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Police: 13 people shot at house party in Chicago

Rich2018 said:
Hmmm I did a brief search of the Portuguese experience.

It seems to have helped addicts by decriminalizing them which allowed better access to healthcare but overall consumption of cocaine and heroin increased.


I'd hate to see large numbers of Americans needing a fix of heroin to feed their habit on a daily basis. These people would see their health rapidly deteriorate and they wouldn't be able to make a rational decision on DUI for example.


Lastly if drugs were legalized, it would be a lot harder to criminalize them again if the experiment didn't work.


I must admit the Mexican drug cartels would go out of business and the US prison population would decline (but probably the US hospital population would rise).
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Thanks for the reply.

To have a common reference, I'm posting the Wiki entry - feel free to post others if you so desire.

Here's the entry's summation of the results of decriminalization:

Thorough studies on how the various efforts have been implemented were not conducted. Thus, a causal effect between strategy efforts and these developments cannot be firmly established.[12] There are, however, statistical indicators that suggest the following correlations between the drug strategy and the following developments, from July 2001 up to 2007:

Increased uptake of treatment (roughly 60% increase as of 2012.)[12]

Reduction in new HIV diagnoses amongst drug users by 17%[19] and a general drop of 90% in drug-related HIV infection

Reduction in drug related deaths, although this reduction has decreased in later years. The number of drug related deaths is now almost on the same level as before the drug strategy was implemented.[12][19] However, this may be accounted for by improvement in measurement practices, which includes a doubling of toxicological autopsies now being performed, meaning that more drugs related deaths are likely to be recorded.[20]

Reported lifetime use of "all illicit drugs" increased from 7.8% to 12%, lifetime use of cannabis increased from 7.6% to 11.7%, cocaine use more than doubled, from 0.9% to 1.9%, ecstasy nearly doubled from 0.7% to 1.3%, and heroin increased from 0.7% to 1.1%[19] It has been proposed[by whom?] that this effect may have been related to the candor of interviewees, who may have been inclined to answer more truthfully due to a reduction in the stigma associated with drug use.[20] However, during the same period, the use of heroin and cannabis also increased in Spain and Italy, where drugs for personal use was decriminalised many years earlier than in Portugal [20][21] while the use of Cannabis and heroin decreased in the rest of Western Europe.[22][23]

The increase in drug use observed among adults in Portugal was not greater than that seen in nearby countries that did not change their drug laws.[24]

Possibly unrelated, homicide rate increased from 1.13 per 100 000 in 2000 to 1.76 in 2007, then decreased to 0.96 in 2015 [25][26][27]

Drug use among adolescents (13-15 yrs) and "problematic" users declined.[20]

Drug-related criminal justice workloads decreased.[20]

Decreased street value of most illicit drugs, some significantly[citation needed]

The number of drug related deaths has reduced from 131 in 2001 to 20 in 2008.[28] As of 2012, Portugal's drug death toll sat at 3 per million, in comparison to the EU average of 17.3 per million.
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Source: (Wikipedia) Drug policy of Portugal

There's a lot of data there. But as you seem to have accurately stated, some drug use did increase, though drug use increased in a similar manner among Portugal's surrounding countries as well. But it is clear that despite the increase in drug use, health is up, crime and death are down.

So with all this being said, I personally have no problem with this. If my fellow Americans want to use drugs, it's surely none of my business as long as their actions do not negatively effect me. Let's remember the War on Drugs has caused us a plethora of severe problems as well (not the least of which are Constitutional IMO).

It's a balancing act.
 
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AProudLefty said:
Thanks.

"Nevertheless, consumption of all drugs has risen modestly—most notably for cocaine and heroin. Such policies therefore seem to be effective in reducing certain harms to society, namely those associated with addiction"

The article is very positive.
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Yeah, that's what I thought too.

The results are positive when viewed strictly within the arena of drugs & drug use itself. But when we add-in the greater picture of the immense harm the War on Drugs does to our fellow citizens and the country as a whole, I think the evidence becomes overwhelmingly in favor of decriminalization.
 
AProudLefty said:
Thanks.

"Nevertheless, consumption of all drugs has risen modestly—most notably for cocaine and heroin. Such policies therefore seem to be effective in reducing certain harms to society, namely those associated with addiction"

The article is very positive.
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Yes if you read back I did make that point, I'm wary of trying such an experiment here since it would be harder to ban drugs again after you've legalized them.

The US treasury would make a lot a tax money though and the US prison population would fall I think.
 
Rich2018 said:
Yes if you read back I did make that point, I'm wary of trying such an experiment here since it would be harder to ban drugs again after you've legalized them.

The US treasury would make a lot a tax money though and the US prison population would fall I think.
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Well it doesn't say how much has risen. But your article makes decriminalization seem to be worth it overall.
 
Chomsky said:
...if my fellow Americans want to use drugs, it's surely none of my business as long as their actions do not negatively effect me....
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I thought the same way about motorbike helmets and car seatbelt laws until someone pointed out that it does negatively impact you.

The increased strain on the health system....the increased cost to health premiums
The increase in benefits (people becoming unemployable - you might very well be a victim of someone not doing their job right)

What about the dependents affected and social services having to take up the slack with your tax dollars.


Are you OK with a sizable proportion of disabled people, unable to work through the effects of drugs, receiving disability payments, to buy more drugs ?
 
AProudLefty said:
This is a very good article. Worth the read.

Want to Win the War on Drugs? Portugal Might Have the Answer | Time
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I only skimmed the article, and had to bookmark it due to a busy day in my house. But I've read similar, and quite honestly I haven't really found an article that was factually negative. I've been following Portugal since they first did this in 2001, since I find the experiment interesting as hell.

But while evaluating these article from the pro-drug oriented perspective, we can't divorce it from the harm from other side of the equation - the War on Drugs! The devastation caused by the War on Drugs in ruined lives through crime, violence, and criminal justice system and criminal records is immense. And this touches all of us, given the financial empowerment of street gangs and drug traffickers and the violence & crime concurrent with their activities in our neighborhoods.

And quite frankly, it's even worse with the government response to each one of us, not just those in the drug crowd. Our money is watched, and we can't freely carry it, bank it, or electronically carry it as we used to, unless we want to become (financial) criminals ourselves. We are subject to search and seizure of our property without what I believe is proper due process. All in the name of the War on Drugs!

It's this affront to our freedom & liberties and the very Constitution itself, that bothers me the most. I find it disgusting. Far more disgusting than some hapless junkie with a personal problem.
 
Rich2018 said:
I thought the same way about motorbike helmets and car seatbelt laws until someone pointed out that it does negatively impact you.

The increased strain on the health system....the increased cost to health premiums
The increase in benefits (people becoming unemployable - you might very well be a victim of someone not doing their job right)

What about the dependents affected and social services having to take up the slack with your tax dollars.


Are you OK with a sizable proportion of disabled people, unable to work through the effects of drugs, receiving disability payments, to buy more drugs ?
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I understand your sentiments here. I am very clean living and don't smoke, drink, use drugs, or have risky sex or other risky lifestyle activities (well - besides motorsports & recreational aviation!). And I personally espouse the virtues of clean living to all that will listen, especially my kids & those I love. Hell, I even do it here at DP!

But while you do make accurate & valid points about the greater societal costs of drug use, we also can't ignore the great damage done by the War on Drugs - including what I believe is a great deal of Constitutional damage.

So I do agree with your specific points in this post, but when I look at the totality of the big picture of all the effects of the War on Drugs, I believe more harm is currently being done to society than the drugs themselves cause (take a look at my post above - #61).
 
Chomsky said:
...while you do make accurate & valid points about the greater societal costs of drug use, we also can't ignore the great damage done by the War on Drugs - including what I believe is a great deal of Constitutional damage.
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Well clearly a lot of gun deaths/injuries are caused by drugs from turf wars to shoot outs with federal agents to addicts scrambling for cash for their next fix

I wonder how much if anything the price of cocaine would fall if legalized ?


Would we also not abandon a section of society by allowing them drugs and watch their continued downward spiral ?


We would see the prison population drop and that would save $$$

Gut feeling is that legalizing drugs would have a net bad effect.


Btw, what Constitutional damage are you talking about ?
 
Rich2018 said:
Well clearly a lot of gun deaths/injuries are caused by drugs from turf wars to shoot outs with federal agents to addicts scrambling for cash for their next fix

I wonder how much if anything the price of cocaine would fall if legalized ?


Would we also not abandon a section of society by allowing them drugs and watch their continued downward spiral ?


We would see the prison population drop and that would save $$$

Gut feeling is that legalizing drugs would have a net bad effect.


Btw, what Constitutional damage are you talking about ?
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I'm speaking of infringements upon personal liberty & due process.

That government can watch your private financial transactions, determining you are suspected to be drug dealing without other cause than your banking transactions. That a dog trained to gett excited during a traffic stop, negates your 14th amendment due process probable cause rights. That your property can be seized due to suspicions, rather than through due process through the courts. Even worse - your property is seized without due process on mere so-called "suspicion", but you must "prove innocence" to get it back!

None of these things above were present before the War on Drugs, and all we're done in the name of the War on Drugs. And I haven't even started on the Constitutionality of the government preventing us from having the freedom to do with our own bodies as we please! So yeah, there's a lot I have problems with here.
 
Chomsky said:
I'm speaking of infringements upon personal liberty & due process.

That government can watch your private financial transactions, determining you are suspected to be drug dealing without other cause than your banking transactions. That a dog trained to gett excited during a traffic stop, negates your 14th amendment due process probable cause rights. That your property can be seized due to suspicions, rather than through due process through the courts. Even worse - your property is seized without due process on mere so-called "suspicion", but you must "prove innocence" to get it back!

None of these things above were present before the War on Drugs, and all we're done in the name of the War on Drugs. And I haven't even started on the Constitutionality of the government preventing us from having the freedom to do with our own bodies as we please! So yeah, there's a lot I have problems with here.
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Yes, you're innocent until proven guilty; only refers to a human

Animals and innanimate objects are guilty until proven innocent.


If a cop stops you and you happen to have $10,000 on you to buy a Steinway piano from a guy selling on on Craig's List, he can seize it and all he has to do is claim it was suspected drug money.
That needs to be stopped

People should sue the police more and juries find against the local PD

I read of an incident though (I think in Illinois) where a man was stopped on a routine traffic stop. Once satisfied the cop then proceeded to search the man's car (without permission and that's important) and found drugs in the trunk.
He was arrested and convicted of intent to supply etc but the state's Supreme Court judged the search was unconstitutional and freed him (he didn't get his drugs back though).

So sometimes the system works but:

1. Never talk to the police
2. Never give them permission to enter your house or search you or your car/boat/plane whatever.
3. If you can, video the incident with your phone
 
Rich2018 said:
Yes, you're innocent until proven guilty; only refers to a human

Animals and innanimate objects are guilty until proven innocent.


If a cop stops you and you happen to have $10,000 on you to buy a Steinway piano from a guy selling on on Craig's List, he can seize it and all he has to do is claim it was suspected drug money.
That needs to be stopped

People should sue the police more and juries find against the local PD

I read of an incident though (I think in Illinois) where a man was stopped on a routine traffic stop. Once satisfied the cop then proceeded to search the man's car (without permission and that's important) and found drugs in the trunk.
He was arrested and convicted of intent to supply etc but the state's Supreme Court judged the search was unconstitutional and freed him (he didn't get his drugs back though).

So sometimes the system works but:

1. Never talk to the police
2. Never give them permission to enter your house or search you or your car/boat/plane whatever.
3. If you can, video the incident with your phone
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Hah! I believe you have a bit of a Libertarian streak in you, as do I, and I think it should be at least a partial component of anyone that claims to lean Liberal.
 
Chomsky said:
Hah! I believe you have a bit of a Libertarian streak in you, as do I, and I think it should be at least a partial component of anyone that claims to lean Liberal.
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There's a ton of YouTube videos on what not to do/say when approached by cops who think they're the arbiters of good vs evil.


Watch this one:

YouTube
 
Rich2018 said:
There's a ton of YouTube videos on what not to do/say when approached by cops who think they're the arbiters of good vs evil.


Watch this one:

YouTube
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Saw that a long time ago ...
 
Chomsky said:
Saw that a long time ago ...
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It's as relevant now as it was then.

Never talk to cops.


I think there must be a ban on reporting law suits against the police....because the public is given ample opportunity to sue them.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yep, life in "the hood" continues as usual. The sad part is that since it does not place any of their demorat leadership in danger of losing power nothing need be changed.
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So you're saying that the president's thoughts and prayers would not be issued in such circumstances ?


Why wouldn't gun deaths in under privileged areas not be a cause for concern ?
 
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