Is it really guns, or is it drugs?

[MZ007]

For some reason, our country is obsessed with gun control, yet we shy away from the role our drug culture plays. Yes obviously guns ARE scary, and most of the violent crime does involve guns. But we never seem to ask why people are shooting each other to begin with. That is, guns themselves don't do the shootings, so what prompts people to shoot one another? "Too many guns" seems kind of plausible, yet there were times in our past when everybody was armed and they didn't have the crazy shootings like we do now. In fact, I know folks in the West who have guns and rifles all over the house, They love and collect them. But the rates of gun violence among them (save for suicide, which IS an entirely different class) is very low.

Now look and analyze just about each and every one of the violent, homicidal crimes in the news, whether it's by guns, knives, vehicles, bombs, etc. Nearly all of them have one thing in common- it's illegal, recreational drugs!

So just maybe some folks are warping their minds from these mind-altering drugs. They live in a different world and thus are more likely to commit homicide.

In fact note this latest statement about the latest mass shooter of the church in Texas "Kinnunen's ex-wife said he had a bad drug habit and lost touch with reality."

There we go. It might not be guns that are the ultimate culprit, but drugs that warp minds! Think about this and reply with your thoughts, please! Let's explore all possibilities with an honest and open mind.

 

[ecofarm]

It's mental illness and the stigma of therapy.

 

[MZ007]

Are you saying "mental illness" from drugs then?

 

[ecofarm]

Are you saying "mental illness" from drugs then?

Perhaps aggravated by drugs but the source of the problem is insufficient diagnosis and treatment resulting from the social stigma against seeking therapy.

 

[Felis Leo]

For some reason, our country is obsessed with gun control, yet we shy away from the role our drug culture plays. Yes obviously guns ARE scary, and most of the violent crime does involve guns. But we never seem to ask why people are shooting each other to begin with. That is, guns themselves don't do the shootings, so what prompts people to shoot one another? "Too many guns" seems kind of plausible, yet there were times in our past when everybody was armed and they didn't have the crazy shootings like we do now. In fact, I know folks in the West who have guns and rifles all over the house, They love and collect them. But the rates of gun violence among them (save for suicide, which IS an entirely different class) is very low.

Now look and analyze just about each and every one of the violent, homicidal crimes in the news, whether it's by guns, knives, vehicles, bombs, etc. Nearly all of them have one thing in common- it's illegal, recreational drugs!

So just maybe some folks are warping their minds from these mind-altering drugs. They live in a different world and thus are more likely to commit homicide.

In fact note this latest statement about the latest mass shooter of the church in Texas "Kinnunen's ex-wife said he had a bad drug habit and lost touch with reality."

There we go. It might not be guns that are the ultimate culprit, but drugs that warp minds! Think about this and reply with your thoughts, please! Let's explore all possibilities with an honest and open mind.

Well drugs certainly have an impact, many mass shootings (especially most of the worst mass shootings) are apparently committed by perpetrators of domestic violence. Stop jealous, angry men who beat and threaten their girlfriends and wives from purchasing guns (and jail those who try to obtain guns), you have pretty much solved the majority of mass shootings.

 

[Felis Leo]

Perhaps aggravated by drugs but the source of the problem is insufficient diagnosis and treatment resulting from the social stigma against seeking therapy.

Don't forget the cost of therapy, which is often out-of-pocket. And unless they are an immediate threat to themselves or others (which is exceedingly difficult to prove), people cannot be involuntarily committed to mental health facilities. While that prevents the sort of "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" levels of abuse that may have been a problem in the past, it is damn hard to put someone everyone knows needs help into some kind of program.

 

[Captain Adverse]

For some reason, our country is obsessed with gun control, yet we shy away from the role our drug culture plays. Yes obviously guns ARE scary, and most of the violent crime does involve guns...

Correction, MOST violent crimes do not involve guns. :no:

There were 6,385,520 crimes classified as "violent" in 2018. Only 1,329,700 involved weapons of any kind (includes ALL types of weapons, gun, knives, etc.).

MOST violent crime involves simple assault, 4,019,750 in 2018. https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv18.pdf

Just a clarification.

 

[Grand Mal]

Perhaps aggravated by drugs but the source of the problem is insufficient diagnosis and treatment resulting from the social stigma against seeking therapy.

Too simple. Those exist in other countries too, as do drugs and guns. Something else makes America uniquely violent.

 

[Grand Mal]

For some reason, our country is obsessed with gun control, yet we shy away from the role our drug culture plays. Yes obviously guns ARE scary, and most of the violent crime does involve guns. But we never seem to ask why people are shooting each other to begin with. That is, guns themselves don't do the shootings, so what prompts people to shoot one another? "Too many guns" seems kind of plausible, yet there were times in our past when everybody was armed and they didn't have the crazy shootings like we do now. In fact, I know folks in the West who have guns and rifles all over the house, They love and collect them. But the rates of gun violence among them (save for suicide, which IS an entirely different class) is very low.

Now look and analyze just about each and every one of the violent, homicidal crimes in the news, whether it's by guns, knives, vehicles, bombs, etc. Nearly all of them have one thing in common- it's illegal, recreational drugs!

So just maybe some folks are warping their minds from these mind-altering drugs. They live in a different world and thus are more likely to commit homicide.

In fact note this latest statement about the latest mass shooter of the church in Texas "Kinnunen's ex-wife said he had a bad drug habit and lost touch with reality."

There we go. It might not be guns that are the ultimate culprit, but drugs that warp minds! Think about this and reply with your thoughts, please! Let's explore all possibilities with an honest and open mind.

Do you mean that Americans use more drugs than people in less violent countries?

 

[MZ007]

Do you mean that Americans use more drugs than people in less violent countries?

Interesting point for sure, but there are many other variables at play. Most other countries are far more homogenous with regards to culture, genetics, nutrition, childhood trauma, etc, so making comparisons and drawing meaningful conclusions can be futile.

 

[MZ007]

Well drugs certainly have an impact, many mass shootings (especially most of the worst mass shootings) are apparently committed by perpetrators of domestic violence. Stop jealous, angry men who beat and threaten their girlfriends and wives from purchasing guns (and jail those who try to obtain guns), you have pretty much solved the majority of mass shootings.

How about all of the above plus drugs!

 

[TurtleDude]

Perhaps aggravated by drugs but the source of the problem is insufficient diagnosis and treatment resulting from the social stigma against seeking therapy.

obviously some people are nutcases-the Paddock active shooter comes to mind, and the asshole who killed a federal judge and crippled Gabby Giffords. Klebold and Harris were most likely mentally ill and the cretin who murdered dozens in a gay nightclub obviously had issues. So I would agree that most of the people who engage in active shootings where they shoot people they don't know are nutcases. But about 80% of the murders in the USA involve felons-mainly killing other mopes. I suspect that most of those killings are not what we can honestly claim are due to "mental illness"

 

[ecofarm]

obviously some people are nutcases-the Paddock active shooter comes to mind, and the asshole who killed a federal judge and crippled Gabby Giffords. Klebold and Harris were most likely mentally ill and the cretin who murdered dozens in a gay nightclub obviously had issues. So I would agree that most of the people who engage in active shootings where they shoot people they don't know are nutcases. But about 80% of the murders in the USA involve felons-mainly killing other mopes. I suspect that most of those killings are not what we can honestly claim are due to "mental illness"

I referred only to mass shootings. Though I expect we'd see a decrease in various other sorts of shootings if we could dispose of the stigma of therapy.

 

[MZ007]

Okay, thanks for the clarification. But that detail further illustrates my point that when addressing violence, we are overly obsessed with guns when we should be looking deeper. My angle is that a vulnerable subset of all recreational drug users are more prone to violence because their minds become distorted from drug use (currently or in the past).

Thus, take a closer look at all the major, irrational outbreaks of homicidal violence in recent decades. Most if not all of the perpetrators had pasts of drug usage as revealed by drug testing. It's kind of weird, but it could be those folks are hearing demons from those drugs, hallucinations I suppose, which carries onward to some kind of boiling point and the lash out at society.

 

[Grand Mal]

Interesting point for sure, but there are many other variables at play. Most other countries are far more homogenous with regards to culture, genetics, nutrition, childhood trauma, etc, so making comparisons and drawing meaningful conclusions can be futile.

Canada is about as close to America as any country can be. Lottsa guns, lottsa drugs, similar history and culture and as for diversity 20% of Canadians, 1/5, were born elsewhere. Yet Canada is nowhere near as violent a nation.
There's something else at work. It's not drugs or guns or diversity. Something else.

 

[TurtleDude]

I referred only to mass shootings. Though I expect we'd see a decrease in various other sorts of shootings if we could dispose of the stigma of therapy.

drug traffickers killing rivals over turf or whacking "rats" who snitch is in some ways, a machiavellian and rational bit of behavior. so is drug dealing in some situations

 

[ecofarm]

drug traffickers killing rivals over turf or whacking "rats" who snitch is in some ways, a machiavellian and rational bit of behavior. so is drug dealing in some situations

Yeah, I don't think therapy would help them. But the guy that shoots his girlfriend or boss... maybe, if society didn't label him weak for seeking therapy.

 

[MZ007]

obviously some people are nutcases-the Paddock active shooter comes to mind, and the asshole who killed a federal judge and crippled Gabby Giffords. Klebold and Harris were most likely mentally ill and the cretin who murdered dozens in a gay nightclub obviously had issues. So I would agree that most of the people who engage in active shootings where they shoot people they don't know are nutcases. But about 80% of the murders in the USA involve felons-mainly killing other mopes. I suspect that most of those killings are not what we can honestly claim are due to "mental illness"

ALL of them that you mention had drug use in their past. No kidding, though with Paddock there are only hints so far from his brother who mentioned "cocaine". Loughner was a druggie, Klebold and Harris too, same with Holmes, Cruz, Dylann Roof used marijuana and cocaine daily, etc, Thoughts?

 

[Bullseye]

Canada is about as close to America as any country can be. Lottsa guns, lottsa drugs, similar history and culture and as for diversity 20% of Canadians, 1/5, were born elsewhere. Yet Canada is nowhere near as violent a nation.
There's something else at work. It's not drugs or guns or diversity. Something else.

Canada's too damn cold - crooks don't want to take their hands out of their pockets to commit the crime. :lamo

 

[MZ007]

Canada is about as close to America as any country can be. Lottsa guns, lottsa drugs, similar history and culture and as for diversity 20% of Canadians, 1/5, were born elsewhere. Yet Canada is nowhere near as violent a nation.
There's something else at work. It's not drugs or guns or diversity. Something else.

How about breaking down the homicide rates by race? And subdivide that by demographics such as where people live, city, suburbs or rural, and particularly inner city?

 

[Grand Mal]

Canada's too damn cold - crooks don't want to take their hands out of their pockets to commit the crime. :lamo

Canadian crooks aren't as tender and delicate as American pansy crooks.

 

[ecofarm]

How about breaking down the homicide rates by race? And subdivide that by demographics such as where people live, city, suburbs or rural, and particularly inner city?

Economic class and population density will suffice.

 

[MZ007]

Canada is about as close to America as any country can be. Lottsa guns, lottsa drugs, similar history and culture and as for diversity 20% of Canadians, 1/5, were born elsewhere. Yet Canada is nowhere near as violent a nation.
There's something else at work. It's not drugs or guns or diversity. Something else.

Well for one, Blacks make up about 3 percent of the Canadian population, where it's about four times higher, or 12% in the US. And though I don';t have the precise numbers in front of me (it's for some reason hard to come by), I think that blacks murder about 8 times as much as caucasians. Correct me if I'm wrong but that statistic alone shows the reason Canada and the US are different (and this is not a racist inspired observation actually but cultural)

 

[TurtleDude]

Yeah, I don't think therapy would help them. But the guy that shoots his girlfriend or boss... maybe, if society didn't label him weak for seeking therapy.

Here is a sub issue. some people-some on the right, many on the left, want to expand what constitutes a prohibited person under the Gun control act of 1968 (codified at 18 USC 922 et seq) from those who have been mentally ADJUDICATED incompetent to those who merely have been diagnosed with mental illness (which can mean lots of things)

now here is the problem. Many people can have mental illness of some sort and be fully rational. And if they know that if they seek mental health care for say depression, then they might well have their firearms confiscated. So rather than nipping a problem in the bud, the avoid the doctors and things get worse.

so there has to be a balancing of privacy vs "public safety" so not to have a chilling impact on people seeking health care. My Mother in law, went from a vibrant, funny health woman of 66 to an emaciated shell of a woman in 6 months due to an aggressive form of the almost always terminal form of brain cancer. My wife's two sisters did little to help-one lives in the SW and the other just didn't get involved. So my wife was saddled with carrying for her mother while dealing with our then 4 year old son who ended up having 17 surgeries before he could drive. My mother in law was divorced and had no support here either. And yes, my wife suffered mild depression from watching her mother whither away. and she sought help and had a two week course of mild anti-depressants. Now she was an active competitive shooter at the time. If she knew that telling her family doctor that she felt depressed watching her mom die would mean she couldn't compete or even own her trap shotguns, would she have seen a doctor? I don't know

 

[Grand Mal]

How about breaking down the homicide rates by race? And subdivide that by demographics such as where people live, city, suburbs or rural, and particularly inner city?

Why? To boil it down to peaceful white people? Is that the aim? Listen up. Black Americans, brown Americans, white Americans, they all have one thing in common. Wherever they live, Detroit, Atlanta, Denver, Kalispell, wherever, they all have one thing in common. You want to break it all down, throw out the most violent pieces and say that what's left is different from America? Take the most violent parts out of America and you'll be left with Norway?
Don't work that way. Those people, that demographic who are so peaceful and Scandinavian had the making of your society. They made America what it is today.
So what's the problem? Why is America so violent?