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Which is More Powerful

Rich2018 said:
A shotgun would still be the best implement to confront an intruder in my living room IMO

At close range, I don't think there's any doubt it's the most lethal weapon you can point at a bad guy.
It also doubles as a club if you decide not to shoot.
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Once again, it depends. A shotgun generally has more muzzle flash (unless you reload down the shells), and it is generally louder than most handguns. That's because a full load of powder shotshell (about 20 grns), compared to maybe 4grns of powder in a handgun shell, the shotgun will be much louder and have more muzzle flash. So with either your senses will be diminished for at least a few seconds, but with the shotgun probably measured in minutes; where seconds can count. I prefer a lighter load handgun for close in the home defense. Then you also get the advantge of less recoil, so you can stay on target better. In case you need that second shot.
 
Waddy said:
Once again, it depends. A shotgun generally has more muzzle flash (unless you reload down the shells), and it is generally louder than most handguns. That's because a full load of powder shotshell (about 20 grns), compared to maybe 4grns of powder in a handgun shell, the shotgun will be much louder and have more muzzle flash. So with either your senses will be diminished for at least a few seconds, but with the shotgun probably measured in minutes; where seconds can count. I prefer a lighter load handgun for close in the home defense. Then you also get the advantge of less recoil, so you can stay on target better. In case you need that second shot.
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I think I'd consider hearing protection as essential to home defense.
I'm not sure muzzle flash is an issue, I've not heard that it is

I've heard that a 20 gauge shotgun can fire a round that's twice as powerful as a 44 Magnum.


YouTube


Counter 4:38
 
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Rich2018 said:
I think I'd consider hearing protection as essential to home defense.
I'm not sure muzzle flash is an issue, I've not heard that it is

I've heard that a 20 gauge shotgun can fire a round that's twice as powerful as a 44 Magnum.


YouTube


Counter 4:38
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Yes, you have.
 
Waddy said:
...then you also get the advantage of less recoil, so you can stay on target better. In case you need that second shot.
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I'm not sure that the recoil in a shotgun has less of an issue with recoil than a handgun either

In the army, I could regain a sight picture a lot quicker with the 5.56mm rifle than I could with the service hand gun (FN Browning Hi Power).
 
Rich2018 said:
I think I'd consider hearing protection as essential to home defense.
I'm not sure muzzle flash is an issue, I've not heard that it is

I've heard that a 20 gauge shotgun can fire a round that's twice as powerful as a 44 Magnum.


YouTube


Counter 4:38
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Haven't shot much at night, have you?
 
Rich2018 said:
I'm not sure that the recoil in a shotgun has less of an issue with recoil than a handgun either

In the army, I could regain a sight picture a lot quicker with the 5.56mm rifle than I could with the service hand gun (FN Browning Hi Power).
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Well, you had a lot of muzzle flip with that high velocity 9mm Hi-Power. And the military doesn't load down. BTW; The 5.56 has almost NO recoil. A kid could keep that little bullet on target.

You were probably shooting a 124gr bullet out of that 9mm at around 1400fps. The handgun is fairly light. Hence, you get muzzle flip.

The 5.56 probably was still using 55gr bullets back in your day. A 7 lb rifle. A toddler could handle that recoil.
 
A shotgun would be a poor choice for many. First of all, it has much more recoil. For small people, women and especially those who are not familiar with a shotgun the recoil can be debilitating or slow your ability to reload and act if necessary. Most shotguns are large, heavy and cumbersome. Wielding one in a confined area will be difficult. They are not for suited for many people. In addition, they have the lowest muzzle velocity. This is a factor if your target is moving. The advantage of the so called spread effect is minimized at close range like one would experience in a home.
 
Waddy said:
Well, you had a lot of muzzle flip with that high velocity 9mm Hi-Power. And the military doesn't load down. BTW; The 5.56 has almost NO recoil. A kid could keep that little bullet on target.

You were probably shooting a 124gr bullet out of that 9mm at around 1400fps. The handgun is fairly light. Hence, you get muzzle flip.

The 5.56 probably was still using 55gr bullets back in your day. A 7 lb rifle. A toddler could handle that recoil.
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The Browning High Power was pretty heavy, at least I always felt so. Much harder to shoot accurately (we used a 25 meter range)

The SA-80 was nearer 9 lb believe it or not with a fully loaded magazine and no, it had very little recoil, whereas the Hi Power seemed to jump every time you fired it.
As a military weapon, it sucks.
 
Rich2018 said:
Not much no.

Have you ?

Strange how that video didn't mention muzzle flash. Can you prove that it would be an issue ?
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I've done my share of night firing. Go shoot your favorite big bore gun in the dark and report back. You won't be able to see you keyboard for a couple of minutes.
 
BahamaBob said:
A shotgun would be a poor choice for many. First of all, it has much more recoil. For small people, women and especially those who are not familiar with a shotgun the recoil can be debilitating...
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Then would a 20 gauge shotgun be better for them ?


Most shotguns are large, heavy and cumbersome. Wielding one in a confined area will be difficult....
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Are you familiar with the technique known as "short stocking" ?


And in the video I pasted, the presenter shows that the space needed to aim a handgun and a shotgun are roughly the same


In addition, they have the lowest muzzle velocity. This is a factor if your target is moving.
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Not really, shotguns are designed to hit moving targets, they put shot down range and it spreads out


The advantage of the so called spread effect is minimized at close range like one would experience in a home.
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True but you're far more likely to hit with a shotgun than a hand gun.
 
Rich2018 said:
The Browning High Power was pretty heavy, at least I always felt so. Much harder to shoot accurately (we used a 25 meter range)

The SA-80 was nearer 9 lb believe it or not with a fully loaded magazine and no, it had very little recoil, whereas the Hi Power seemed to jump every time you fired it.
As a military weapon, it sucks.
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The 9mm is fine once you master it, like any caliber. The Browning isn't particularly heavy. That "jump" you describe is called muzzle flip.
 
Waddy said:
I've done my share of night firing. Go shoot your favorite big bore gun in the dark and report back. You won't be able to see you keyboard for a couple of minutes.
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I've fired a 5.56mm assault rifle with night sights, on a range and can't really remember flash being an issue.


I've fired pistols (.357 S&W and Glock 19) at an indoor range and again don't remember muzzle flash being a problem.
 
Waddy said:
The 9mm is fine once you master it, like any caliber. The Browning isn't particularly heavy. That "jump" you describe is called muzzle flip.
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The muzzle flip as you call it is very hard to control...much harder than even a 7.62mm rifle like the FN-FAL.
 
Rich2018 said:
Then would a 20 gauge shotgun be better for them ?




Are you familiar with the technique known as "short stocking" ?


And in the video I pasted, the presenter shows that the space needed to aim a handgun and a shotgun are roughly the same





Not really, shotguns are designed to hit moving targets, they put shot down range and it spreads out




True but you're far more likely to hit with a shotgun than a hand gun.
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Your ignorance on weapons is showing. Here is what shotgunworld says.
"If the shells are the same and the 20 gauge weighs less, it recoils more. This is why OFTEN 20-gauges recoil worse than 12-gauges, because of the lighter gun, even with lighter payloads".

A short stock or pistol grip stock makes the recoil worse. It puts all the pressure on the wrist. It could easily break the wrist of a woman.

No one with any real experience would try to tell anyone that you can wield a shotgun as fast as a handgun.

Shotguns are designed to hit moving targets at range. At 30 or 40 yards the pattern spreads at close range not so. Do you have 30 yards in your family room?

More likely to hit with a shotgun. Depends on the situation and the user. In the dark, I will take a handgun anytime. A handgun is an extension of your hand, you point and shoot. A shotgun or rifle needs to be aimed. My 9 mil has a 17 shot clip and a laser sight. I can miss 16 times and I am still in the game. I can also change a clip in 2 seconds. I see you favor a 3 shot max on your shotguns. What happens after shot 3?
 
Rich2018 said:
And the solution is to make America a more violent place by spreading yet more guns.

Like a fireman fighting a fire with gasoline.
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actually that can happen. Forest fire fighters sometimes create a burn zone to stop a fire from spreading. whether they currently use gas or other incendiary material, I don't know but I am certain gas has been used in some gases.
 
BahamaBob said:
Your ignorance on weapons is showing. Here is what shotgunworld says.
"If the shells are the same and the 20 gauge weighs less, it recoils more. This is why OFTEN 20-gauges recoil worse than 12-gauges, because of the lighter gun, even with lighter payloads".

A short stock or pistol grip stock makes the recoil worse. It puts all the pressure on the wrist. It could easily break the wrist of a woman.

No one with any real experience would try to tell anyone that you can wield a shotgun as fast as a handgun.

Shotguns are designed to hit moving targets at range. At 30 or 40 yards the pattern spreads at close range not so. Do you have 30 yards in your family room?

More likely to hit with a shotgun. Depends on the situation and the user. In the dark, I will take a handgun anytime. A handgun is an extension of your hand, you point and shoot. A shotgun or rifle needs to be aimed. My 9 mil has a 17 shot clip and a laser sight. I can miss 16 times and I am still in the game. I can also change a clip in 2 seconds. I see you favor a 3 shot max on your shotguns. What happens after shot 3?
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the most versatile home defense weapon for most people is an AR 15 with the proper ammunition. Most modern AR 15s have adjustable stocks-meaning my 5-4 wife, my 5-9 son and I at 6-1 can all use that carbine easily and adjust it to fit in less than 3 seconds. hits are easier with the AR 15 than a pistol with much better stopping power in most cases. Some pistols have wonderful stopping power but often have recoil that retard follow up shots for most users. Now the stopping power of a 12 or 20G shotgun is pretty well established. I have a shotgun as one of my main home defense weapons. But it is the hardest of the three weapons types to use for searching a house or moving through a house to secure a child or ailing or disabled adult family member.
 
Rich2018 said:
I've fired a 5.56mm assault rifle with night sights, on a range and can't really remember flash being an issue.


I've fired pistols (.357 S&W and Glock 19) at an indoor range and again don't remember muzzle flash being a problem.
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That do-hicky on the end of the barrel on that "assault" rifle is called a flash suppressor.

For you muzzle flash might not be a problem. For us mere humans with eyes that can dilate, it often is a problem.

Are you sure you are a pro-gun person? NO-ONE I know who owns any number of guns calls the AR15 or any other semi-automatic rifle an "assault weapon". That's a term the anti-gun crowd thought up. Hmmmmmmmmm...............
 
Waddy said:
That do-hicky on the end of the barrel on that "assault" rifle is called a flash suppressor.

For you muzzle flash might not be a problem. For us mere humans with eyes that can dilate, it often is a problem.

Are you sure you are a pro-gun person? NO-ONE I know who owns any number of guns calls the AR15 or any other semi-automatic rifle an "assault weapon". That's a term the anti-gun crowd thought up. Hmmmmmmmmm...............
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Rich is on record as advocating repeal of the Second and enforcing a total ban of guns, allowing some small exceptions that he isn't real clear about. He does enjoy youtube videos about guns though.
 
RF667799 said:
Rich is on record as advocating repeal of the Second and enforcing a total ban of guns, allowing some small exceptions that he isn't real clear about. He does enjoy youtube videos about guns though.
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Which is why I wonder if he is really as dedicated to his anti-gun rhetoric as he portrays here.
 
Casper said:
Which is why I wonder if he is really as dedicated to his anti-gun rhetoric as he portrays here.
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Most people would fear a psychopathic killer yet slasher movies always maintain a certain level of popularity. People slow down to get a better look at a car wreck. Even anti-gunners attend mainstream Hollywood productions where the gunshot death toll runs into the hundreds. My daughter has a shark phobia but loves shark attack movies.
People can be attracted to what they hate and fear so long as it is at what they perceive as a safe distance.
 
RF667799 said:
Most people would fear a psychopathic killer yet slasher movies always maintain a certain level of popularity. People slow down to get a better look at a car wreck. Even anti-gunners attend mainstream Hollywood productions where the gunshot death toll runs into the hundreds. My daughter has a shark phobia but loves shark attack movies.
People can be attracted to what they hate and fear so long as it is at what they perceive as a safe distance.
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Sounds right except he claims to own and shoot them, so the distance things does not seem to apply here. Maybe Poe is more applicable.
 
Casper said:
Sounds right except he claims to own and shoot them, so the distance things does not seem to apply here. Maybe Poe is more applicable.
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No his claimed experience is from his claimed time in the British Army.
 
BahamaBob said:
Your ignorance on weapons is showing....
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And your ignorance on guns is showing more....read on


Here is what shotgunworld says.
"If the shells are the same and the 20 gauge weighs less, it recoils more. This is why OFTEN 20-gauges recoil worse than 12-gauges, because of the lighter gun, even with lighter payloads".
Click to expand...


YouTube


Counter 4:37


"Anyone who can shoot a 12 gauge can shoot a 20 gauge better..."

A smaller stature person was recommended to get a Remington 20 gauge youth model. But what does this guy know...your experience and training classes probably teach something more in line with your experience.


Your ignorance on guns is really showing


A short stock or pistol grip stock makes the recoil worse. It puts all the pressure on the wrist. It could easily break the wrist of a woman....
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Such a sexist and bigoted thing to say
You've never heard of "short stocking" then ?

YouTube



No one with any real experience would try to tell anyone that you can wield a shotgun as fast as a handgun.
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See the first and second videos. Using a shotgun takes about the same amount of space


Shotguns are designed to hit moving targets at range. At 30 or 40 yards the pattern spreads at close range not so. Do you have 30 yards in your family room?
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Of course you can miss with a shotgun, that's one of the myths that James Jaeger exposes. But if the target is say 3-4''' away, the spread of shot would be about 3-4", so yes, you do have a much better chance of a hit with a shotgun.

Your ignorance of guns, especially shotguns, is really showing now.



More likely to hit with a shotgun. Depends on the situation and the user. In the dark, I will take a handgun anytime....
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That would be your choice, use a pistol if you don't feel comfortable with anything else


A handgun is an extension of your hand, you point and shoot. A shotgun or rifle needs to be aimed.
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LOL


It sounds like you've never fired a hand gun, you've certainly never aimed one or been in a situation where to destination of the bullet mattered



My 9 mil has a 17 shot clip and a laser sight. I can miss 16 times and I am still in the game. I can also change a clip in 2 seconds.
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It sounds like you would have to fire that many unaimed shots to get a hit...like pinning the tail on a donkey



I see you favor a 3 shot max on your shotguns. What happens after shot 3?
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If my preferred gun laws were in force, I'd re-load. You might need 17 shots...

What happens if 18 Ninjas attack your house ?
 
TurtleDude said:
actually that can happen. Forest fire fighters sometimes create a burn zone to stop a fire from spreading. whether they currently use gas or other incendiary material, I don't know but I am certain gas has been used in some gases.
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True, I've heard of that

I've also heard gun owners claim their life (or the lives of others) was saved by defensive gun use.


Though I suspect you knew I was talking about substituting water for gasoline to pour ON a fire.
 
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