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Training as Gun Control act

FinnFox

DP Veteran
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Apr 27, 2019
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Location
Finland
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Progressive
Is there any reason to despise training when it comes to guns?



I'm pretty sure that with extensive training program you can reduce some gun violence, but it's working only when training is mandatory (so you need training to own/use gun, it can be similar to driving licence).

So I'm interested in possible reasoning why training would be bad idea. There should be one as most of gun owners - if I'm right - are without proper training. So.. argument against training is alive as there isn't need to organize training for gun owners (and make it mandatory). I like to know that argument and then we can throw this whole idea about training to trashcan. As people are better off without training and things can keep going like they are just now.
 
Is there any reason to despise training when it comes to guns?



I'm pretty sure that with extensive training program you can reduce some gun violence, but it's working only when training is mandatory (so you need training to own/use gun, it can be similar to driving licence).

So I'm interested in possible reasoning why training would be bad idea. There should be one as most of gun owners - if I'm right - are without proper training. So.. argument against training is alive as there isn't need to organize training for gun owners (and make it mandatory). I like to know that argument and then we can throw this whole idea about training to trashcan. As people are better off without training and things can keep going like they are just now.


Nope, training (aka education) in many areas is a good idea. Is there any reason that such (gun safety and/or CCW?) training, which is typically a matter of a few (10 to 15) hours, could (should?) not be included as part of a "free" public K-12 education? When I was in HS (late 1960's to early 1970s) driver's education was offered in HS and one could by a gun without any training or BGC.
 
If you want to see a big drop in gun violence make sure the person committing the gun violence goes
to jail for a mandatory time. No probation no parole. A 10 or 15 year sentence! Something like
Project Exile.


Project Exile is a federal program started in Richmond, Virginia in 1997. Project Exile shifted the prosecution of illegal technical gun possession offenses to federal court, where they carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years in federal prison under the federal Gun Control Act of 1968, rather than in state court. Note that federal law (18 U.S. Code § 922(g) & 924) provides for a penalty of ten years in federal prison for being a "prohibited person", i.e., a convicted felon in possession of a firearm, as well as for falsifying information in order to obtain one, or furnishing a gun to a convicted felon.

Project Exile - Wikipedia
 
If you want to see a big drop in gun violence make sure the person committing the gun violence goes
to jail for a mandatory time. No probation no parole. A 10 or 15 year sentence! Something like
Project Exile.


Project Exile is a federal program started in Richmond, Virginia in 1997. Project Exile shifted the prosecution of illegal technical gun possession offenses to federal court, where they carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years in federal prison under the federal Gun Control Act of 1968, rather than in state court. Note that federal law (18 U.S. Code § 922(g) & 924) provides for a penalty of ten years in federal prison for being a "prohibited person", i.e., a convicted felon in possession of a firearm, as well as for falsifying information in order to obtain one, or furnishing a gun to a convicted felon.

Project Exile - Wikipedia

Hmm... why should a "gun violence" offender be given nearly the same sentence as a "gun possession" offender? IMHO, if illegal gun possession is worth (at least?) 10 years in prison then possessing a gun while committing a violent crime should be (at least) 30 years in prison.
 
Is there any reason to despise training when it comes to guns?


I'm pretty sure that with extensive training program you can reduce some gun violence, but it's working only when training is mandatory (so you need training to own/use gun, it can be similar to driving licence).

So I'm interested in possible reasoning why training would be bad idea. There should be one as most of gun owners - if I'm right - are without proper training. So.. argument against training is alive as there isn't need to organize training for gun owners (and make it mandatory). I like to know that argument and then we can throw this whole idea about training to trashcan. As people are better off without training and things can keep going like they are just now.


Depends on the state. NY mandates training before issuing a license. I'm not against training.
 
Is there any reason to despise training when it comes to guns?



I'm pretty sure that with extensive training program you can reduce some gun violence, but it's working only when training is mandatory (so you need training to own/use gun, it can be similar to driving licence).

So I'm interested in possible reasoning why training would be bad idea. There should be one as most of gun owners - if I'm right - are without proper training. So.. argument against training is alive as there isn't need to organize training for gun owners (and make it mandatory). I like to know that argument and then we can throw this whole idea about training to trashcan. As people are better off without training and things can keep going like they are just now.


I wouldn't mind seeing firearm safety as a mandatory part of k-12 education much like reading, math and science are. We tell kids to look both ways before crossing the street so that they don't get hit by a vehicle. We tell kids to not talk to strangers so that they do not get abducted by Chester the Child Molester. We tell kids not to do drugs so that they don't become drug addicted losers or worse end up in prison. We tell kids to practice safe sex so they don't get pregnant and STDs. I even seen a PSA once telling girls not to share nudes of themselves with their boyfriend or else they could get slut shamed before the whole school. But yet we live in a country nearly four hundred million firearms in the hands of civilians and there is no k-12 firearm safety classes.

I do oppose mandatory training to exercise a right. Because that **** could be applied to for other rights and a right implies you don't need the government's permission to exercise it. Besides that, out of the thirty to forty thousand deaths a year caused by someone using a firearm how many do you think is because of lack of training? We know around 2/3rds of those are suicides and the vast majority of the remaining 1/3rd are homicides.
 
I do oppose mandatory training to exercise a right. Because that **** could be applied to for other rights and a right implies you don't need the government's permission to exercise it. Besides that, out of the thirty to forty thousand deaths a year caused by someone using a firearm how many do you think is because of lack of training? We know around 2/3rds of those are suicides and the vast majority of the remaining 1/3rd are homicides.

I really don't know how many, but some... as it also teach some respect / responsibility as you're somewhere focusing on gun related things (training sessions) - get some thoughts and not just how to hit the target. But thank you, now I have a clue why mandatory training is so bad idea and that's why it's not widely accepted practice.
 
Is there any reason to despise training when it comes to guns?



I'm pretty sure that with extensive training program you can reduce some gun violence, but it's working only when training is mandatory (so you need training to own/use gun, it can be similar to driving licence).

So I'm interested in possible reasoning why training would be bad idea. There should be one as most of gun owners - if I'm right - are without proper training. So.. argument against training is alive as there isn't need to organize training for gun owners (and make it mandatory). I like to know that argument and then we can throw this whole idea about training to trashcan. As people are better off without training and things can keep going like they are just now.


Well FinFox, My state of Idaho did constitutional carry(No gun permit required to conceal) like 5 or more years ago

The sky was going to fall because many like you cried about safety courses

Guess what?

It's all quiet here in Idaho
 
The sky was going to fall because many like you cried about safety courses

Well, it have absolutely zero effect on me, I'm just curious - so for me this is just theoretical thing, I'm not facing any of that - whatever it is for now or later on.
 
Well, it have absolutely zero effect on me, I'm just curious - so for me this is just theoretical thing, I'm not facing any of that - whatever it is for now or later on.

Okay, at least you seen another side of the story


Gun deaths here are mostly suicide and homicides

Far down the list is accidents at 1.3% a year?
 
Okay, at least you seen another side of the story

Yup and thanks. Soon this whole thing is clear as day :)

At this point I'm not yet trashing idea about training, maybe later.. who knows. As I stated first there is that 'some' word, because I have no idea how much in % it will reduce issues, it's just my assumption how training could be helpful in some ways. I'm completely outsider, I'm not even gun owner. Actually I was pretty sure about counter arguments to this training idea, I just didn't know them - now I'm getting some info / opinions about that. So.. I'm reaching my goal, everything is just fine.
 
Yup and thanks. Soon this whole thing is clear as day :)

At this point I'm not yet trashing idea about training, maybe later.. who knows. As I stated first there is that 'some' word, because I have no idea how much in % it will reduce issues, it's just my assumption how training could be helpful in some ways. I'm completely outsider, I'm not even gun owner. Actually I was pretty sure about counter arguments to this training idea, I just didn't know them - now I'm getting some info / opinions about that. So.. I'm reaching my goal, everything is just fine.

However, it is obvious that Gun training isn't our problem

Our society/citizenry is
 
Is there any reason to despise training when it comes to guns?



I'm pretty sure that with extensive training program you can reduce some gun violence, but it's working only when training is mandatory (so you need training to own/use gun, it can be similar to driving licence).

So I'm interested in possible reasoning why training would be bad idea. There should be one as most of gun owners - if I'm right - are without proper training. So.. argument against training is alive as there isn't need to organize training for gun owners (and make it mandatory). I like to know that argument and then we can throw this whole idea about training to trashcan. As people are better off without training and things can keep going like they are just now.


Training isn't a bad idea.

Americans tend to resist being mandated/forced/legislated to do what is normally common sense.

The whole freedom thing...
 
Is there any reason to despise training when it comes to guns?



I'm pretty sure that with extensive training program you can reduce some gun violence, but it's working only when training is mandatory (so you need training to own/use gun, it can be similar to driving licence).

So I'm interested in possible reasoning why training would be bad idea. There should be one as most of gun owners - if I'm right - are without proper training. So.. argument against training is alive as there isn't need to organize training for gun owners (and make it mandatory). I like to know that argument and then we can throw this whole idea about training to trashcan. As people are better off without training and things can keep going like they are just now.


Training costs money that some people don't have, and you can't put a price tag on the exercise of a constitutional right.

Besides, why should people require training if they already know whatever they would learn from the training?
 
Training costs money that some people don't have, and you can't put a price tag on the exercise of a constitutional right.

Besides, why should people require training if they already know whatever they would learn from the training?

Interesting how you can use constitutional right in way to argue against training - I have to admit, I didn't thought about it (well, I'm just Finn, that explains a lot). So this is where training crashes against wall for good and there isn't way around it as it's about constitution.

Silly me :2razz:
 
Is there any reason to despise training when it comes to guns?



I'm pretty sure that with extensive training program you can reduce some gun violence, but it's working only when training is mandatory (so you need training to own/use gun, it can be similar to driving licence).

So I'm interested in possible reasoning why training would be bad idea. There should be one as most of gun owners - if I'm right - are without proper training. So.. argument against training is alive as there isn't need to organize training for gun owners (and make it mandatory). I like to know that argument and then we can throw this whole idea about training to trashcan. As people are better off without training and things can keep going like they are just now.


A good point. I favor training all High School students in firearms, both rifle and pistol. Good firearms discipline is a good teaching tool for discipline itself.
 
Is there any reason to despise training when it comes to guns?

I'm pretty sure that with extensive training program you can reduce some gun violence,...

Maybe. It also means that unless the training is free, some otherwise suitable candidates cannot afford to own a gun. Furthermore, if the training is mandatory, it means that those who are in dire and immediate need of a firearm are prohibited (until they have completed their "course").

….but it's working only when training is mandatory (so you need training to own/use gun, it can be similar to driving licence).

??? Your opinion noted. You seem to be making an assumption that there is some social benefit to mandatory training (as yet unproven) that "somehow" should be used to decide if a person should be allowed to exercise a right. Personally, I don't think we should encumber civil rights with such governmental barriers, unless
1. There is a compelling government interest
2. The law is narrowly tailored to meet this interest
3. The law is the least restrictive way to meet this interest.

"Mandatory Training" arguably does not meet 2 or 3, and it might not even meet 1.

So I'm interested in possible reasoning why training would be bad idea.

Training is a good idea. Mandatory training is a bad idea.

... most of gun owners...are without proper training.

You seem now to be conflating "training" with "competence" or some other measure. Speaking from experience, "training" is vastly overrated if your goal is to increase safety. It is even less useful in promoting good judgement in high stress situations, which are the situations that concern most anti-gunners.
 
!. Treat all guns as loaded.
2. Never point a gun at anyone.

Now you're trained.
 
If you want to see a big drop in gun violence make sure the person committing the gun violence goes
to jail for a mandatory time. No probation no parole. A 10 or 15 year sentence! Something like
Project Exile.


Project Exile is a federal program started in Richmond, Virginia in 1997. Project Exile shifted the prosecution of illegal technical gun possession offenses to federal court, where they carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years in federal prison under the federal Gun Control Act of 1968, rather than in state court. Note that federal law (18 U.S. Code § 922(g) & 924) provides for a penalty of ten years in federal prison for being a "prohibited person", i.e., a convicted felon in possession of a firearm, as well as for falsifying information in order to obtain one, or furnishing a gun to a convicted felon.

Project Exile - Wikipedia

Democrats, the ACLU, and the NAACP opposed project exile and other similar efforts in other cities (I know, we did it in the districts I was assigned to). They claimed that it meant longer sentences for black males, who made up a majority of people prosecuted under this program
 
Is there any reason to despise training when it comes to guns?

I'm pretty sure that with extensive training program you can reduce some gun violence, but it's working only when training is mandatory (so you need training to own/use gun, it can be similar to driving licence).

So I'm interested in possible reasoning why training would be bad idea. There should be one as most of gun owners - if I'm right - are without proper training. So.. argument against training is alive as there isn't need to organize training for gun owners (and make it mandatory). I like to know that argument and then we can throw this whole idea about training to trashcan. As people are better off without training and things can keep going like they are just now.

What gun violence does training prevent?

And I have never ever heard or read any gun/2A supporter claim that training was a bad idea. We always encourage it.
 
Interesting how you can use constitutional right in way to argue against training - I have to admit, I didn't thought about it (well, I'm just Finn, that explains a lot). So this is where training crashes against wall for good and there isn't way around it as it's about constitution.

Silly me :2razz:

everyone should get basic training before owning a gun and those who carry them on our streets concealed-I do not oppose the requirements of classroom and range testing as we have in Ohio,.

everyone who wants to vote should have a basic understanding of civics and understand what the choices offer

everyone engaging in activities that are likely to lead to pregnancy ought to have basic training in parenting skills

unfortunately, none of the above can be forced on those who refuse to do such things.

I have hundreds of hours of formal training in firearm and I suspect I will hit a million rounds of practice at some point, assuming i am shooting for another 10 -12 years
 
What gun violence does training prevent?

And I have never ever heard or read any gun/2A supporter claim that training was a bad idea. We always encourage it.

I'm just hoping training is way to influence in right way, giving some perspective and hands-on knowledge. Also when something bad is happening there is people around who can act and shoot when needed (to prevent more tragedy). For car you need some lessons and practice, so why not with guns too.
 
Democrats, the ACLU, and the NAACP opposed project exile and other similar efforts in other cities (I know, we did it in the districts I was assigned to). They claimed that it meant longer sentences for black males, who made up a majority of people prosecuted under this program

And that is the BIG problem. Democrats want to disarm legal gun owners and let the criminal run wild.
We both know if something like project Exile was put into practice across the nation gun violence would plummet!
The democrats need to leave lawful gun owners alone.
 
I'm just hoping training is way to influence in right way, giving some perspective and hands-on knowledge. Also when something bad is happening there is people around who can act and shoot when needed (to prevent more tragedy). For car you need some lessons and practice, so why not with guns too.

What kind of training would you like to see? Ive swe everything from a simple online test up to multi weekend sessions as what is needed. I personally favour the idea of it being offered as part of the K-12 curriculum. I would say that would be the minimum to own a firearm and then maybe add in range qualifications to conceal carry. With all that said there is still a part of me hesitant to make a training qualification to exercise a right on principle.
 
What gun violence does training prevent?

And I have never ever heard or read any gun/2A supporter claim that training was a bad idea. We always encourage it.

These people are talking about MANDATORY gun training, Lursa. Mandatory anything infringes on the People's protected right to keep and bear arms.
 
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