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Thread: Gun Control Hypocrisy

  1. #11
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    Re: Gun Control Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Why we even have a sentence of LWOP is puzzling - what possible purpose is served by caging someone forever at great expense and using the resulting "prison overcrowding" as reason to allow (most or all?) lesser (at present) criminals to roam freely among us to claim more victims?
    Because while justice should be as simple as a $1.25 bullet to the back of the head two days after conviction, lawyers and politicians drunk on self-virtue have inflated the costs of executing a man into the millions or tens of millions of dollars. The appeals process can drag on for decades. Hence locking a man in a cage for 60 years at $90K per year, despite costing $5.4M, is actually the cheaper option.

    But I do feel your pain. It would be nice to live in a society where justice was actually just--a life for a life. And I can only imagine the number of lives that could be saved using $5.4M, properly employed.

  2. #12
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    Re: Gun Control Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by swing_voter View Post
    What's wrong with some common sense regulation?

    For example: you have to secure your guns when not using them. This is to keep guns out of the hands of children and make it more difficult for burglars to steal. Burglars get around the armed home owner thing by waiting for when the house is unoccupied.
    but people who scream for "common sense" gun laws almost never want laws that actually punish criminals. Rather they want to criminalize someone who has a gun stolen or if a friend lends a guy his gun without a background check

    COMMON SENSE-punishing objectively harmful behavior as opposed to banning 20 round magazines or semi auto rifles
    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Yeah; a shotgun IS a rifle; it uses a different load.
    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    You know that Reagan signed the Brady Bill - right?
    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    The only "sport" that most gun owners participate in is suicide or murder.

  3. #13
    Educator COTO's Avatar
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    Re: Gun Control Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bum View Post
    In 2009 The US Dept of Justice IG report noted a 35% error rate on the watch list....As of June 2016, the Watch List is estimated to contain over 2,484,442 records, consisting of 1,877,133 individual identities

    Thats a lot of people wrongly placed on the list.
    I don't know what the standards are for the US DoJ watch list.

    I agree that a 35% error rate is totally unacceptable for a law that would abridge a Constitutional right. Even 3.5% would be pushing it. But "reg flag" laws could, in theory, be proscribed in such a way as to have an acceptable error rate.

    As I say, flags "based on physical evidence or the testimony of two or more witnesses, pertaining to death threats and/or grievous physical assaults" would be sufficient. This isn't because I believe all but 3.5% of all such flagged individuals will go onto murder somebody, but because somebody committing assaults and issuing death threats has advertised either i) true homicidal intent, or ii) egregious lack of self-control. Either is sufficient to justify revoking his access to arms that can kill people with the twitch of a finger. At least for a period of a decade.

    I'll eat my hat if 35% of "red flagged" persons got erroneously put on the list based on this standard.
    Last edited by COTO; 11-08-19 at 11:25 AM.

  4. #14
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    Re: Gun Control Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    but people who scream for "common sense" gun laws almost never want laws that actually punish criminals.
    Has to do with this concept of "preventing gun murders". Punishing them after the fact as priority #1 is the dumbest thing I've read this month on the forum.

    "almost never"? That's some strong language.

  5. #15
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    Re: Gun Control Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by COTO View Post
    Because while justice should be as simple as a $1.25 bullet to the back of the head two days after conviction, lawyers and politicians drunk on self-virtue have inflated the costs of executing a man into the millions or tens of millions of dollars. The appeals process can drag on for decades. Hence locking a man in a cage for 60 years at $90K per year, despite costing $5.4M, is actually the cheaper option.

    But I do feel your pain. It would be nice to live in a society where justice was actually just--a life for a life. And I can only imagine the number of lives that could be saved using $5.4M, properly employed.
    I understand completely the valid concerns over the possibility, no matter how remote, of executing an innocent convict. However, the type of facility required to house LWOP prisoners should be a far more austere environment (e.g. no visitors except their lawyer, no entertainment halls/gyms and no snacks/commissary) than that required to "rehabilitate" prisoners who are intended for (eventual) release.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  6. #16
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    Re: Gun Control Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    but people who scream for "common sense" gun laws almost never want laws that actually punish criminals. Rather they want to criminalize someone who has a gun stolen or if a friend lends a guy his gun without a background check

    COMMON SENSE-punishing objectively harmful behavior as opposed to banning 20 round magazines or semi auto rifles
    [emphasis added by bubba to make a point]

    your misrepresentation of the motives of those seeking reasonable gun control is nothing but bull ****
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    “I cannot tell a lie.” ~George Washington. “I cannot tell the truth.” ~Donald Trump. "I cannot tell the difference." ~Republicans 45<44

  7. #17
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    Re: Gun Control Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by COTO View Post
    I don't know what the standards are for the US DoJ watch list.

    I agree that a 35% error rate is totally unacceptable for a law that would abridge a Constitutional right. Even 3.5% would be pushing it. But "reg flag" laws could, in theory, be proscribed in such a way as to have an acceptable error rate.

    As I say, flags "based on physical evidence or the testimony of two or more witnesses, pertaining to death threats and/or grievous physical assaults" would be sufficient. This isn't because I believe all but 3.5% of all such flagged individuals will go onto murder somebody, but because somebody committing assaults and issuing death threats has advertised either i) true homicidal intent, or ii) egregious lack of self-control. Either is sufficient to justify revoking his access to arms that can kill people with the twitch of a finger. At least for a period of a decade.

    I'll eat my hat if 35% of "red flagged" persons got erroneously put on the list based on this standard.
    The problem with that plan is that if someone is really that "extremely dangerous" then why remove only their 2A rights? How hard do you imagine it to be for a "prohibited person" to get a gun or other lethal weapon illegally if you "know" that they are "extremely dangerous"? After all, the Sandy Hook "mass shooter" killed his own mother to get the gun(s) that he "needed".
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  8. #18
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    Re: Gun Control Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bum View Post
    I have often commented on the anti Second Amendment crowds repeated attempts to erode the RTKBA, and at the same time there appears to be no attempt to stiffen existing laws ( or even use them in some cases) to make firearms violators pay a harsher price for thier crimes rather than the current "catch and release" that seems to be so prevalent.

    The links below are, sadly, not uncommon.....another repeat firearm offender is slapped on the hand and released; sometimes simply to kill again.

    Another known wolf: Repeat gun felon let out of prison kills corrections officer - Conservative Review

    But wait, there's more: Judge gave sweetheart bail agreement to man who served 8 years for federal gun violation |

    Police oppose probation sentence given to buyer of gun used to kill Kerrie Orozco | Crime & Courts | omaha.com

    Lake City Man Charged With Being a Felon in Possession of a Gun, Habitual Offender - 9 & 10 News

    Repeat felon shot in Grand Rapids faces prison for third gun offense | wzzm13.com

    https://cwbchicago.com/2019/06/repea...-bail-for.html

    But, we really want to make our streets safer, so lets make it harder for the law abiding citizens to exercise thier Second Amendment right...not punish the actual criminals.


    I have had this conversation with others in the forum....thier reply generally ran from "thats racist" to "Its too expensive to put criminals in prison".

    So, we are all agreed its cheaper to shred the Second Amendment than it is to actually hold the criminals accountable? We should be pandering to the thugs on the street because that is the "easier option"?

    The below links have led me to conclude there is no hope of having a rational discussion about criminal justice reform vs restricting the Second Amendment.....many here seem to favor Red Flag laws; removing a citizens firearms if that person is thought to be a danger.

    Well, some politicians thought so as well....those that proposed the red flag laws.

    Unless you are a gang member....nope, we cant have gang members on the red flag list.

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...-red-flag-laws

    https://hotair.com/archives/jazz-sha...-gang-members/

    https://www.ammoland.com/2019/09/dem...#axzz64h2mQ7zh

    https://www.independentsentinel.com/...ang-databases/

    https://patriotforamerica.com/2019/0...-gang-members/

    https://nationalfile.com/democrats-w...-gang-members/

    https://www.westernjournal.com/democ...ang-databases/

    Clearly the people behind the push for these laws, and those that oppose harsher prison terms seem to have an agenda that has nothing to do with making the streets safer.
    Will you agree to double your taxes to keep violent felons in jail forever?

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    Re: Gun Control Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I understand completely the valid concerns over the possibility, no matter how remote, of executing an innocent convict. However, the type of facility required to house LWOP prisoners should be a far more austere environment (e.g. no visitors except their lawyer, no entertainment halls/gyms and no snacks/commissary) than that required to "rehabilitate" prisoners who are intended for (eventual) release.
    I favor banishment

  10. #20
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    Re: Gun Control Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by vegas giants View Post
    I favor banishment
    Hmm... like those who were deported 4 or 5 times? Where, exactly, should they be banished to?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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