• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

"Countries With Stricter Gun Laws Have Less Murders"

DebateChallenge

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 30, 2017
Messages
12,099
Reaction score
3,439
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Perhaps the most favorite game that the gun control crowd loves to play is to point out how countries with stricter gun laws have less murders. Countries such as the U.K. and Australia and Japan, all of which have very strict gun control, all have lower murder rates than a country such as the U.S.A. which is much more gun friendly. Making such claims is all fine and dandy if you want to cherry pick but just because a country has stricter gun laws doesn't mean it has a lower murder rate and just because a country is more gun friendly doesn't mean it has a higher murder rate.

Take for instance the country of South Africa. In South Africa they've got much stricter gun control than in the USA and they've also got a much higher murder rate. The murder rate in the USA is roughly 5.3 per 100,000 people whereas in South Africa its roughly 35.9 per 100,000 people. So in the country of South Africa with their much stricter gun laws they've got a murder rate that's close to 7 times higher than that of the much more gun friendly USA. So there you have it, stricter gun control does not mean less murders and if you point out countries such as the U.K. and Australia and Japan you're doing nothing but cherry picking and that's all there is to it.
 
The murder rate in the USA is roughly 5.3 per 100,000 people

It's also important to note that gun violence in the US is very concentrated. A big portion of the US murder rate is Democrats killing each other in inner city neighborhoods. Leave them out and the US is an extremely safe country.
 
Perhaps the most favorite game that the gun control crowd loves to play is to point out how countries with stricter gun laws have less murders. Countries such as the U.K. and Australia and Japan, all of which have very strict gun control, all have lower murder rates than a country such as the U.S.A. which is much more gun friendly. Making such claims is all fine and dandy if you want to cherry pick but just because a country has stricter gun laws doesn't mean it has a lower murder rate and just because a country is more gun friendly doesn't mean it has a higher murder rate.

Take for instance the country of South Africa. In South Africa they've got much stricter gun control than in the USA and they've also got a much higher murder rate. The murder rate in the USA is roughly 5.3 per 100,000 people whereas in South Africa its roughly 35.9 per 100,000 people. So in the country of South Africa with their much stricter gun laws they've got a murder rate that's close to 7 times higher than that of the much more gun friendly USA. So there you have it, stricter gun control does not mean less murders and if you point out countries such as the U.K. and Australia and Japan you're doing nothing but cherry picking and that's all there is to it.

Having strict laws does not mean much if they lack rigorous enforcement. For example, the US has strict recreational drug laws (a complete nationwide ban which has been in effect for decades), but due to lack of rigorous enforcement (especially on the demand side) it has loads of drug-related deaths and crime.
 
It's also important to note that gun violence in the US is very concentrated. A big portion of the US murder rate is Democrats killing each other in inner city neighborhoods. Leave them out and the US is an extremely safe country.

Yep, that's why the focus is often shifted (limited?) to "mass shootings" where the perps and victims are more "politically correct".
 
And Brazil, they have gun control laws and a murder rate out of control.

Now compare the USA with a Western Country similar to the USA, not South Africa.
 
Perhaps the most favorite game that the gun control crowd loves to play is to point out how countries with stricter gun laws have less murders. Countries such as the U.K. and Australia and Japan, all of which have very strict gun control, all have lower murder rates than a country such as the U.S.A. which is much more gun friendly. Making such claims is all fine and dandy if you want to cherry pick but just because a country has stricter gun laws doesn't mean it has a lower murder rate and just because a country is more gun friendly doesn't mean it has a higher murder rate.

Take for instance the country of South Africa. In South Africa they've got much stricter gun control than in the USA and they've also got a much higher murder rate. The murder rate in the USA is roughly 5.3 per 100,000 people whereas in South Africa its roughly 35.9 per 100,000 people. So in the country of South Africa with their much stricter gun laws they've got a murder rate that's close to 7 times higher than that of the much more gun friendly USA. So there you have it, stricter gun control does not mean less murders and if you point out countries such as the U.K. and Australia and Japan you're doing nothing but cherry picking and that's all there is to it.

Gun control does not live in a vacuum. It is one of many factors that influences murder rates and violence.

The main factors that drive crime, murder and violence is poverty, income inequality and racism. Guns help to make those problems way worse. Banning guns goes a long way to lessen the impact, but as long as you dont combat poverty, income inequality and racism, then well you aint gonna get much done.
 
And Brazil, they have gun control laws and a murder rate out of control.

Now compare the USA with a Western Country similar to the USA, not South Africa.

People are people, you don't get to cherry pick countries in order to reach the conclusion you want.
 
Perhaps the most favorite game that the gun control crowd loves to play is to point out how countries with stricter gun laws have less murders. Countries such as the U.K. and Australia and Japan, all of which have very strict gun control, all have lower murder rates than a country such as the U.S.A. which is much more gun friendly. Making such claims is all fine and dandy if you want to cherry pick but just because a country has stricter gun laws doesn't mean it has a lower murder rate and just because a country is more gun friendly doesn't mean it has a higher murder rate.

Take for instance the country of South Africa. In South Africa they've got much stricter gun control than in the USA and they've also got a much higher murder rate. The murder rate in the USA is roughly 5.3 per 100,000 people whereas in South Africa its roughly 35.9 per 100,000 people. So in the country of South Africa with their much stricter gun laws they've got a murder rate that's close to 7 times higher than that of the much more gun friendly USA. So there you have it, stricter gun control does not mean less murders and if you point out countries such as the U.K. and Australia and Japan you're doing nothing but cherry picking and that's all there is to it.
So you allege that people cherry-pick, and then you... cherry-pick? Nice.

South Africa has a high crime rate not because of gun laws, but because their law enforcement is a basket case. The police spent decades upholding apartheid, beating blacks and arresting political activists, not stopping crimes. Apartheid also shattered trust in government and law enforcement, and encouraged vigilantism on all sides. (Anti-immigrant sentiment is also manifesting as violence, by the way.) It's taken years to retrain the police (a difficult task even in the best of times), and for people to care about the rule of law. Even so, enforcement of gun laws is surely weak compared to many other nations.

One result of this is that murder rates shot up for years, and only started to fall when Apartheid started to collapse in the early 90s:

Crime-Stats-South-Africa.png



We should also note that gun control activists never say that "gun ownership is the only factor in homicide rates." So you're not only cherry-picking, you're also using a straw man argument. Real nice.

Meanwhile, it isn't hard to find dozens of nations with decent gun control laws -- and perhaps more importantly, a culture less fanatical about guns than the US -- that have lower homicide rates, correlated with lower gun ownership rates. After all, there are around 140 nations with lower homicide rates than the US....
 
People are people, you don't get to cherry pick countries in order to reach the conclusion you want.

Yes you do.

When discussing laws concerning social control - you absolutely judge yourselves with other countries similar to you.


For instance, when debating a new medicare act, you don't look to see what works well in Somalia


Most stupid comment of the day.
 
It's also important to note that gun violence in the US is very concentrated. A big portion of the US murder rate is Democrats killing each other in inner city neighborhoods. Leave them out and the US is an extremely safe country.

I would say the biggest portion of gun murders is concentrated in gangs and gang wars.
 
Meanwhile, it isn't hard to find dozens of nations with decent gun control laws -- and perhaps more importantly, a culture less fanatical about guns than the US -- that have lower homicide rates,

The gun culture you speak of exists in areas of the US where violent crime is very low. Again, the highest murder rates occur where Democrats are shooting at each other out in broad daylight in inner cities. Gun culture denotes people who love guns, not people who love violence.
 
Gun control does not live in a vacuum. It is one of many factors that influences murder rates and violence.

The main factors that drive crime, murder and violence is poverty, income inequality and racism. Guns help to make those problems way worse. Banning guns goes a long way to lessen the impact, but as long as you dont combat poverty, income inequality and racism, then well you aint gonna get much done.
So then the answer is to combat poverty, income inequality, and racism, not taking away gun rights.
 
Perhaps the most favorite game that the gun control crowd loves to play is to point out how countries with stricter gun laws have less murders. Countries such as the U.K. and Australia and Japan, all of which have very strict gun control, all have lower murder rates than a country such as the U.S.A. which is much more gun friendly. Making such claims is all fine and dandy if you want to cherry pick but just because a country has stricter gun laws doesn't mean it has a lower murder rate and just because a country is more gun friendly doesn't mean it has a higher murder rate.

Take for instance the country of South Africa. In South Africa they've got much stricter gun control than in the USA and they've also got a much higher murder rate. The murder rate in the USA is roughly 5.3 per 100,000 people whereas in South Africa its roughly 35.9 per 100,000 people. So in the country of South Africa with their much stricter gun laws they've got a murder rate that's close to 7 times higher than that of the much more gun friendly USA. So there you have it, stricter gun control does not mean less murders and if you point out countries such as the U.K. and Australia and Japan you're doing nothing but cherry picking and that's all there is to it.
So move to one. This is the oldest BS argument on the book. We have drug and obesity epidemics, more gangsters and drug dealers than most of those countries have population. - just to mention a few factors.
 
And Brazil, they have gun control laws and a murder rate out of control.

Now compare the USA with a Western Country similar to the USA, not South Africa.
Why should I compare the USA to another western country? The gun banning crowd is always comparing the USA to countries such as the UK, Australia, and Japan and they're not western countries.
 
So move to one. This is the oldest BS argument on the book. We have drug and obesity epidemics, more gangsters and drug dealers than most of those countries have population. - just to mention a few factors.
So then the problem is gangsters and drug dealers not guns.
 
"Countries With Stricter Gun Laws Have Less Murders" is not cherry picking.

Figure the numbers. It's true.
 
So then the problem is gangsters and drug dealers not guns.
Well, you're getting closer. Think gangsters and drug dealers WITH guns; now think that those gangsters and drug dealers don't buy their guns at Walmart or Joe's Gun Shop. They won't turn in their "assault weapons" or "high capacity magazines". But they WILL continue to account for a huge majority of the gun assaults and deaths.
 
Well, you're getting closer. Think gangsters and drug dealers WITH guns; now think that those gangsters and drug dealers don't buy their guns at Walmart or Joe's Gun Shop. They won't turn in their "assault weapons" or "high capacity magazines". But they WILL continue to account for a huge majority of the gun assaults and deaths.

They wouldn't get their guns from Walmart or Joe's Gun Shop, they would get them from illegal sources.
 
And Brazil, they have gun control laws and a murder rate out of control.

Now compare the USA with a Western Country similar to the USA, not South Africa.

What "Western Country" is similar to the USA in any relevant respect?
 
It's also important to note that gun violence in the US is very concentrated. A big portion of the US murder rate is Democrats killing each other in inner city neighborhoods. Leave them out and the US is an extremely safe country.

I had this conversation with a democrat friend today. He was at one time a believer in stop and frisk and over time came around to the current belief that it is discriminatory and at least looks racist. His original belief was based on the idea that you put more cops where there is more crime and you become more pro-active in your policing to keep guns out of the public spectrum. So I said it seems like a reasonable, common sense approach to keeping people living in these neighborhoods safe from gun violence. Of course he said it doesn't work and it's not fair. I was ok with it because it dramatically reduced gun deaths in NY, from over 2000 to less than 300. Good thing right?
Well, we couldn't agree so I asked, "what is your alternative to reducing gun crime in those situations if you are not going to up the police presence and be pro-active. You know what? He didn't have a solution. I guess just good faith.
 
So then the answer is to combat poverty, income inequality, and racism, not taking away gun rights.
None of which makes a lick of difference to gun violence.
 
Having strict laws does not mean much if they lack rigorous enforcement. For example, the US has strict recreational drug laws (a complete nationwide ban which has been in effect for decades), but due to lack of rigorous enforcement (especially on the demand side) it has loads of drug-related deaths and crime.

South Africa's gun ownership per capita in 9.26 per 100 people. In The United States it's 120 per 100 people.

SA has 36 murders per 100,000 people. The U.S. has 5 per 100,000.

Those numbers destroy the argument that more guns mean more murders.
 
Back
Top Bottom