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Thread: NRA turmoil creates rift among some big donors

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    Re: NRA turmoil creates rift among some big donors

    =Rich2018;1070879785]Well 100 years ago, gun ownership was restricted to hunting rifle mainly and there wasn't a perceived problem
    100 years ago I don't think owning anything was perceived as as a problem. Be it a Tommy gun or BAR or M1911. Not sure where this restricted comes from.
    I'm not sure if there were any school mass shootings back then.
    It was not unheard of just very rare. But the ones that were serious about it used dynamite.22 things you may not have known about the 1927 Bath school massacre - mlive.com

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    Re: NRA turmoil creates rift among some big donors

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Do you think that they changed from their original mission back in 1871?
    If you do, then you support the assertion that there's been mission creep.

    Is "mission creep" an emotionally laden term for you?

    Why are you being weird about this — agreeing but implying that you disagree?
    Well... I stated that their mission was to protect the second amendment.. and promote the shooting sports and safety. Which has been their mission since the 1970's

    You stated they had "mission creep".

    I did not understand that you were going back to 1871. So yes.. if you want to go back to 1871... then yes.. the NRA has changed.

    But then whats your point? You fault an organization for changing from over more than 100 years ago? Please explain.

    (sounds to me like you are now trying to walk your post backwards)

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    Re: NRA turmoil creates rift among some big donors

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    Well... I stated that their mission was to protect the second amendment.. and promote the shooting sports and safety. Which has been their mission since the 1970's
    You stated they had "mission creep".
    I did not understand that you were going back to 1871. So yes.. if you want to go back to 1871... then yes.. the NRA has changed.
    But then whats your point? You fault an organization for changing from over more than 100 years ago? Please explain.
    (sounds to me like you are now trying to walk your post backwards)
    You made a sarcastic comment about how various things the NRA does are not bad.
    I pointed out that the things you brought up are not the things people generally object to. Imho, that makes your comment some subset of a strawman. ymmv
    I also pointed out how the saddle burs for some folks all involve the more recent additions to their agendas.
    Then you started a discussion of whether or not the changes to their mission were adequately described by the term "mission creep".

    I didn't say that change was a fault of the organization.
    Instead, my post was more about how you were avoiding the likely issues of discussion when you made your statement which focused on the non-controversial aspect of the NRA's mission.

    That's really the gist of my reply to your post — you left out so many of the pertinent details that your assertion became a straw man.
    You can decide that this critique of your post is a criticism of the NRA. That is your inalienable right to believe w/e the heck melts your butter. Who's to stop you, right?
    All the same the scope of my comment was more limited than that. ymmv
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: NRA turmoil creates rift among some big donors

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickyjo View Post
    Their opposition to even studying gun violence, y.
    Well.first.. they obviously would oppose studying "gun violence"... just as the National organization of Women would oppose studying "fetal murder".. if there were right wingers in the CDC.

    First of all.. guns are not violent. etc.

    Secondly.. violence and firearms use.. is not a purview of the CDC... using a firearm is not a disease.. there is no medical connection there. So.. why would the CDC be studying it? It should be studied..and IS studied by law enforcement since its in the purview of law enforcement. Firearms are not a health issue.. they are a law enforcement issue and the NRA doesn't lobby against such research. Nor do they oppose such research...

    their being a shill for the gun industry
    Except they are not. In fact.. you really don't understand who the gun industry is and what they do. There are sections of the gun industry that would LOVE to see more firearms regulations. Because it would eliminate some of their competitors. Imagine what happens when your competitors firearm is declared an "assault rifle".. and banned..?

    heir opposition to regulations they once supported
    Well.... that's because 1. regulations went to far... 2. Many of those regulations were previously supported by a portion of members because they were directed toward minorities.
    That occurred during the 1960's... and early 1970's during the civil rights movement when in response to black folks arming themselves.. laws against concealed weapons etc.. and the stop and frisk..that went along with it. A portion of the NRA.. was okay with that because it targeted minorities. Another portion of the NRA.. was worried that regulations went to far..and would affect all gun owners. That's why the NRA had a change in the 1970's. The group that was more for gun rights no matter who was affected.. sort of won the day..and they formed the lobbying arm of the NRA.

    their reported opposition to regs their polled members support for starters.
    Yeah... that's study gets talked about a lot. But I have never met an NRA member that was for universal background checks. I would love to see how that study was done, how they decided who was "an NRA member"..and how was the questions worded.

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    Re: NRA turmoil creates rift among some big donors

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    You made a sarcastic comment about how various things the NRA does are not bad.
    I pointed out that the things you brought up are not the things people generally object to. Imho, that makes your comment some subset of a strawman. ymmv
    I also pointed out how the saddle burs for some folks all involve the more recent additions to their agendas.
    Then you started a discussion of whether or not the changes to their mission were adequately described by the term "mission creep".

    I didn't say that change was a fault of the organization.
    Instead, my post was more about how you were avoiding the likely issues of discussion when you made your statement which focused on the non-controversial aspect of the NRA's mission.

    That's really the gist of my reply to your post — you left out so many of the pertinent details that your assertion became a straw man.
    You can decide that this critique of your post is a criticism of the NRA. That is your inalienable right to believe w/e the heck melts your butter. Who's to stop you, right?
    All the same the scope of my comment was more limited than that. ymmv
    Yeah... this is the part where you walk back your comments.

    AGain… what is controversial.. about their mission? Which is gun safety..and protecting the second amendment?

    The only mission creep they have had in over 100 years. is that they added lobbying to protect the second amendment. So..whats controversial about protecting the second amendment?

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    Re: NRA turmoil creates rift among some big donors

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    Actually that's EXACTLY What it does now. The NRA is still the preeminent organization for gun safety.. training safety instructors.. supporting safe shooting sports and safe gun ranges.
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    Re: NRA turmoil creates rift among some big donors

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    Yeah... this is the part where you walk back your comments.
    AGain… what is controversial.. about their mission? Which is gun safety..and protecting the second amendment?
    The only mission creep they have had in over 100 years. is that they added lobbying to protect the second amendment. So..whats controversial about protecting the second amendment?
    You're big on that strawman stuff.

    If you are actually curious about which things people find objectionable, you can use this link:

    I don't know exactly what all is on the list, but I'm pretty sure I've never heard anyone ever object to gun safety courses etc.
    I have heard people make objections to the NRA's lobbying efforts though.
    I think I may have mentioned that already. ymmv


    Are you quite sure I'm walking back my comments?
    Have you considered the possibility that you are just becoming more aware that the words I posted did not mean what you previously thought they meant?
    jaq
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: NRA turmoil creates rift among some big donors

    Quote Originally Posted by zsu2357 View Post
    ....not sure where this restricted comes from...
    The type of guns open to general supply 100 years ago...and no in 1919 it didn't include the BAR or Thompson sub machine gun




    ...it was not unheard of just very rare. But the ones that were serious about it used dynamite.

    Was dynamite available to the general public or was it banned.

    Today I'm not sure but I think private individuals are banned from owning dynamite.

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    Re: NRA turmoil creates rift among some big donors

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich2018 View Post
    The type of guns open to general supply 100 years ago...and no in 1919 it didn't include the BAR or Thompson sub machine gun

    Was dynamite available to the general public or was it banned.

    Today I'm not sure but I think private individuals are banned from owning dynamite.
    Actually, it did include the BAR and Thompson sunmachine gun. That BAR was developed in 1917 and put into production in 1918. The M1918 BAR did see some action in WW I, but only at the very end. The Thompson submachine prototypes were created in 1918 and shipped to Europe two days after WW I had ended, but would not be put into production until 1921.

    The BAR would eventually be replaced by the M60 in 1957.

    Private citizens are not banned from owning dynamite, or any other explosive.

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    Re: NRA turmoil creates rift among some big donors

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    You're big on that strawman stuff.

    If you are actually curious about which things people find objectionable, you can use this link:

    I don't know exactly what all is on the list, but I'm pretty sure I've never heard anyone ever object to gun safety courses etc.
    I have heard people make objections to the NRA's lobbying efforts though.
    I think I may have mentioned that already. ymmv


    Are you quite sure I'm walking back my comments?
    Have you considered the possibility that you are just becoming more aware that the words I posted did not mean what you previously thought they meant?
    jaq
    Yeah..you are walking back your comments.

    And I never made a strawman argument. You however seem to be making up new arguments as you go along.

    Have a nice day.

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