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Why compromise is stupid

RF667799 said:
Any non-functional rifles in that maintenance unit were probably due to those rifles not being maintained, ironically enough.
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Of course

And in a maintenance company of professional soldiers, not some conscript or uneducated hills tribesman.

And the M-16 was too difficult for an entire company of professional soldiers to maintain so it functioned. Not one soldier had a functioning weapon and you think there's not an issue with it, or are you saying American soldiers are so poor ?


You'd think that when in "bandit country" even the most stupid REMF would see the need to have his/her gun functional - and we saw an entire company without a functional gun between them.
 
RF667799 said:
Any non-functional rifles in that maintenance unit were probably due to those rifles not being maintained, ironically enough.
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Poor maintenance is the usual culprit of m16 failure, they are gas fed therefor require regular cleaning to prevent from being jammed by carbon buildup, and in desert environments they need to be very lightly oiled, a common mistake I had seen was the spray bottle of clp used to lubricate the internals, but both sand and carbon stick to oil, therefore using proper amounts of oil was key, but usually the failure was them not cleaning them at all and just spraying clp down the barrel until they ended up so crudded they would not function.
 
Rich2018 said:
Of course

And in a maintenance company of professional soldiers, not some conscript or uneducated hills tribesman.

And the M-16 was too difficult for an entire company of professional soldiers to maintain so it functioned. Not one soldier had a functioning weapon and you think there's not an issue with it, or are you saying American soldiers are so poor ?


You'd think that when in "bandit country" even the most stupid REMF would see the need to have his/her gun functional - and we saw an entire company without a functional gun between them.
Click to expand...

It is common in the military to perform poor cleaning, I myself practiced it and was taught to soak the parts in clp after the cleaning was done then wipe it down with a rag to only leave a light film to prevent sand dust and carbon from clumping up on it. But to say the least I dealt with enough details cleaning armory weapons turned in in haste to realize many soldiers will not clean their rifles unless forced to, and in haste often when xyz mission dictates there was not enough time to inspect every rifle for proper cleaning before turn in, which is where the details ended up being selected which was to clean the jacked up rifles after turn in.

Worst cleanup was before a comet inspection, found an entire rack one of the arms room personel accepted that were filthy like they had fired thousands of rounds without cleaning, I ended up having to soak them in wd-40 against the armies clp standard to break parts free they were so jammed with carbon. Myself I prefer to have guns functioning for when I need them which is always a life or death situation if you need your rifle to function in the army. In afghanistan I unloaded mags once a month and reloaded them to ensure they had full spring tension, and cleaned the rifle at minimum weekly even if not ever fired to ensure proper function, as well as performing the very simple functions check.
 
aociswundumho said:
So you compromise and give in, and more "common sense" gun control laws are passed. Afterwards:

If gun violence goes up or remains the same, that's evidence that still more gun control laws are needed.

If gun violence goes down, that's evidence that gun control works - hence more gun control laws are needed to reduce gun violence further.

Compromising on gun rights is foolish. Give a filthy leftist an inch, and he'll take a mile and a half every time.
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When there's true compromise both sides gain something, both sides give something up.

Simply passing more restrictive gun laws is not compromise, its giving the gun control crowd what they want.

For there to be compromise you would also have to give the gun rights crowd stuff they want.

For instance, when the bump stock ban was passed if they also passed national reciprocity along with it that would be compromise.
 
Praxas said:
However, I don't think ALL fireworks should be banned. In Nevada where I live at all fireworks are banned, including ground based fireworks like fountains.
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Are you sure you meant to say Nevada and not New Jersey? What you just talked about sounds much more like New Jersey.

Sometimes I go to Front Sight in Nevada on the 4th of July, they set off a ton of fireworks.
 
Rich2018 said:
In the USA a mass shooting at over one per days seems easily bearable to the gun owning lobby. In fact I don't think any level of mass shootings will change their mind
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No it won't, deal with it.
 
jamesrage said:
TI know the excuse they used. One or two mass shootings and idiots let their governments disarm over something that almost never happened.
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That's their problem. Its a good thing that will never happen here in the good old USA.
 
TurtleDude said:
if people like you outbreed people who support freedom, who knows what will happen. Personally, I think we will have a civil war on firearms and when it is over, the anti gun movement will no longer exist
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The enemy always has been here and always will be here.
 
Rich2018 said:
Of course

And in a maintenance company of professional soldiers, not some conscript or uneducated hills tribesman.

And the M-16 was too difficult for an entire company of professional soldiers to maintain so it functioned. Not one soldier had a functioning weapon and you think there's not an issue with it, or are you saying American soldiers are so poor ?


You'd think that when in "bandit country" even the most stupid REMF would see the need to have his/her gun functional - and we saw an entire company without a functional gun between them.
Click to expand...

Do you have something to back up that claim that not one soldier in that company had a functioning weapon?
 
DebateChallenge said:
Are you sure you meant to say Nevada and not New Jersey? What you just talked about sounds much more like New Jersey.

Sometimes I go to Front Sight in Nevada on the 4th of July, they set off a ton of fireworks.
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No I meant Nevada and I was talking about setting off fireworks myself not going to a show.
 
Praxas said:
No I meant Nevada and I was talking about setting off fireworks myself not going to a show.
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Well if what you say is true Nevada is much like New Jersey in terms of fireworks but that's where the similarities end. In Nevada you can open carry, you can drink alcohol openly in some places such as Las Vegas although I wouldn't recommend carrying if you're drinking, And Dennis Hof, the owner of several legal brothels in the state, was going to be a senator I believe before he passed away so now some other Republican is serving in his place.
 
RF667799 said:
Do you have something to back up that claim that not one soldier in that company had a functioning weapon?
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“Most of the soldiers in this group report that they experienced weapons malfunctions,” the Army says


Army Describes What Went Wrong for Jessica Lynch'''s Unit - Los Angeles Times


I read a story at the time, though it's 17 years ago that every M-16 in the company jammed.
The report was by a man who was a vehement critic of the M-16 - he reported that not one member of the company finished the firefight with a functioning weapon.
 
beerftw said:
It is common in the military to perform poor cleaning, I myself practiced it and was taught to soak the parts in clp after the cleaning was done then wipe it down with a rag to only leave a light film to prevent sand dust and carbon from clumping up on it....
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May be in the US army, but not so in the British army where weapon maintenance is close to an obsession.
I was just a REMF myself but our weapons had to be clean.

On exercise I suppose a small group could get lazy but a whole company in a war zone ?


...many soldiers will not clean their rifles unless forced to...
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I guess that's true, cleaning weapons is boring. That's where leadership comes in. If leadership doesn't do their job, next you have poor weapon handling and NDs


...and in haste often when xyz mission dictates there was not enough time to inspect every rifle for proper cleaning before turn in...
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That excuse wouldn't fly in the British army. Before turning a weapon in back to the armory, it is inspected.
The officer or sergeant makes time.

If the incident where Pte Lynch was captured was in the British army, there would be hell to pay and a few demotions to boot.

Worst cleanup was before a comet inspection, found an entire rack one of the arms room personel accepted that were filthy like they had fired thousands of rounds without cleaning...
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OMG that's incredible, was no-one charged over that ?

No-one disciplined at all ?
 
Rich2018 said:
“Most of the soldiers in this group report that they experienced weapons malfunctions,” the Army says


Army Describes What Went Wrong for Jessica Lynch'''s Unit - Los Angeles Times


I read a story at the time, though it's 17 years ago that every M-16 in the company jammed.
The report was by a man who was a vehement critic of the M-16 - he reported that not one member of the company finished the firefight with a functioning weapon.
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So what you have doesn't back up your claim.
 
Rich2018 said:
Yes it does.

Which part of "not one member of the company finished the firefight with a functioning weapon" do you not understand ?
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Here was your original claim: Remember Pte Jessica Lynch who was captured in Iraq in 2003, didn't her maintenance company have M-16's and not one was functional when they got ambushed ?

So you went from 100% non-functional when ambushed to 100% non-functional at the conclusion of the fight. That's called a goalpost move. Not only that, but your only evidence is something you claimed to have read 17 years ago.
The link you posted doesn't support either your initial claim or the claim where you toted the goalpost.
 
RF667799 said:
Here was your original claim: Remember Pte Jessica Lynch who was captured in Iraq in 2003, didn't her maintenance company have M-16's and not one was functional when they got ambushed ?

So you went from 100% non-functional when ambushed to 100% non-functional at the conclusion of the fight. That's called a goalpost move. Not only that, but your only evidence is something you claimed to have read 17 years ago.
The link you posted doesn't support either your initial claim or the claim where you toted the goalpost.
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The conclusion of the fight was part of the ambush.

I didn't say "at the initiation of hostile action". The ambush WAS the firefight.


You fail again.
 
Rich2018 said:
The conclusion of the fight was part of the ambush.

I didn't say "at the initiation of hostile action". The ambush WAS the firefight.


You fail again.
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"Not one was functional when they got ambushed" has a different meaning than "Not one was functional when they finished the fight."

Besides, you have no support for either statement.
 
beerftw said:
It is common in the military to perform poor cleaning, I myself practiced it and was taught to soak the parts in clp after the cleaning was done then wipe it down with a rag to only leave a light film to prevent sand dust and carbon from clumping up on it. But to say the least I dealt with enough details cleaning armory weapons turned in in haste to realize many soldiers will not clean their rifles unless forced to, and in haste often when xyz mission dictates there was not enough time to inspect every rifle for proper cleaning before turn in, which is where the details ended up being selected which was to clean the jacked up rifles after turn in.

Worst cleanup was before a comet inspection, found an entire rack one of the arms room personel accepted that were filthy like they had fired thousands of rounds without cleaning, I ended up having to soak them in wd-40 against the armies clp standard to break parts free they were so jammed with carbon. Myself I prefer to have guns functioning for when I need them which is always a life or death situation if you need your rifle to function in the army. In afghanistan I unloaded mags once a month and reloaded them to ensure they had full spring tension, and cleaned the rifle at minimum weekly even if not ever fired to ensure proper function, as well as performing the very simple functions check.
Click to expand...

On the flip side we maintained our firearms in garrison and in the field (Somalia).

Mandatory rifle cleanings for three days after and range detail and weekly inspections in the field.

Being on the air side we had a "secret weapon". A vendor got us TW25B.

A semi-dry lubricant. Sand would not stick to it in the field. It wouldn't evaporate as did other lubes.
 
RF667799 said:
"Not one was functional when they got ambushed" has a different meaning than "Not one was functional when they finished the fight."

Besides, you have no support for either statement.
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No it doesn't

An ambush is a firefight

The fight is over when one side stops fighting because they're: all dead/incapacitated, departed, or they surrender.
By the end of the firefight (the ambush), that maintenance company had non-functioning guns. The US Army says most guns were non-functional, the source I read at the time said not one soldier had a functioning weapon.

Here's another (unofficial) report:

"Buried deep within the latest news report on the deadly ambush of the 507th Transportation Maintenance Co. in Iraq on March 23, 2003, was a chilling nugget of information. It now appears that the soldiers who were killed or taken prisoner in that now-infamous firefight shared a common misfortune.

Their rifles had all jammed...."


Wrong Lubricant, Jammed Weapons, Dead Soldiers


Contrary to army reports, Pte Lych did not fire any shots, because her gun had jammed.


Learn to lose gracefully.
 
Rich2018 said:
No it doesn't

An ambush is a firefight

The fight is over when one side stops fighting because they're: all dead/incapacitated, departed, or they surrender.
By the end of the firefight (the ambush), that maintenance company had non-functioning guns. The US Army says most guns were non-functional, the source I read at the time said not one soldier had a functioning weapon.

Here's another (unofficial) report:

"Buried deep within the latest news report on the deadly ambush of the 507th Transportation Maintenance Co. in Iraq on March 23, 2003, was a chilling nugget of information. It now appears that the soldiers who were killed or taken prisoner in that now-infamous firefight shared a common misfortune.

Their rifles had all jammed...."


Wrong Lubricant, Jammed Weapons, Dead Soldiers


Contrary to army reports, Pte Lych did not fire any shots, because her gun had jammed.


Learn to lose gracefully.
Click to expand...

Quoting a blog....

Hmmmmm
 
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