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Bill to remove short barreled rifles from NFA.

Rich2018 said:
Wasn't the Cutts compensator a series of cuts/groves to the top of the muzzle, of a Tommy Gun, to allow gases out easily upward but not downward, thus forcing the barrel of the gun down and acting against "climb" as the gun is fired ?
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correct. the shotgun versions had changeable choke tubes in front of the device
 
RF667799 said:
Okay. It looks like it's kind of a double choke deal. The choke opens up slightly and then constricts again. Some quick reading showed me a lot of opinions that they work best with fiber wads and aren't as effective with modern shot cup wads.

"Poly-choke" was the old adjustable choke I was most familiar with. I suppose they would still be useful if you had an old fixed choke gun and wanted to make it more versatile. Damn ugly though.
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in the late 70s, winchester had the winchoke and Perazzi had screw chokes and Briley came out with aftermarket screw chokes. at the big collegiate shoot-I shot my skeet gun in the International clay target event with full chokes and placed-a bunch of other shooters asked me how I was breaking targets 80M out with skeet chokes-screw chokes were still pretty rare in 1979. The popularity of sporting clays really pushed the makers into offering screw chokes.
 
Rich2018 said:
Are chokes required by law anywhere ?
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Not that I am aware of-and why? all shotguns that shoot shot have some sort of choke even if there is no constriction
 
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Rich2018 said:
Are chokes required by law anywhere ?
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Not that I know of, though the idiocy of legislators isn't something I would care to underestimate.
 
TurtleDude said:
in the late 70s, winchester had the winchoke and Perazzi had screw chokes and Briley came out with aftermarket screw chokes. at the big collegiate shoot-I shot my skeet gun in the International clay target event with full chokes and placed-a bunch of other shooters asked me how I was breaking targets 80M out with skeet chokes-screw chokes were still pretty rare in 1979. The popularity of sporting clays really pushed the makers into offering screw chokes.
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Don't underestimate the effect of hunters on the market, who might want to use the same shotgun for pass shooting ducks as for quail in heavy brush. Screw in choke tubes are the best thing since sliced bread if you ask me.

I think they're nearly standard on everything except specialized shotguns these days. Even a cheap Italian O/U I have came with them.
 
RF667799 said:
What is back-boring?

Browning probably explains it on their website better than I can. Simply though, the bore is opened up just slightly, say from .729 to .740. There already is some tolerances in the nominal diameter between manufacturers and even between different examples of the same gun. The recoil happens in the initial "push" when the shell is fired and the shot is still accelerating down the barrel. I don't think the constriction of the choke adds any significant recoil.

No, it wasn't a cylinder choke. It had interchangeable choke tubes and what I generally used was a Briley full extended choke tube. Remember that a choke is judged by the relative difference between it and the bore of the barrel- the amount of constriction. So because the Briley was intended to give full choke effect on a standard bore gun, it may have given me something like x-tra full on my back bored browning.

This played out in casual observation when I lent that gun to a guy once, and the first thing he did was shoot the back of the traphouse courtesy of its lightened trigger. (I had warned him.) The back of the traphouse is ~14 yards from the 16 yard line. The chunk of concrete it spalled looked to be a little bigger than a softball. I liked it like that. When I was on my game it made smoke out the targets. If I started having targets that broke into 3 or 4 pieces, I knew I had to buckle down or I was going to lose one.
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I understand Browning's explanation, and it makes perfect sense. The larger diameter barrel allows for more room when the gunpowder ignites, thus reducing the recoil because there is less chamber pressure. However, when you reduce that larger barrel diameter back to its original size, or smaller, by using a full choke then you are increasing the recoil because you are confining those gases to a more restricted opening. So using a full choke would defeat the purpose of reducing the recoil, but a cylinder choke would not. I'm not sure about an improved cylinder choke or a modified choke, they may only negate the effect in part or not at all.

Either way, a back-bored barrel will reduce the range of the firearm because more of the chamber gases are allowed to escape, unless you compensated with an even larger caliber round.
 
RF667799 said:
Don't underestimate the effect of hunters on the market, who might want to use the same shotgun for pass shooting ducks as for quail in heavy brush. Screw in choke tubes are the best thing since sliced bread if you ask me.

I think they're nearly standard on everything except specialized shotguns these days. Even a cheap Italian O/U I have came with them.
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oh I agree. the only shotguns I have that don't have them are a couple old pump guns and a really old 410 Iver Johnson side by side and my son has a Beretta DT-11 made purely for Olympic trap. My K-80s have those Tula Chokes as well.
 
Glitch said:
I understand Browning's explanation, and it makes perfect sense. The larger diameter barrel allows for more room when the gunpowder ignites, thus reducing the recoil because there is less chamber pressure. However, when you reduce that larger barrel diameter back to its original size, or smaller, by using a full choke then you are increasing the recoil because you are confining those gases to a more restricted opening. So using a full choke would defeat the purpose of reducing the recoil, but a cylinder choke would not. I'm not sure about an improved cylinder choke or a modified choke, they may only negate the effect in part or not at all.

Either way, a back-bored barrel will reduce the range of the firearm because more of the chamber gases are allowed to escape, unless you compensated with an even larger caliber round.
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I don't know if it's that big of a deal. Shotgun powders are fast burning. I don't think there is any acceleration still happening down near the choke in a standard length barrel. Also, the base wad portion of the shot cup expands to fit whatever the bore diameter is within reason. IMO? The recoil reducing effect is so negligible as to be imperceptible by the shooter.
 
RF667799 said:
I don't know if it's that big of a deal. Shotgun powders are fast burning. I don't think there is any acceleration still happening down near the choke in a standard length barrel. Also, the base wad portion of the shot cup expands to fit whatever the bore diameter is within reason. IMO? The recoil reducing effect is so negligible as to be imperceptible by the shooter.
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You are absolutely correct about the wad expanding, that completely slipped my mind.

Personally, I was never bothered by the kick of a 12-guage, but I'm a big guy. I've gone through an entire box of clays without a Past pad or any protection. I find 12-guages have less kick than my Springfield .3006, and slightly more than an M16 or AR15 firing 5.56mm.
 
TurtleDude said:
oh I agree. the only shotguns I have that don't have them are a couple old pump guns and a really old 410 Iver Johnson side by side and my son has a Beretta DT-11 made purely for Olympic trap. My K-80s have those Tula Chokes as well.
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Was Winchoke the first? I know it didn't take the rest of the manufacturers long to get on board. But even in the late 70s I had an 870TB Remington with a 30" Modified Trap fixed choke barrel. I wish I still had it. Great trapshooting gun but hard to pass shoot doves with it.
 
RF667799 said:
Was Winchoke the first? I know it didn't take the rest of the manufacturers long to get on board. But even in the late 70s I had an 870TB Remington with a 30" Modified Trap fixed choke barrel. I wish I still had it. Great trapshooting gun but hard to pass shoot doves with it.
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I don't recall. I remember as a freshman at the collegiate championships, one of the good shooters from another school was talking about having his shotgun fitted with screw chokes by Briley iirc. That was when I first really recall knowing about those things. When I shot in HS, I had a skeet gun and a trap gun. fixed chokes
 
Glitch said:
You are absolutely correct about the wad expanding, that completely slipped my mind.

Personally, I was never bothered by the kick of a 12-guage, but I'm a big guy. I've gone through an entire box of clays without a Past pad or any protection. I find 12-guages have less kick than my Springfield .3006, and slightly more than an M16 or AR15 firing 5.56mm.
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I was never bothered by the kick of a 12 gauge until I had a couple years of shooting roughly 4-500 targets a week. Now, my BT99 was heavy, I used light target loads for the most part, and it had an adjustable stock well fitted for me that included little recoil reducing hydraulic cylinders. But I nevertheless developed an intermittent flinch. I went to really soft shooting 1 ounce loads but never was able to conquer it entirely.

I think the hardest kicking shotgun I ever had was a little 20 gauge O/U. Dang cute little thing but so light and fitted me so poorly it left bruises on the side of my face.
 
RF667799 said:
I was never bothered by the kick of a 12 gauge until I had a couple years of shooting roughly 4-500 targets a week. Now, my BT99 was heavy, I used light target loads for the most part, and it had an adjustable stock well fitted for me that included little recoil reducing hydraulic cylinders. But I nevertheless developed an intermittent flinch. I went to really soft shooting 1 ounce loads but never was able to conquer it entirely.

I think the hardest kicking shotgun I ever had was a little 20 gauge O/U. Dang cute little thing but so light and fitted me so poorly it left bruises on the side of my face.
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Yea, it only takes one bad or unexpected incident to start a flinch, and it can be damn difficult to work it out. I try to do my flinching after I pull the trigger. I want the firearm to surprise me when it goes off. ;)
 
Originally Posted by zsu2357
Rich have you been watching TV again? You know where the sawed off 12ga. blows a 5x5 hole in a cinder block wall at 10 paces.
Like that "obvious criminal use". Know doubt dangerous to people around you shooting it. Hell you'd probably put your[EYE] out.
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=Rich2018;1070994307]Do you want to proof read your text?
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I fixed it for your comprehension.
I saw a video that claimed
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Was that the Hollywood version with John Wayne?
an 18" barrel (normal legal length) shotgun spread at about one inch per yard down range.
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Buckshot Myth Busting: How Today's 00 Buck Loads Fare Downrange and note the stats at the bottom concerning spread.
Besides I'm going on your photo of a sawed off. Guessing 13-14" barrel.

I shudder to think what a sawed off shotgun would do in that respect.
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With an 11"-12"barrel maybe 3.5"-4" wider shot dispersal than your 18". Are you shuddering yet?
 
Glitch said:
Yea, it only takes one bad or unexpected incident to start a flinch, and it can be damn difficult to work it out. I try to do my flinching after I pull the trigger. I want the firearm to surprise me when it goes off. ;)
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My flinch came from cumulative effect of tens of thousands of rounds. It was hard wired into my brain so to speak. It was intermittent so that I never knew when it might happen and it manifested itself as an almost physical inability to pull the trigger. Kind of hard to explain. It's like my hand-eye coordination and muscle memory were demanding I pull but my trigger finger was obeying something subconscious and refusing. The result being following the target way too long and finally making a desperate jerk at the trigger, almost always resulting in a lost target.
 
RF667799 said:
My flinch came from cumulative effect of tens of thousands of rounds. It was hard wired into my brain so to speak. It was intermittent so that I never knew when it might happen and it manifested itself as an almost physical inability to pull the trigger. Kind of hard to explain. It's like my hand-eye coordination and muscle memory were demanding I pull but my trigger finger was obeying something subconscious and refusing. The result being following the target way too long and finally making a desperate jerk at the trigger, almost always resulting in a lost target.
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I developed a flinch since I was shooting 4000 or more registered targets a year. When I won my last state skeet title, the referee was the father of soon to be national champion Kenny Corwin who finished second to me. He came up to me after the last round and said-you were flinching in front of the targets-which is why you were breaking the front end off of many. So I started working on that-dry firing, shooting 28 gauge shells out of a tube. Took me a year to get rid of it. lots of ATA trap shooters go to release triggers for this problem
 
Fledermaus said:
And more perceived recoil, more blast, etc. The jungle carbine SMLE is an example.
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Answered a for sale ad for a .303 carbine when I was 16. Shoveled out a couple of horse stalls for this old guy and he asked if I'd swap for it(hell yeah). And no perceived recoil it was definitely there. .303 ammo at the time ¢5 each.
 
TurtleDude said:
I developed a flinch since I was shooting 4000 or more registered targets a year. When I won my last state skeet title, the referee was the father of soon to be national champion Kenny Corwin who finished second to me. He came up to me after the last round and said-you were flinching in front of the targets-which is why you were breaking the front end off of many. So I started working on that-dry firing, shooting 28 gauge shells out of a tube. Took me a year to get rid of it. lots of ATA trap shooters go to release triggers for this problem
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Yep, if I didn't make an uncoordinated jerk at the trigger I would push the shotgun in an attempt to get the damn thing to fire. I had a lightened trigger in my BT99 which in hindsight might have helped make the problem in the first place. I don't think I would have ever been comfortable with a release trigger though.
 
RF667799 said:
Yep, if I didn't make an uncoordinated jerk at the trigger I would push the shotgun in an attempt to get the damn thing to fire. I had a lightened trigger in my BT99 which in hindsight might have helped make the problem in the first place. I don't think I would have ever been comfortable with a release trigger though.
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Unless you have experienced it-it is hard to describe. I coach archers. There is a common malady in archery called target panic. Same thing. archers cannot hold their anchor in some cases-aim their bow at the target, or release the string. Its all a conflict between the conscious and the subconscious
 
marke said:
Leftist wussies are scared to death of guns and stupidly think making guns illegal will force thugs to lay their guns down like good little boys.
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No Marke it's not about thugs, they don't care about that.

It's about you, forcing you to put your guns down.
 
Rich2018 said:
It could be, as the term "rifle" refers to the construction of the barrel - NOTHING else.

I wouldn't expect you to know that or that there is no "standard" definition of a rifle other than the construction of the barrel.
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A rifle is a portable, long-barrelled firearm designed for accurate long-range shooting, to be held with both hands and braced against the shoulder for stability during firing, and with a barrel that has a helical pattern of grooves ("rifling") cut into the bore wall. The term was originally rifled gun, with the word "rifle" referring to the machining process of creating groovings with cutting tools, and is now used for any long handheld device designed for well-aimed discharge activated by a trigger, such as the personnel halting and stimulation response rifle. Rifles are used extensively in warfare, law enforcement, hunting and shooting sports.
Rifle - Wikipedia

As I said. Incorrect.
 
Glitch said:
Short barreled rifles are less dangerous than a similar caliber rifle with a longer barrel. They have less muzzle energy, despite firing identical rounds, and they are much less accurate than a rifle with a longer barrel.
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I didn't say anything to the contrary. I don't know why you felt that needed to be stated.

Glitch said:
The purpose of levying a prohibitive tax on them under the National Firearms Act of 1934 was to raise revenue.
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That's incorrect. The purpose of the tax stamp was to reduce the supply in the general public because that's what taxes do to commodities. Anytime the government wants to reduce something, they add a tax to it.

Glitch said:
It had absolutely nothing to do with stopping crime.
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It had everything to do with stopping crime.
 
RF667799 said:
My flinch came from cumulative effect of tens of thousands of rounds. It was hard wired into my brain so to speak. It was intermittent so that I never knew when it might happen and it manifested itself as an almost physical inability to pull the trigger. Kind of hard to explain. It's like my hand-eye coordination and muscle memory were demanding I pull but my trigger finger was obeying something subconscious and refusing. The result being following the target way too long and finally making a desperate jerk at the trigger, almost always resulting in a lost target.
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I developed a flinch in while in basic training in the Marine Corps. My right eye is my dominate eye so I have always shot right-handed. However, when the Marines looked at my personnel file they noticed that I was left-handed and insisted that I shoot left-handed. This was 1972, and the M16A1 was brand new to the Corps. The ejected brass would fly directly into my face after every shot. This was before they had deflectors, like they have now.

After I got out of boot camp I went back to shooting right-handed, and that ended my flinching.
 
TurtleDude said:
FDR originally wanted to ban all handguns btw.
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I know, it's just not relevant to this discussion. You like to inject irrelevant trivia everywhere, I noticed. This thread is not about handguns, or sports cars, or brown rice. This thread is about SBRs. Kindly stick to the subject for once?
 
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