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The number of concealed handgun permits has increased for the third year in a row.

Chillfolks said:
In my state there is no fingerprints required....
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We are, name, age and sex are irrelevant


...I oppose the registration mainly because it is the first step in a confiscation program. I also oppose it because when, not if but when, the registration system is hacked and posted online gun owners will be targeted for more crimes and harassment against them....
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A national registration would make it easier for subsequent confiscation but in the short term it would vastly assist law enforcement in investigating a crime.


TurtleDude claims some background in the legal system and has actually denied that such a national registration would be beneficial to law enforcement
Do you agree ?

You concerns over the security of the information are valid however


...I would be willing to entertain the idea of a National Gun licensing program that acts as a CCP recognized in all 50 states. One would need to be licensed to purchase a firearm, but not register what if any guns they own.
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The issue of federal involvement in the issue of licencing would be hotly opposed by the states.

I've often though a national driver's license was a common step approach though.
 
Rich2018 said:
We are, name, age and sex are irrelevant




A national registration would make it easier for subsequent confiscation but in the short term it would vastly assist law enforcement in investigating a crime.


TurtleDude claims some background in the legal system and has actually denied that such a national registration would be beneficial to law enforcement
Do you agree ?

You concerns over the security of the information are valid however





The issue of federal involvement in the issue of licencing would be hotly opposed by the states.

I've often though a national driver's license was a common step approach though.
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I don't know of it would or wouldn't help. However there waa a story a year ot two ago about a clerk in FL not running people's background checks because they had forgotten their password. Because of stories like this and knowing the human error aspect involved in such a system I lean more to it having a very minimal effect in aiding law enforcement. As it stands now the negatives out way any positives to back any sort of national registration.
 
Chillfolks said:
I don't know of it would or wouldn't help. However there waa a story a year ot two ago about a clerk in FL not running people's background checks because they had forgotten their password. Because of stories like this and knowing the human error aspect involved in such a system I lean more to it having a very minimal effect in aiding law enforcement. As it stands now the negatives out way any positives to back any sort of national registration.
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Yes, clearly any national gun registration scheme would have to be professionally run.


Btw it's "outweigh"
 
Rich2018 said:
Yes, clearly any national gun registration scheme would have to be professionally run.


Btw it's "outweigh"
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Thanks teach, the security concerns and confiscation talk make any national scheme a none starter.
 
TurtleDude said:
...quoting a gun banning organization that advocates registration as a tool to help ban or confiscate guns is hilarious....
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And that includes the ATF web site in your hilarity ?

Accept it, a national gun registration database would greatly aid law enforcement.

Do you need more examples or are you sticking to your stupid claim...why don't you quote a police officer who says such a database would offer no real help in fighting crime ?


...the ATF would go to gun shops and demand to review 4473s. They would copy or photo 4473s where the firearm being purchases was one of the ones that was subject to the clinton gun ban (prior purchases). They would then claim that those firearms were traced more than non-banned weapons. There was no crime involved in those weapons, they were just creating statistics to fluff the clinton administration.
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Good that's what they are supposed to do.
 
Chillfolks said:
Thanks teach, the security concerns and confiscation talk make any national scheme a none starter.
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There's no "e" when writing "non starter" I'm sorry but I just can't help it...

I dunno, I get the feeling such a national database has sufficient support and wouldn't violate any Constitutional clause or amendment.
 
Rich2018 said:
There's no "e" when writing "non starter" I'm sorry but I just can't help it...

I dunno, I get the feeling such a national database has sufficient support and wouldn't violate any Constitutional clause or amendment.
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I would disagree on the violating the constitution. Either way it would be a long messy court battle.
 
Rich2018 said:
And that includes the ATF web site in your hilarity ?

Accept it, a national gun registration database would greatly aid law enforcement.

Do you need more examples or are you sticking to your stupid claim...why don't you quote a police officer who says such a database would offer no real help in fighting crime ?




Good that's what they are supposed to do.
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no it isn't because they had no probable cause-which is why they got their asses handed to them.

BTW stuff that makes things easier for cops would include

1) no fourth amendment-warrant, we don't need no stinkin warrant

2) Gideon. Hey if you cannot afford counsel, too frigging bad, you have to defend yourself pro se

3) Miranda? what's that, anything you say can be used against you and we won't tell you

4) what's wrong with beating confessions out of defendants? we don't 'arrest innocent people

4a: if we arrest you, you need to prove you are innocent. we only arrest the guilty


Sorry, making things easier for cops doesn't trump our constitution: and unlike the above examples, registration doesn't have any track record of diminishing violent crimes. Not in Hawaii, not in Canada
 
Rich2018 said:
Why do gun owners resist mandatory registration of guns but accept being finger printed for a concealed carry license ?

At least you're finger printed in Georgia.
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Where do you get the idea that they dont resist licensing as well? Just because theyre forced to jump through hoops, doesnt mean they like them. Plus theres millions of people right now driving around with concealed guns they dont have licenses for. Criminals aint care.
 
TurtleDude said:
BTW stuff that makes things easier for cops would include

1) no fourth amendment-warrant, we don't need no stinkin warrant
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See the Patriot Act, it allows just that

2) Gideon. Hey if you cannot afford counsel, too frigging bad, you have to defend yourself
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Public defenders don't give a damn anyway and will usually plea bargain...that helps the DA but not so much the police


3) Miranda? what's that, anything you say can be used against you and we won't tell you
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No it's "can be taken down and used in evidence" - not necessarily against YOU

(you've been watching too much TV)



4) what's wrong with beating confessions out of defendants? we don't 'arrest innocent people
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A plea bargain is basically a coerced confession.


if we arrest you, you need to prove you are innocent. we only arrest the guilty
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People, in the US criminal justice system, are innocent until being proven guilty.
But not inanimate objects, they're guilty until proven innocent.
Justice systems in other countries are different, in France they have an "Inquisitorial" system of justice where you can be deemed guilty until proven innocent. But they reject to concept of juries and counselors, preferring to examine witnesses through the judges.

I think the French system is better than the US "Adversarial" system of justice with expensive lawyers.

If I was guilty I'd want a jury and an expensive, slick lawyer. If I was innocent, there's no way I'd want a jury.


...Sorry, making things easier for cops doesn't trump our constitution..
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So you equate giving the police an investigation tool like a firearms database to be the equivalent of cheating the Constitution and illegally ignoring rights ?
 
jonny5 said:
The 2nd prevents it. If I can not bear arms without govt approval, that is infringement.
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Not so.

Local authorities can take your guns away if you don't comply with legislation like storage etc

Your right to bear arms can also be taken away if you abuse your rights like wave your gun at someone in a road rage incident. Refusal to comply with a national database "census" could be viewed as a similar legal violation.
 
jonny5 said:
Where do you get the idea that they dont resist licensing as well? Just because theyre forced to jump through hoops, doesnt mean they like them. Plus theres millions of people right now driving around with concealed guns they dont have licenses for. Criminals aint care.
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Yes and criminals are caught every day driving without a license

Are you suggesting we don't has laws because they won't be observed ?
 
TurtleDude said:
federal government has no proper power to do so
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Why not ?

The federal government issues a census form asking for far more data than a simple head count.

Not forgetting the American Community Survey - where's the Constitutional authority for that ?

Or federal laws about pollution and emission controls ?
 
Rich2018 said:
See the Patriot Act, it allows just that



Public defenders don't give a damn anyway and will usually plea bargain...that helps the DA but not so much the police





No it's "can be taken down and used in evidence" - not necessarily against YOU

(you've been watching too much TV)






A plea bargain is basically a coerced confession.




People, in the US criminal justice system, are innocent until being proven guilty.
But not inanimate objects, they're guilty until proven innocent.
Justice systems in other countries are different, in France they have an "Inquisitorial" system of justice where you can be deemed guilty until proven innocent. But they reject to concept of juries and counselors, preferring to examine witnesses through the judges.

I think the French system is better than the US "Adversarial" system of justice with expensive lawyers.

If I was guilty I'd want a jury and an expensive, slick lawyer. If I was innocent, there's no way I'd want a jury.





So you equate giving the police an investigation tool like a firearms database to be the equivalent of cheating the Constitution and illegally ignoring rights ?
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you're a gun banner

you want registration

QED
 
Rich2018 said:
Why not ?

The federal government issues a census form asking for far more data than a simple head count.

Not forgetting the American Community Survey - where's the Constitutional authority for that ?

Or federal laws about pollution and emission controls ?
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that the federal government violates the tenth amendment constantly is no justification for other violations
 
Rich2018 said:
Not so.

Local authorities can take your guns away if you don't comply with legislation like storage etc

Your right to bear arms can also be taken away if you abuse your rights like wave your gun at someone in a road rage incident. Refusal to comply with a national database "census" could be viewed as a similar legal violation.
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Just because the govt ignores the law, doesnt make the law invalid. It says what it says. Shall not be infringed. However, rights can be suspended to protect other rights, or to punish people. But gun registration doesnt do this. It has no benefit to constitutional rights.
 
Rich2018 said:
Yes and criminals are caught every day driving without a license

Are you suggesting we don't has laws because they won't be observed ?
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Im suggesting that people DO resist licensing laws. You said they dont.
 
Rich2018 said:
Not so.

Local authorities can take your guns away if you don't comply with legislation like storage etc

Your right to bear arms can also be taken away if you abuse your rights like wave your gun at someone in a road rage incident. Refusal to comply with a national database "census" could be viewed as a similar legal violation.
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Only if doing so would not have required self-incrimination. The problem with mandatory gun registration is that it must exempt prohibited persons.
 
Rich2018 said:
Yes and criminals are caught every day driving without a license

Are you suggesting we don't has laws because they won't be observed ?
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We already have laws making it a crime for a prohibited person to possess any gun.
 
Can one get a permit without owning a gun? I want a CCWP, just because.
 
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