender".


:lamo
 
So since neither the USA or you personally have an "exact copy", you have no peers ?

Would that present a problem in gathering a jury of 12 of your "peers" should you ever be tried for a crime ?

Or would they have to get people "roughly the same" to act as "peers" ?


Same with country comparisons
A peer is not the same thing as a facsimile.

You did say:



And that the UK is not a peer country - even though peer country comparisons with the USA always list the UK


Then you said:




So, what countries could you consider a peer country to the USA on any topic, not just guns ?
None





So why do you keep mentioning guns laws and gun crime in Maine ?
Because Maine is an example of a state that is very gun friendly and that has a low violent crime rate in general.




So in your opinion, the USA can only compared to itself (a totally meaningless statement) regarding guns
And by extension, could the USA only be compared "to itself" regarding transportation
Could the USA only be compared "to itself" with regard to cable TV ?
I see no point in comparing stuff such as transportation and cable TV.

That's unusual. People who are against gun rights usually didn't go to school.

You understand that comparing something "to itself" is self contradictory and utterly senseless ?
Not necessarily. You could compare a place to itself based on the effects that take place after enacting more or less gun control.
 
As a matter of fact I wouldn't.


But others would

A lot of others

Others whose business is making international comparison.

Would you compare any other US state to California ?


Interesting how you've quoted UK data in the past then isn't it ?


A peer is not the same thing as a facsimile.

???

Did not the post you were replying to say:

"So since neither the USA or you personally have an "exact copy", you have no peers ?"


ie: Since countries can't have "exact copies" (or facsimiles), are you saying they can't have peers ?


Because Maine is an example of a state that is very gun friendly and that has a low violent crime rate in general.

But so what ? Because it isn't a facsimile of any other US state
So why are their gun crimes relevant elsewhere ?

Other states have different population, wealth, geographical areas.

How can Maine's crime rate possibly be relevant to another US state ?


I see no point in comparing stuff such as transportation and cable TV.

But then, why do you see a point in comparing gun laws and gun crime ?


People who are against gun rights usually didn't go to school.

I went to school
Joe Biden went to school
John Paul Stevens went to school

What evidence do you have for that? Another gem you pulled from your @ss ?


Which advocates of gun control, can you name, that didn't go to school ?


You could compare a place to itself based on the effects that take place after enacting more or less gun control.

That's comparing different times

NYC today is not the same city as NYC in 1800


You really don't understand this comparison/peer business at all.


You remind me of a previous poster who stated something about the US Supreme Court, only to be contradicted by their own web page
He said the SC was wrong and he knew more about them, than they knew about themselves


There are many articles listing the USA's "peer countries" - which you say are wrong
You're making yourself look ridiculous.
 
But others would

A lot of others

Others whose business is making international comparison.

Would you compare any other US state to California ?


Interesting how you've quoted UK data in the past then isn't it ?
If we're going to compare the USA to other countries in regards to gun control, or in regards to anything, all countries are fair game. You can't cherry pick and only look at countries such as the UK, we also have to include countries such as Brazil and Mexico and all the other countries on the globe.

???

Did not the post you were replying to say:

"So since neither the USA or you personally have an "exact copy", you have no peers ?"


ie: Since countries can't have "exact copies" (or facsimiles), are you saying they can't have peers ?
It depends on how you define the word "peer."

But so what ? Because it isn't a facsimile of any other US state
So why are their gun crimes relevant elsewhere ?

Other states have different population, wealth, geographical areas.

How can Maine's crime rate possibly be relevant to another US state ?
If we're looking for exact facsimiles than Maine's crime rate is not relevant to crime rates in other states.

But then, why do you see a point in comparing gun laws and gun crime ?
Gun laws and gun crime are totally different from transportation and cable television, you make no sense when you bring stuff into the conversation from left field.

I went to school
Joe Biden went to school
John Paul Stevens went to school

What evidence do you have for that? Another gem you pulled from your @ss ?
Gun grabbers are not scholars and they tend to be not all that bright. School teaches you to think, something gun grabbers don't do. I wouldn't be surprised if most gun grabbers had some school, I would say its perhaps common for gun grabbers to have gotten through the third grade or so, but as a general rule the crowd of gun grabbers is an uneducated crowd.


Which advocates of gun control, can you name, that didn't go to school ?

That's comparing different times

NYC today is not the same city as NYC in 1800


You really don't understand this comparison/peer business at all.


You remind me of a previous poster who stated something about the US Supreme Court, only to be contradicted by their own web page
He said the SC was wrong and he knew more about them, than they knew about themselves
So different times can be compared provided they're not too far apart. For example in May 24, 2016 West Virginia introduced constitutional carry. We can look at how that effected violent crime in the state, the rate of crime before it was enacted vs the rate of crime after it was enacted. We don't have to compare a time period from over two centuries ago as you mention.

There are many articles listing the USA's "peer countries" - which you say are wrong
You're making yourself look ridiculous.
The only people who are making themselves look ridiculous are the gun grabbing crowd.
 
...you know that no other country has the right to bear arms OR gives its citizens so much power to defend themselves. There is no comparison period.

So you are saying that the USA can only be compared with other countries that have a constitution right to bear arms, with relation to gun related crime/deaths/injuries.

Even if that country was a third world, tin pot dictatorship ?
 
If we're going to compare the USA to other countries in regards to gun control, or in regards to anything, all countries are fair game. You can't cherry pick...

Absolutely you can and indeed you must

You compare the USA with "peer countries", not some third world tin pot dictatorship.

Why do you think there are international comparisons between the USA and other "peer countries" that surprisingly do not include the likes of El Salvador or Brazil? Comparing the USA to those is indeed "cherry picking"



It depends on how you define the word "peer."

Peer countries:

meaning in context - What does "peer country" mean? - English Language Learners Stack Exchange


If we're looking for exact facsimiles than Maine's crime rate is not relevant to crime rates in other states.

No

You might be accused of "cherry picking"

Look at the states with the highest violent crime stats - the top 5 all have liberal gun laws


Gun laws and gun crime are totally different from transportation and cable television...

How and in what way

What makes one harder or easier to compare than the other ?


Gun grabbers are not scholars and they tend to be not all that bright...as a general rule the crowd of gun grabbers is an uneducated crowd


What evidence do you have of this ?



which advocates of gun control, can you name, that didn't go to school ?

It's your claim, not mine



...May 24, 2016 West Virginia introduced constitutional carry. We can look at how that effected violent crime in the state, the rate of crime before it was enacted vs the rate of crime after it was enacted. We don't have to compare a time period from over two centuries ago as you mention.

But you did exactly that with NYC


What are your figures for W.Virginia ?


The only people who are making themselves look ridiculous are the gun grabbing crowd.


How ?

They're the only ones with a sane argument.
 
Absolutely you can and indeed you must

You compare the USA with "peer countries", not some third world tin pot dictatorship.
If you're going to compare the USA with other countries, whether they're "peer countries" or not, then all countries are fair game. Only comparing the USA to some countries is cherry picking.

Look at the states with the highest violent crime stats - the top 5 all have liberal gun laws
So that would mean states like Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, and California must have the highest violent crime, after all those states all have very liberal gun laws.
And we've been over this before, its the liberals who want more gun control and the conservatives who want more gun rights so therefore liberal gun laws are laws that restrict guns.

How and in what way

What makes one harder or easier to compare than the other ?
Transportation and cable television is stuff you pulled in from left field, I don't see how it fits in with the topic at hand.

What evidence do you have of this ?
My evidence is that school teaches you to think, I speak from my own experience on that, and gun grabbers don't think, most liberals in general don't think much.

It's your claim, not mine
That was an error on my part, I accidentally posted one of your quotes as mine.

But you did exactly that with NYC
When?

What are your figures for W.Virginia ?
In 2016, the year Constitutional Carry was introduced in W.Virginia the violent crime rate was 358 per 1000 people. In 2017 the violent crime rate in W.Virginia dropped to 351.
West Virginia 2016 | National Institute of Corrections
West Virginia 2017 | National Institute of Corrections

How ?

They're the only ones with a sane argument.
Maybe by you're standards they're sane but that's only because you're obviously one of them.
 
If you're going to compare the USA with other countries, whether they're "peer countries" or not, then all countries are fair game. Only comparing the USA to some countries is cherry picking.


No, comparing the USA with similar "peer" countries is not "cherry picking"

Selecting countries with a poorer record than the USA and comparing the USA to them would be more like that.

So if you want to make the USA look good, compare the gun homicide rate of Brazil and El Salvador. If you want to get a reasonable idea of how the USA is performing, compare it to similar, developed countries or "peer countries" that international comparisons actually do
So if you want to see how the USA is doing in adult literacy, don't look to where the USA sits in a world table of 200 countries, compare the USA to similar, developed countries. Like is actually done

You don't know what "cherry picking" is


So that would mean states like Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, and California must have the highest violent crime, after all those states all have very liberal gun laws.

No, NY and NY have the most conservative gun laws in the USA
Arizona and Alaska have some of the most liberal gun laws in the USA and the highest level of violent crime

A state with few gun controls has LIBERAL gun laws

There is little state control on getting a gun in say Alaska - therefore Alaska has liberal gun laws

You need to learn what "liberal" means - it means fewer controls, less laws, less restrictions
Another example would be prostitution, it is legal in most places in Nevada. Nevada has the most liberal prostitution laws in the USA

Transportation and cable television is stuff you pulled in from left field, I don't see how it fits in with the topic at hand.

They are just two aspects you can draw comparisons between state or countries on
Like gun control or prostitution laws


My evidence is that school teaches you to think, I speak from my own experience on that...

I don't mean to be rude but it doesn't seem that your school did a very good regard in that respect
And I think you meant to say your experience and not your evidence


and gun grabbers don't think, most liberals in general don't think much.


Where is your evidence for that

Which liberals or "gun grabbers" (a poor sign of a reasoned assessment Btw to use such a slanderous term) do you know of that don't think ?

I would say that the responses to gun control arguments, from the right, are more akin to thoughtless, knee-jerk reactions
Labeling those in favor of gun control as "gun grabbers" is not a good sign of a thought process being employed.



Post #188:

...You could compare a place to itself based on the effects that take place after enacting more or less gun control.


So you were saying that we could compare a city (such as NYC) to itself from an earlier time

That may be the case, but such a comparison wouldn't be useful in examining where that places stands today when compared agaist its "peers"



In 2016, the year Constitutional Carry was introduced in W.Virginia the violent crime rate was 358 per 1000 people. In 2017 the violent crime rate in W.Virginia dropped to 351.

CCW stands for Concealed Carry not Constitutional Carry - so in 2016, W.Virginia introduced a more liberal CCW law

Where is the control group ?
What would violent crime have been without the liberalizing of its CCW laws ?

What happened in "peer states" with no change in CCW laws ?



Looks like violent crime in W.Virginia rose since 2016 and then fell - kind of matching US trends over all:


https://www.americashealthrankings.org/explore/annual/measure/Crime/state/WV


Maybe by you're standards they're sane but that's only because you're obviously one of them.


By any standards

An argument that 40,000 annual gun related deaths and 70,000+ gun related injuries and more than one mass shooting per day in 2019 is normal or bearable is not sane.
Neither is one that says the answer is more guns.

That is insanity.
 
But Mexico is not an "exact facsimile" of the USA so why would that be so ?

I wonder how many posters will agree the the USA is a peer country to Mexico - not many I'd suspect.

I would say that Mexico would be a better peer country than the UK. Mexico is a Federated Republic, similar to the United States, the people of Mexico also have the constitutional right to have arms, although highly regulated. There are more similarities between the U.S. and Mexico than between the U.S. and the UK.
 
I would say that Mexico would be a better peer country than the UK. Mexico is a Federated Republic, similar to the United States, the people of Mexico also have the constitutional right to have arms, although highly regulated. There are more similarities between the U.S. and Mexico than between the U.S. and the UK.

You think that Mexico would make a better comparison to the USA than the UK, based not on its economic development but how its government is organized ?


Hmmm...let's just say that Mexico is never listed as a peer country to the USA, by researchers and organizations that conduct international comparisons

If you Google USA, peer countries you won't ever see Mexico but you'll always see the UK in a list of countries the USA is compared to

eg:


ib339-figureA.jpg


Why do you think that is ?
 
You think that Mexico would make a better comparison to the USA than the UK, based not on its economic development but how its government is organized ?


Hmmm...let's just say that Mexico is never listed as a peer country to the USA, by researchers and organizations that conduct international comparisons

If you Google USA, peer countries you won't ever see Mexico but you'll always see the UK in a list of countries the USA is compared to

eg:


View attachment 67276943


Why do you think that is ?

Rich, that's a good question, but the U.S. has more in common with Mexico than it does the UK, so I don't understand why they must compare the U.S to the UK. The UK is a Constitutional Monarchy, the U.S. is a Constitutional Representative Republic, the two governments are not even similar. Really the only think we really have in common is the language. The U.S. has a 20 trillion dollar GDP, the UK has a 2.5 trillion GDP and Mexico has a 1.8 trillion dollar GDP. The government of Mexico almost mirrors that of the U.S., they are both Republics in nature, they both have 3 branches of government, and they both have a constitution that protects the rights of their citizens.
 
Rich, that's a good question, but the U.S. has more in common with Mexico than it does the UK...


No it doesn't - once you factor out their geographical location as both being in North America

Now you could make an argument that Canada is more similar to the USA than the UK is, but not Mexico


...so I don't understand why they must compare the U.S to the UK....

Because, as my graph explained, they're both developed economies



...the UK is a Constitutional Monarchy, the U.S. is a Constitutional Representative Republic...

So what, what has that got to do with gun control ?


...the two governments are not even similar....
[

They're both Western or if you prefer, Westernized democracies


...the U.S. has a 20 trillion dollar GDP, the UK has a 2.5 trillion GDP and Mexico has a 1.8 trillion dollar GDP. The government of Mexico almost mirrors that of the U.S., they are both Republics in nature, they both have 3 branches of government, and they both have a constitution that protects the rights of their citizens.


So what, Russia has most of that too.



How do you account for Mexico's absence and the UK's presence on all lists of USA's "peer countries" ?
 
No it doesn't - once you factor out their geographical location as both being in North America

Now you could make an argument that Canada is more similar to the USA than the UK is, but not Mexico




Because, as my graph explained, they're both developed economies





So what, what has that got to do with gun control ?


[

They're both Western or if you prefer, Westernized democracies





So what, Russia has most of that too.



How do you account for Mexico's absence and the UK's presence on all lists of USA's "peer countries" ?


How do you account for Mexico's absence and the UK's presence on all lists of USA's "peer countries" ?, like I said Rich, that's a good question, the U.S has more in common with Mexico than 80% of those countries on that list. I would guess that on the political side, the U.S and the UK are similar in the aspect in being able to apply pressure to get things done, but that is where the similarities end. The U.S. and Canada share cultural ties the same as the U.S. and Mexico, however, Mexico can be said to mirror the U.S. in most aspects of their government and I would say that there is more of a Mexican influence in the U.S. than there is a UK influence, so based on this I would say Mexico is more of a "peer" than most on that list.
 
...however, Mexico can be said to mirror the U.S. in most aspects of their government and I would say that there is more of a Mexican influence in the U.S. than there is a UK influence, so based on this I would say Mexico is more of a "peer" than most on that list.

So what

What does the form of government have to do with any comparison on anything from road traffic deaths to gun related death to literacy rates ?
Answer it doesn't

It's quite irrelevant.


The chief qualifier is economic development.
That is why the UK is on the list and Mexico isn't.
 
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