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Bill to remove short barreled rifles from NFA.

Fledermaus said:
Someone who has been arguing with gun folks for 20 years thinks a rifle is a small pistol or large tank gun.

Classic.
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It could be, as the term "rifle" refers to the construction of the barrel - NOTHING else.

I wouldn't expect you to know that or that there is no "standard" definition of a rifle other than the construction of the barrel.
 
Rich2018 said:
What about types of chokes, I admit to knowing very little about shotguns other than having fired a British 12-bore once.
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the tighter the choke-to a point-the tighter the pattern at a given distance. chokes are usually measured at how many pellets they put into a circle of 3 feet IIRC at a certain range-might be 25 or 40 yards . A full choke will put far more pellets in that circle than a cylinder choke (which has no constriction)

this might explain it better

https://www.rem870.com/2012/05/06/shotgun-chokes-explained-cylinder-improved-cylinder-modified-full/
 
TurtleDude said:
the tighter the choke-to a point-the tighter the pattern at a given distance. chokes are usually measured at how many pellets they put into a circle of 3 feet IIRC at a certain range-might be 25 or 40 yards . A full choke will put far more pellets in that circle than a cylinder choke (which has no constriction)

this might explain it better

https://www.rem870.com/2012/05/06/shotgun-chokes-explained-cylinder-improved-cylinder-modified-full/
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That's interesting because Yaeger was saying he answers questions from people who want to buy special ammunition to keep their shot tighter but he doesn't mention fitting a choke. He talks about a slug instead.

By fitting a choke aren't you effectively increasing the bore/gauge ?
 
Rich2018 said:
That's interesting because Yaeger was saying he answers questions from people who want to buy special ammunition to keep their shot tighter but he doesn't mention fitting a choke. He talks about a slug instead.

By fitting a choke aren't you effectively increasing the bore/gauge ?
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no, you are actually slightly decreasing the bore diameter. Gauge was originally based on how many balls the size of the bore would equal a pound. A for a 16 Gauge gun, each ball would weigh an ounce (16 balls= a pound). a 28 gauge-28 balls. The only standard shotgun bore that doesn't apply to is the 410 which is the size in inches (.410 inch diameter)
 
TurtleDude said:
the tighter the choke-to a point-the tighter the pattern at a given distance. chokes are usually measured at how many pellets they put into a circle of 3 feet IIRC at a certain range-might be 25 or 40 yards . A full choke will put far more pellets in that circle than a cylinder choke (which has no constriction)

this might explain it better

Shotgun Chokes Explained (Cylinder, Improved Cylinder, Modified, Full)
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Chokes tighten the pattern of the shot and enable you to shoot further distances. I use a modified choke on my Remington 870 with a 28" barrel. My old Mossberg Model 500 uses a cylinder choke on a rifled 18.5" barrel. I would not recommend firing a slug from a shotgun that is equipped with either a full choke or a modified choke, because it may damage the barrel.
 
Glitch said:
Chokes tighten the pattern of the shot and enable you to shoot further distances. I use a modified choke on my Remington 870 with a 28" barrel. My old Mossberg Model 500 uses a cylinder choke on a rifled 18.5" barrel. I would not recommend firing a slug from a shotgun that is equipped with either a full choke or a modified choke, because it may damage the barrel.
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true dat. have you ever tried a rifled choke for shooting slugs>
 
TurtleDude said:
true dat. have you ever tried a rifled choke for shooting slugs>
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No. Why would they even make a rifled choke? With a 1:7 or 1:9 rifling twist the 3" long choke wouldn't make any difference whatsoever. I have seen slugs fired from a shotgun with a full choke. They managed to pull it off without damaging their shotgun, but it isn't something I would recommend.
 
Glitch said:
No. Why would they even make a rifled choke? With a 1:7 or 1:9 rifling twist the 3" long choke wouldn't make any difference whatsoever. I have seen slugs fired from a shotgun with a full choke. They managed to pull it off without damaging their shotgun, but it isn't something I would recommend.
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it is said that rifled chokes will extend the practical accuracy of some slugs 50 yards or so
 
TurtleDude said:
no, you are actually slightly decreasing the bore diameter. Gauge was originally based on how many balls the size of the bore would equal a pound. A for a 16 Gauge gun, each ball would weigh an ounce (16 balls= a pound). a 28 gauge-28 balls. The only standard shotgun bore that doesn't apply to is the 410 which is the size in inches (.410 inch diameter)
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Yes I meant increasing as in making a 12 bore/gauge shotgun into a 14 or 16 bore/gauge

I'm not sure of the characteristics but my brother-in-law said technically a one bore shotgun fired a pound of lead and he once saw or fired a boat mounted 4 bore "duck gun" (shooting 1/4th of a pound of lead shot)

So a British 12 bore shotgun fires 1/12th of a pound in lead.
 
Rich2018 said:
Yes I meant increasing as in making a 12 bore/gauge shotgun into a 14 or 16 bore/gauge

I'm not sure of the characteristics but my brother in law said technically a one bore shotgun fired a pound of lead and he once saw or fired a boat mounted 4 bore "duck gun"

So a British 12 bore shotgun fires 1/12th of a pound in lead.
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well not always but traditionally a round ball from a 12 G would be 1/12 of a pound. A normal 12G load of shot is 1 and 1/8 ounces though in the Olympics its 24 Grams or near 7/8 of an ounce and some hunting loads are heavier
 
TurtleDude said:
well not always but traditionally a round ball from a 12 G would be 1/12 of a pound. A normal 12G load of shot is 1 and 1/8 ounces though in the Olympics its 24 Grams or near 7/8 of an ounce and some hunting loads are heavier
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I wasn't sure if a 12 bore = 10 bore.

And of course you can load your ammunition how you like.

If you're in the UK though and you buy 12 bore rounds, they're supposed to be 1/12th of a pound of shot.
 
Rich2018 said:
I wasn't sure if a 12 bore = 10 bore.

And of course you can load your ammunition how you like.

If you're in the UK though and you buy 12 bore rounds, they're supposed to be 1/12th of a pound of shot.
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The English bore and the American gauge are exactly the same. As TurtleDude mentioned, "a British 12 bore shotgun fires 1/12th of a pound in lead." Both the English 12-bore and the American 12-guage have the exact same diameter barrel of 0.729" (18.53mm).

It isn't the "1/12th of a pound of shot" either. It is 12 balls made from one pound of lead. The diameter of each ball determined the bore or gauge of the barrel. To determine the internal barrel diameter the equation is:

d[SUB]n[/SUB] = 1.67 / n[SUP](1/3)[/SUP]

Where n is the number of the bore or gauge.
 
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TurtleDude said:
well not always but traditionally a round ball from a 12 G would be 1/12 of a pound. A normal 12G load of shot is 1 and 1/8 ounces though in the Olympics its 24 Grams or near 7/8 of an ounce and some hunting loads are heavier
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I think 1.125 ounces is about 1/12 of a pound isn't it ?

You would expect the Olympics to use the metric system, personally I don't think shooting events belong in the Olympics anyway.
 
Rich2018 said:
I think 1.125 ounces is about 1/12 of a pound isn't it ?

You would expect the Olympics to use the metric system, personally I don't think shooting events belong in the Olympics anyway.
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they do. 24 Grams. and Your hatred of the shooting sports is silly.
 
Glitch said:
The English bore and the American gauge are exactly the same. As TurtleDude mentioned, "a British 12 bore shotgun fires 1/12th of a pound in lead." Both the English 12-bore and the American 12-guage have the exact same diameter barrel of 0.729" (18.53mm).

It isn't the "1/12th of a pound of shot" either. It is 12 balls made from one pound of lead. The diameter of each ball determined the bore or gauge of the barrel. To determine the internal barrel diameter the equation is:

d[SUB]n[/SUB] = 1.67 / n[SUP](1/3)[/SUP]
Where n is the number of the bore or gauge.
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That was the original way of classifying the bore diameter but I think modern shotguns are just made to a standard bore size measured in inches. Until you get into back bored barrels. My Browning trap gun came with a back bored barrel. It was just slightly oversize compared to standard of .729 inches. Supposedly this gives some benefits like reduced recoil, smoother transition of the shot into the choke. It had also had a gunsmith lengthen the forcing cone on it. My opinion is those benefits are slight. What it does do is tighten up the effective choke of the barrel.
 
RF667799 said:
That was the original way of classifying the bore diameter but I think modern shotguns are just made to a standard bore size measured in inches. Until you get into back bored barrels. My Browning trap gun came with a back bored barrel. It was just slightly oversize compared to standard of .729 inches. Supposedly this gives some benefits like reduced recoil, smoother transition of the shot into the choke. It had also had a gunsmith lengthen the forcing cone on it. My opinion is those benefits are slight. What it does do is tighten up the effective choke of the barrel.
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It is certainly true that a larger barrel diameter would not only reduce recoil, but it would also severely under power the shot, dramatically reducing the range of the firearm. Presumably it was a cylinder choke, otherwise what would be the purpose of having a larger diameter barrel if you are just going to narrow it again with a choke? Using a modified or full choke would ruin any reduced recoil a larger diameter barrel might afford. It would be pointless.
 
RF667799 said:
That was the original way of classifying the bore diameter but I think modern shotguns are just made to a standard bore size measured in inches. Until you get into back bored barrels. My Browning trap gun came with a back bored barrel. It was just slightly oversize compared to standard of .729 inches. Supposedly this gives some benefits like reduced recoil, smoother transition of the shot into the choke. It had also had a gunsmith lengthen the forcing cone on it. My opinion is those benefits are slight. What it does do is tighten up the effective choke of the barrel.
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my two K 80 shotguns designed for Olympic style skeet have TULA chokes on them AKA Jug chokes.
 
Glitch said:
It is certainly true that a larger barrel diameter would not only reduce recoil, but it would also severely under power the shot, dramatically reducing the range of the firearm. Presumably it was a cylinder choke, otherwise what would be the purpose of having a larger diameter barrel if you are just going to narrow it again with a choke? Using a modified or full choke would ruin any reduced recoil a larger diameter barrel might afford. It would be pointless.
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What is back-boring?

Browning probably explains it on their website better than I can. Simply though, the bore is opened up just slightly, say from .729 to .740. There already is some tolerances in the nominal diameter between manufacturers and even between different examples of the same gun. The recoil happens in the initial "push" when the shell is fired and the shot is still accelerating down the barrel. I don't think the constriction of the choke adds any significant recoil.

No, it wasn't a cylinder choke. It had interchangeable choke tubes and what I generally used was a Briley full extended choke tube. Remember that a choke is judged by the relative difference between it and the bore of the barrel- the amount of constriction. So because the Briley was intended to give full choke effect on a standard bore gun, it may have given me something like x-tra full on my back bored browning.

This played out in casual observation when I lent that gun to a guy once, and the first thing he did was shoot the back of the traphouse courtesy of its lightened trigger. (I had warned him.) The back of the traphouse is ~14 yards from the 16 yard line. The chunk of concrete it spalled looked to be a little bigger than a softball. I liked it like that. When I was on my game it made smoke out the targets. If I started having targets that broke into 3 or 4 pieces, I knew I had to buckle down or I was going to lose one.
 
TurtleDude said:
my two K 80 shotguns designed for Olympic style skeet have TULA chokes on them AKA Jug chokes.
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I don't really know what those are.

Back in the day of all shotguns coming with fixed chokes, it was fairly common to see an add-on adjustable choke. I think some of them worked as a compensator too. I know they were ugly.
 
RF667799 said:
I don't really know what those are.

Back in the day of all shotguns coming with fixed chokes, it was fairly common to see an add-on adjustable choke. I think some of them worked as a compensator too. I know they were ugly.
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the original was called the cutts compensator. Tommy Guns used them as did many shotguns, the Russians bought one from the US team and the Tula choke was born. Designed to increase hit probability of close range skeet targets.
 
TurtleDude said:
the original was called the cutts compensator. Tommy Guns used them as did many shotguns, the Russians bought one from the US team and the Tula choke was born. Designed to increase hit probability of close range skeet targets.
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Wasn't the Cutts compensator a series of cuts/groves to the top of the muzzle, of a Tommy Gun, to allow gases out easily upward but not downward, thus forcing the barrel of the gun down and acting against "climb" as the gun is fired ?
 
TurtleDude said:
the original was called the cutts compensator. Tommy Guns used them as did many shotguns, the Russians bought one from the US team and the Tula choke was born. Designed to increase hit probability of close range skeet targets.
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Okay. It looks like it's kind of a double choke deal. The choke opens up slightly and then constricts again. Some quick reading showed me a lot of opinions that they work best with fiber wads and aren't as effective with modern shot cup wads.

"Poly-choke" was the old adjustable choke I was most familiar with. I suppose they would still be useful if you had an old fixed choke gun and wanted to make it more versatile. Damn ugly though.
 
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