• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

— So Police Take Away All His Guns and License to Carry

I wasn't in Afghanistan but that's irrelevant. Did you see any pop up targets during the training you go on about? The context was military training being purported to make soldiers more of an authority than civilians on weapon matters.

We didn't have pop-up targets in the Marine Corps. Every target was 6' tall and 6' wide made from paper in a wooden frame. Marines would pull down a target after each shot, mark where the shot hit the target, and raise the target again so that the shot can be scored. They also used three different types of targets, depending on range.

Targets.jpg

Those who served in the military only have a marginally better understanding of firearms than those civilians who have never handled a firearm before. They are by no means experts. Nor does the military teach firearm safety. All of their so-called "safety" precautions are meant to keep control of their property, not to provide for anyone's safety.

I had been hunting for 10 years prior to joining the Marine Corps and I can honestly say the Marine Corps did make me a better shot. However, other than giving me an education on the workings of the M-16, M-60, and M1911, I cannot say the Marine Corps taught me anything new about firearms that I didn't know before. I also had my private firearms with me on base. I had to keep them locked up in the Armory, of course, but I had access to them any time I wanted them.
 
No hate involved but I don't agree.

As an advocate of individuals having ALL rights restored when someone has completed time for any crime they may have been convicted of, I can hardly agree with an individual who hasn't even been convicted of a crime suffer any "taking of property."

Hell, I don't agree with any requirement to have a permit.

All this does is serve as a warning to other gun owners NOT to report a lost or stolen weapon.

Heya, Cap'n. Gonna respond to yours, since you can be counted on not to take off heads...this is a rather touchy subject as we all know... I always begin these saying I believe in responsible gun ownership and sincere self scrutiny. I also have no desire to impose Canada's gun regs on anyone else, but have no problem them with them for us.

Ok, that out of the way. The guy broke the law. Whether or not we agree with the law is irrelevant. The law is the law, and responsible gun owners always say that they do not break the law as a cornerstone of why they should not be harassed by people wishing to amend the constitution, or impose further gun control measures.

With that in mind, how do you think the optics look to those the pro gun crowd are trying to convince, when people rail against this guy being held to the law, which pro gun folks say they respect?

In all honesty, I would expect a "smh" reaction from you guys...by not following the law, this guy gave ammo to the anti gun crowd (excuse the unintentional pun), as do the folks who will now speak against the laws being upheld. I know that the vast majority of gun owners wouldn't have made this mistake. Why are so many trying to excuse this guy for doing so?

Side note: I absolutely agree with your last sentence. This is not a well thought out law, in my opinion. But it is the law...I'm guessing you wouldn't be in support of everyone only following the laws they agree with...
 
No it's not.

Why is there no requirement to lock your car away ?

because you can easily open a car with a screwdriver and a brick
 
Speak for yourself and the military you served in.

The military I served in was obsessed with gun safety.

Probably not obsessed with marksmanship though.
 
which branch did you serve with. I deal with former military constantly. The guy who runs the range counter where I shoot did two tours with the infantry in Iraq. Most of those in the military these days don't see combat and don't shoot daily or even weekly.

Which doesn’t change the fact that they are trained throughly on proper and safe use of firearms as part of basic training. But if you want to use combat service as a criteria for using firearms let’s go for it. Somehow I doubt you’ll be too happy about that though :lamo

Random schmucks who run around the woods playing dress up haven’t seen any combat.
 
Which doesn’t change the fact that they are trained throughly on proper and safe use of firearms as part of basic training. But if you want to use combat service as a criteria for using firearms let’s go for it. Somehow I doubt you’ll be too happy about that though :lamo

Random schmucks who run around the woods playing dress up haven’t seen any combat.

So you are of the school that thinks military use of firearms is the same as civilian self defense with firearms?
 
Heya, Cap'n. Gonna respond to yours, since you can be counted on not to take off heads...this is a rather touchy subject as we all know... I always begin these saying I believe in responsible gun ownership and sincere self scrutiny. I also have no desire to impose Canada's gun regs on anyone else, but have no problem them with them for us.

I appreciate this intro. Some of our peers don't see my Forum participation in that way, and that is unfortunate. So thank you. :)

Ok, that out of the way. The guy broke the law. Whether or not we agree with the law is irrelevant. The law is the law, and responsible gun owners always say that they do not break the law as a cornerstone of why they should not be harassed by people wishing to amend the constitution, or impose further gun control measures.

True, one can argue that the law is the law, while also recognizing laws can be unjust. In my lifetime there were laws allowing segregation, forbidding interracial marriage, limiting access to voting. All sorts of laws against same-sex relationships and sexual interaction between consenting adults. I could go on and on.

In such cases, when a law is unjust on its face, opposition may arise. When a law is considered unconstitutional it often results in civil disobedience. At least that's been the history in our country.

However, that is not the issue in this situation. At least not entirely.

With that in mind, how do you think the optics look to those the pro gun crowd are trying to convince, when people rail against this guy being held to the law, which pro gun folks say they respect?
In all honesty, I would expect a "smh" reaction from you guys...by not following the law, this guy gave ammo to the anti gun crowd (excuse the unintentional pun), as do the folks who will now speak against the laws being upheld. I know that the vast majority of gun owners wouldn't have made this mistake. Why are so many trying to excuse this guy for doing so?

The law is too harsh. It is unjust.

I would have no problem with the gentleman being fined. What I don't agree with is depriving him of his Constitutional rights when he was robbed. The gun was not in the open, the car door was closed if not locked. The vehicle was entered illegally, the glovebox opened as a part of that illegal act. His property was stolen. Would the locked glove compartment have made much difference? They are not made to be secure from forced entry. Even the police in the report say a locked glove box is no deterrent.

The result of this act, which was honestly reported by the "victim" was his own loss of permit, seizure of his property, arrest and facing fines and possible imprisonment.

The fact that his State has this draconian law coupled with a requirement to register and permit for weapons proves how dangerous the idea of “reasonable gun control” is. It literally allows the State to deprive a citizen of his Constitutional right to keep and bear arms and to seize all arms in his possession. THAT is why we are "up in arms" over it.

Side note: I absolutely agree with your last sentence. This is not a well thought out law, in my opinion. But it is the law...I'm guessing you wouldn't be in support of everyone only following the laws they agree with...

Well, I am not an advocate of common criminality, so I typically support the law.

However, I will leave you with this last point. Recall that every revolutionary is a criminal unless and until they win their revolution. Our George Washington would have hung if our Revolution had failed. IMO laws like this one must be opposed because they show how unreasonable "reasonable gun control laws" really are.
 
Last edited:
Speak for yourself and the military you served in.

The military I served in was obsessed with gun safety.

Their idea of firearm safety in the military is to "point the weapon down range." They don't give a damn about firearm safety. The military is only concerned about keeping control of their property, and couldn't care less about actual firearm safety. Those who hunt know more about firearm safety than those who served in the military ever will.
 
Their idea of firearm safety in the military is to "point the weapon down range." They don't give a damn about firearm safety. The military is only concerned about keeping control of their property, and couldn't care less about actual firearm safety. Those who hunt know more about firearm safety than those who served in the military ever will.

I saw the odd ND in the army, I never saw anyone shot on a range though.


I've read of more than a few hunting accidents.


A British prince once shot a beater.
 
I saw the odd ND in the army, I never saw anyone shot on a range though.


I've read of more than a few hunting accidents.


A British prince once shot a beater.

We've also had a Vice President shoot a lawyer (who survived) while hunting. There are lots of hunting accidents. There are also a lot more hunters than the personnel in all the military branches combined. Nevertheless, that is where you will find firearm safety practiced more than you will in the military. I only served 8 years in the military, but I have been hunting for 57 years.

The military doesn't teach you to hand your firearm to one of your team, or setting your firearm aside before crossing an obstacle. They don't even teach you to keep the muzzle free from debris. Another key factor in firearm safety is knowing the trajectory of the round before pulling the trigger. Something the military completely ignores.

The military does teach you to unload your firearm before handing to another, after a fashion. They call it "Inspection Arms" and it is only performed while in formation during a marching drill, but at least they check to ensure the firearm is unloaded before handing the firearm to the individual performing the inspection. I don't think they consider that "safety training" however.
 
Last edited:
Teach that guy to call the police. NEVER call the police. NEVER open YOURSELF up to a law enforcement investigation.

What is especially troubling to me about this story and others like it is how these laws are designed to criminalize otherwise law abiding citizens as what often ends up being a pretext to take away their rights. Sure he screwed up, he should have remembered to take his gun out of his car. But it wasn't like he left it Starbucks restroom like a recent chief of police in California that did not lose her job. Or what of the cop who's gun was left in his car, stolen, and then used in San Francisco to kill Kate Steinle by a so called "undocumented immigrant"? Was that cop treated like a felon?

This man was a VICTIM of a burglary, he didn't threaten anyone with his gun, didn't use it in a crime, so why make him into a felon? His absentmindedness isn't even as willfully dangerous as any thousands of people texting and driving in their cars. A car---- a DANGEROUS killing machine being willfully used in that situation in a criminal manner.

Like I said, NEVER call the police in a situation like this. When or if you finally do report a gun missing by legal requirement, be very sparse in details. "Officer, I went to get my unloaded trigger locked gun from my gun safe and it was missing. I have no idea what happened to it--- could not even guess--- but it is missing."

For all of those calling the gun owner a law breaker--- well guess what--- even if he hadn't left the gun unattended overnight technically he would be guilty of the SAME crime had he backed his car out of the garage to go to work with his gun (legally possessed) in his glove box--- and then gotten out of the car to close his garage door.... and someone stole his car. Same felony offense, cops would treat him the exact same way as leaving the gun in the car overnight.
 
Man Reports His Pistol Stolen — So Police Take Away All His Guns and License to Carry
By Pluralist | Oct 4, 2019

"A Connecticut man had his pistol permit and firearms seized by authorities after he reported the theft of one of his guns on Monday. Officers responded on Tuesday to a report of car burglary made by Christopher Jerome, 26, the New Haven Register reported. He told police that, believing he would get back into the vehicle shortly, he didn’t lock his car doors after parking on Monday evening. Jerome said the next day he discovered his pistol had been lifted from the car’s unlocked glove box and the driver’s side door was open.

Police arrested Jerome on a reckless endangerment charge.

Under a recently implemented state law, police then entered Jerome’s home and removed the rest of his firearms: a Glock, another handgun and an AR-15.

The new law, which took effect on Oct. 1, prohibits storing a handgun in an unattended motor vehicle if it is not in the trunk, a locked safe or a locked glove box. Authorities also seized his pistol permit, which according to one police official, will likely be revoked. Capt. Richard Conklin told The Register the state believes storing a firearm in a car – even a locked car – is not “a prudent thing to do.” “A car is like a glass box. If you take out any of the windows, it is no longer locked,” Conklin said. He also said small safes shouldn’t be an option either since they can be easily taken out of vehicles.

Jerome has been released after posting a $1,000 bond.
"

Text of the new law.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, secure your guns or you won't have any guns to worry about anymore. I support this law and would like it to be a Federal regulation. It's one of the few gun control policies I support because it can actually improve safety and doesn't undermine the RKBA.

Queue the hate, it changes nothing.

Sleepyazz Americans see no danger or problem with creepy corrupt democrats cheating, lying, stealing and otherwise criminally seizing political power for selfish wicked reasons. Democrats are not in the business to serve the American people. They are determined to seize power for themselves at the expense of everything good in America.

Fake Mexican Pete said, "Hell yes, we are going to take away your guns." He fell and no longer has a chance to gain power himself, but his dummass gun-grabbing wicked proposals live on. Democrat governors, like post abortionist baby killer Northam, fully intend to enact state laws designed to take away American freedoms and rights as they strengthen government power and control over the disarmed 'proletariat.'
 
...the military doesn't teach you to hand your firearm to one of your team, or setting your firearm aside before crossing an obstacle. They don't even teach you to keep the muzzle free from debris. Another key factor in firearm safety is knowing the trajectory of the round before pulling the trigger. Something the military completely ignores....

The military branch I served in was very interested in mud and debris stuck in the muzzle...I know because I fell foul of this in training.

We were also taught about the round still climbing well past the half way mark and wind adjustment.

Do you actually need to complete any training at all for a hunting license where you live ?

I was told that a dropped and horizontally fired round takes the same amount of time to fall to Earth, something that took me a while to believe.

...the military does teach you to unload your firearm before handing to another, after a fashion. They call it "Inspection Arms" and it is only performed while in formation during a marching drill, but at least they check to ensure the firearm is unloadedefore handing the firearm to the individual performing the inspection. I don't think they consider that "safety training" however.


In the military I served in, we called it a "make safe" and could be ordered at any time. A complete unload, followed by a load.
 
The military branch I served in was very interested in mud and debris stuck in the muzzle...I know because I fell foul of this in training.
I would be willing to wager that it was the more experienced people in your unit telling you keep your muzzle clear and holding you accountable in that regard, because you won't find it in any Army manual.

We were also taught about the round still climbing well past the half way mark and wind adjustment.
Then you were taught more than most. Ballistics is not a topic usually referred to in basic training.

Do you actually need to complete any training at all for a hunting license where you live ?
Of course not. Do they require you to pass a grammar test before being allowed to post online where you live?

I was told that a dropped and horizontally fired round takes the same amount of time to fall to Earth, something that took me a while to believe.
Galileo Galilei demonstrated that principle ~500 years ago. They even demonstrated that principle on the moon: YouTube

Again, that is not a topic typically taught in military basic training. They will explain elevation and windage for the purposes of adjusting the sights, but it is uncommon for the military to touch on ballistics.
 
I would be willing to wager that it was the more experienced people in your unit telling you keep your muzzle clear and holding you accountable in that regard, because you won't find it in any Army manual....

Assistant to the drill sergeant.


...then you were taught more than most. Ballistics is not a topic usually referred to in basic training....

We had lots of "dry" classes before we even touched a rifle.

I still remember the principles of marksmanship and how to give a fire control order.

If you didn't clear a weapon properly before handing it to a drill corporal, you were on fatigues for a while - at least


...do they require you to pass a grammar test before being allowed to post online where you live?

Didn't think so...if I went out hunting with the "hunters" I see in the Bass Pro Shop here, I'd be wearing bright orange not camouflage.


...Galileo Galilei demonstrated that principle ~500 years ago....

Oh I get it now but for a young kid, it didn't seem to resonate.



...again, that is not a topic typically taught in military basic training. They will explain elevation and windage for the purposes of adjusting the sights, but it is uncommon for the military to touch on ballistics.

An incident happened a few years before me where a missed shot of 7.62mm actually hit and killed a women in her own home a couple of miles away or so we were told.

They explained the projected leap up of the foresight upon firing. I thought shooting would be the fun part in basic...it was actually the part I hated most because of the safety and drills....and the near obsession in cleaning off the carbon afterwards. One guy had a brother in the army and got him a spare gas plug which saved him an age of time.

I came to the conclusion that shooting guns doesn't wear them out, cleaning them does.
 
We had lots of "dry" classes before we even touched a rifle.
Rifle training and qualification is performed during the Second Phase of Marine Corps boot camp. The first few days are spent in the classroom teaching you about the firearm. Then drills on how to properly hold the firearm and fasten the sling to make the weapon stable. After about a week we were allowed to fire our first live round. The Range Officer did indeed practice firearm safety and ensured everyone else did as well, otherwise they would pay the consequences. But until that point, there was never any discussion or instruction about firearm safety.

Didn't think so...if I went out hunting with the "hunters" I see in the Bass Pro Shop here, I'd be wearing bright orange not camouflage.
I'm definitely in day-glow orange when I shoot caribou. I don't really call that hunting though since there is no skill involved. I'm too old to hunt moose by myself, so I always hunt with a partner. If I have never hunted with them before I make certain that we meet at the range first. I tell them it is to zero our rifles, but I'm actually checking out their firearm handling and safety skills at the same time. Hopefully they are using the opportunity to study me as well.

An incident happened a few years before me where a missed shot of 7.62mm actually hit and killed a women in her own home a couple of miles away or so we were told.
Exactly. Even a .22 rim-fire round could travel as far as a mile before falling to the ground. I also avoid shooting any target if there is water in the background because of ricochets. The very first rule of moose hunting is to never shoot a moose standing in water. At 1,200 to 1,400 pounds, you are cleaning them where they drop. You have no choice in the matter, unless you have a rig big enough to haul them out.

They explained the projected leap up of the foresight upon firing. I thought shooting would be the fun part in basic...it was actually the part I hated most because of the safety and drills....and the near obsession in cleaning off the carbon afterwards. One guy had a brother in the army and got him a spare gas plug which saved him an age of time.

I came to the conclusion that shooting guns doesn't wear them out, cleaning them does.
I enjoyed the firearm qualification part, because I noticed improvement in my shooting. I had been hunting since I was 8 years old, and I considered myself to be an average shot. Not great, but not bad either. I would bring home a pheasant or two after a day of hunting in Nebraska, and my younger brother would bring home 3 to 5. So he was clearly better than I. Then I joined the Marine Corps and they taught me how to hold the firearm properly and how to breath. I credit the Marine Corps with significantly improving my overall accuracy with all firearms.

In 1972 the M16 was relatively new to the Marine Corps, and it was before the A2 variant was produced. They took us out one night during Second Phase in boot camp for a "demonstration" in fully-automatic live fire using nothing but tracers. The only instruction we were given was to use "John Wayne Style" when firing the weapon. Meaning, hold the rifle at your hip with one hand, and the other hand is placed on top of the front guard to prevent the rifle from rising when fired. At no time did they ever suggest that we actually aim the firearm. Just keep it pointing down range. It was a rather fun display. The tracers were coming so quickly it looked like lasers firing instead of bullets.
 
Rifle training and qualification is performed during the Second Phase of Marine Corps boot camp. The first few days are spent in the classroom teaching you about the firearm. Then drills on how to properly hold the firearm and fasten the sling to make the weapon stable. After about a week we were allowed to fire our first live round. The Range Officer did indeed practice firearm safety and ensured everyone else did as well, otherwise they would pay the consequences. But until that point, there was never any discussion or instruction about firearm safety....

The USMC doesn't talk about gun safety until range day ?
I'm surprised


...I'm definitely in day-glow orange when I shoot caribou...

Have there actually been any studies on animals eyesight, specifically deer etc
IIRC bulls are color blind and see mostly movement and the "red rag to a bull" is a myth
Yet the hunting stores are full of camouflage clothing to equip you head to foot (even camouflage boots). I am sure hunters wear camouflage clothing as part of a personal image


...even a .22 rim-fire round could travel as far as a mile before falling to the ground. I also avoid shooting any target if there is water in the background because of ricochets. The very first rule of moose hunting is to never shoot a moose standing in water. At 1,200 to 1,400 pounds, you are cleaning them where they drop. You have no choice in the matter, unless you have a rig big enough to haul them out...

I've never been hunting. I just don't think I could do it.

...I enjoyed the firearm qualification part, because I noticed improvement in my shooting. I had been hunting since I was 8 years old, and I considered myself to be an average shot. Not great, but not bad either. I would bring home a pheasant or two after a day of hunting in Nebraska, and my younger brother would bring home 3 to 5. So he was clearly better than I. Then I joined the Marine Corps and they taught me how to hold the firearm properly and how to breath. I credit the Marine Corps with significantly improving my overall accuracy with all firearms....

When I picked up a rifle in the army, it was the first time (other than a friend's shotgun) I'd touched a gun. It was ab SLR (FN FAL 7.62mm NATO). I wasn't holding it properly and the first recoil wacked my cheek bone hard. I developed severe gun shyness after that and never was a good shot.
The sergeant said the rifle would kill an elephant. I believed him.

Now with the prevalence of body armor and combat at longer distances like in the ME and Afghanistan, the 7.62mm is making a comeback.

...in 1972 the M16 was relatively new to the Marine Corps, and it was before the A2 variant was produced. They took us out one night during Second Phase in boot camp for a "demonstration" in fully-automatic live fire using nothing but tracers. The only instruction we were given was to use "John Wayne Style" when firing the weapon. Meaning, hold the rifle at your hip with one hand, and the other hand is placed on top of the front guard to prevent the rifle from rising when fired. At no time did they ever suggest that we actually aim the firearm. Just keep it pointing down range. It was a rather fun display. The tracers were coming so quickly it looked like lasers firing instead of bullets.

I liked full auto after basic training but the rounds went everywhere - I transferred to a support branch after two years infantry

Did you know that the M-16 was calibrated for 7.62mm for US troops based in Germany ?
 
The USMC doesn't talk about gun safety until range day ?
I'm surprised
Not even then. The Range Officer is very well versed in firearm safety, naturally, and he imposes that on the recruits, but within no instruction beforehand. The recruit finds out about firearm safety after they have broken the rules.

Have there actually been any studies on animals eyesight, specifically deer etc
IIRC bulls are color blind and see mostly movement and the "red rag to a bull" is a myth
Yet the hunting stores are full of camouflage clothing to equip you head to foot (even camouflage boots). I am sure hunters wear camouflage clothing as part of a personal image
Deer can see in color, but they have more rods (night time) and fewer cones (day time) than humans. They also lack red cones, which gives them a very specific red-green color blindness. Deer can see better than humans at night, but reds, oranges, yellows, and browns are indistinguishable from different shades of green to deer.

I've never been hunting. I just don't think I could do it.
We all have to eat. That is my only rule when hunting: If you kill it, you eat it. It is the rule my father taught me when I was 8. I do take caribou and an occasional moose in the fall, plus a few ptarmigan and spruce grouse during the Winter. I also catch between 200 and 250 pounds of salmon each season. When combined with the berries and other flora that I forage, somewhere between 20% and 25% of my food comes from the wild.

I like knowing where my food originates and how to prepare it for consumption.

When I picked up a rifle in the army, it was the first time (other than a friend's shotgun) I'd touched a gun. It was ab SLR (FN FAL 7.62mm NATO). I wasn't holding it properly and the first recoil wacked my cheek bone hard. I developed severe gun shyness after that and never was a good shot.
The sergeant said the rifle would kill an elephant. I believed him.
I also had an issue with the M16. My dominant eye is my right eye, so I learned to shoot right-handed. However, when I joined the Marine Corps they noticed that I was left-handed and required me to learn how to shoot left-handed. They didn't care about a dominant eye, calling it "nonsense." As a result, the ejector port on the M16 ejects the hot casings directly into the face of left-handed shooters. It is not a pleasant experience. They have a deflector on the ejector port now, but that didn't exist in 1972.

Now with the prevalence of body armor and combat at longer distances like in the ME and Afghanistan, the 7.62mm is making a comeback.
After boot camp the firearm I was assigned was the M60E1 because I was the biggest guy in the platoon. I happen to agree with you, the 7.62mm is a better overall round than the 5.56mm. However, you have to remember that the goal was not to kill but rather to wound. The idea was that a wounded enemy would require more resources than a dead one.

I liked full auto after basic training but the rounds went everywhere - I transferred to a support branch after two years infantry
My MOS was 1391 (Bulkfuelman) and I was assigned to the Bulkfuel Company, 7th Engineer Battalion, 1st Field, Service, & Support, Group, 1st Marine Division. When we weren't training with the Navy SeaBees, they rented us out to the grunts as enemy target practice. Which I kind of liked actually. They had to follow all kinds of rules, but we were pretty much free to do as we pleased. Like sneak into their camp at night and steal their C-Rats. :)

Did you know that the M-16 was calibrated for 7.62mm for US troops based in Germany ?
The frame can be changed to suit just about any caliber. I bought an AR12 last year to replace my Mossberg Model 500 that had been my "camp gun." They even have them chambered for .50 cal. BMG: YouTube

It is also my preferred caliber. I use a Springfield .3006 for caribou and a slightly more powerful Remington .300 Win. Mag. for moose. Every animal I've taken has been within 150 yards so I only use mechanical sights.
 
...the recruit finds out about firearm safety after they have broken the rules....

We had these "drill rounds" painted red and did "dry" firing for quite a while before going on the range.

...deer can see in color, but they have more rods (night time) and fewer cones (day time) than humans. They also lack red cones, which gives them a very specific red-green color blindness. Deer can see better than humans at night, but reds, oranges, yellows, and browns are indistinguishable from different shades of green to deer...


So hunting gear in camouflage is just BS ?

...we all have to eat. That is my only rule when hunting: If you kill it, you eat it....

I mostly prefer white meat like chicken that's farmed.

You reminded me of a combat survival course I did. It was in the late 80's and we were told of Argentine conscripts starving to death in the Falklands whilst surrounded by literally hundreds of sheep and they had loaded rifles.


...I like knowing where my food originates and how to prepare it for consumption....

My wife's a Longhorn Restaurant fan so we go there a lot.


...I also had an issue with the M16. My dominant eye is my right eye, so I learned to shoot right-handed. However, when I joined the Marine Corps they noticed that I was left-handed and required me to learn how to shoot left-handed. They didn't care about a dominant eye, calling it "nonsense." As a result, the ejector port on the M16 ejects the hot casings directly into the face of left-handed shooters. It is not a pleasant experience. They have a deflector on the ejector port now, but that didn't exist in 1972....

You won't hardly believe this but around 1992 my company got the much hated L85A1 SA-80 rifle. It was a bull-pup design and could not be fired left handed (a left handed shot lost you your teeth)
It had more parts than a Swiss clock and many of the small and easily losable. Bits fell off and it jammed like a session musician.

We were envious of the M-16

...after boot camp the firearm I was assigned was the M60E1 because I was the biggest guy in the platoon. I happen to agree with you, the 7.62mm is a better overall round than the 5.56mm. However, you have to remember that the goal was not to kill but rather to wound. The idea was that a wounded enemy would require more resources than a dead one....

I was made a gunner on my last exercise just before transferring out of the infantry. We had the General Purpose Machine Gun - based off the FN MAG. We thought it was the best machine gun on Earth, 25lb but fired really well.
The standard issue with the SLR was 4 mags = 80 rounds of 7.62mm. It was 10 mags of 5.56mm = 300 rounds

...my MOS was 1391 (Bulkfuelman) and I was assigned to the Bulkfuel Company, 7th Engineer Battalion, 1st Field, Service, & Support, Group, 1st Marine Division....

In the year 2000 after my divorce and before my 2nd wife, I visited Vietnam an Cambodia on a 3 week vacation - there's a bar in Hue called the Apocalypse Now bar...you could spend a week in the toilets reading the graffiti of guys who'd served there, all of who had listed their unit and dates.


...when we weren't training with the Navy SeaBees, they rented us out to the grunts as enemy target practice. Which I kind of liked actually. They had to follow all kinds of rules, but we were pretty much free to do as we pleased. Like sneak into their camp at night and steal their C-Rats....


Did you still have cigarettes in your rations ?
We liked trading with US troops - I liked the MRE self heating bags - they were great at keeping you warm like a hot water bottle at night.

...the frame can be changed to suit just about any caliber. I bought an AR12 last year to replace my Mossberg Model 500 that had been my "camp gun." They even have them chambered for .50 cal. BMG

It must kick like a mule...let me take a look.
 
So hunting gear in camouflage is just BS ?
With regard to deer, yep. Just don't wear blue while deer hunting, that color really stands out.

However, birds see very well in color, better than humans in most cases, so camouflage has merit in such cases. It is a very common practice among duck and geese hunters to use camouflage. I hunted ducks and geese in Nebraska where all you had to do is find the nearest cornfield to a lake and wait until evening. They will always leave the lake and fly to the cornfields in the evenings for dinner. In Alaska there are no cornfields, although there are plenty of ducks and geese. Alaskan ducks and geese stay in the muskeg, making it damn difficult to get access. So I rarely hunt them now.

I mostly prefer white meat like chicken that's farmed.
I prefer my meat free from hormones, antibiotics, and other man-made chemicals. It also tastes ten times better.

You reminded me of a combat survival course I did. It was in the late 80's and we were told of Argentine conscripts starving to death in the Falklands whilst surrounded by literally hundreds of sheep and they had loaded rifles.
That anecdote only reinforces my belief that city-critters would starve to death if their meat didn't come cellophane-wrapped from grocery stores. Hunting, fishing and foraging is more than just feeding yourself. It is knowing how to feed yourself.

You won't hardly believe this but around 1992 my company got the much hated L85A1 SA-80 rifle. It was a bull-pup design and could not be fired left handed (a left handed shot lost you your teeth)
It had more parts than a Swiss clock and many of the small and easily losable. Bits fell off and it jammed like a session musician.

We were envious of the M-16
I believe you, but I'm unfamiliar with the weapon so I really can't comment either way. I ended up qualifying as Expert left-handed, but after boot camp when I had to re-qualify the following year and ever year thereafter, I did so right-handed. I still prefer to shoot right-handed today.

I was made a gunner on my last exercise just before transferring out of the infantry. We had the General Purpose Machine Gun - based off the FN MAG. We thought it was the best machine gun on Earth, 25lb but fired really well.
The standard issue with the SLR was 4 mags = 80 rounds of 7.62mm. It was 10 mags of 5.56mm = 300 rounds
The M60E1 was 34 pounds unloaded, and you had to change barrels after every 100-round belt. It was a two-man weapon. Since I carried the firearm I shot it. My partner carried two extra barrels, an asbestos glove, and a few hundred rounds of ammunition. Today I understand they are using the M60E3 which is half the weight, and due to improvements in metallurgy, no longer needs to have the barrel changed. So it is operated by just one person today.

In the year 2000 after my divorce and before my 2nd wife, I visited Vietnam an Cambodia on a 3 week vacation - there's a bar in Hue called the Apocalypse Now bar...you could spend a week in the toilets reading the graffiti of guys who'd served there, all of who had listed their unit and dates.
I never made it to Vietnam. The Marine Corps sent me to Futenma Air Base on Okinawa to refuel helicopters from 1973 until 1974 instead.

Did you still have cigarettes in your rations ?
We liked trading with US troops - I liked the MRE self heating bags - they were great at keeping you warm like a hot water bottle at night.
Yep. Every box of C-Rats included 5 cigarettes. K-Rats also, which we still used even though they were made for the Korean War. They didn't start issuing MREs until after I got out in 1980.

Marine Corps chow is the worst of all the US military branches. I actually looked forward to eating C-Rats and K-Rats. It was better than the slop we got in the mess hall.

It must kick like a mule...let me take a look.
My Remington .458 Win. Mag. had a 60-pound felt recoil. Each round fired was like getting your shoulder slammed by a 16-pound sledge-hammer. I eventually sold it because I couldn't afford to shoot it any longer. Each round ran more than $5.00 to make, and I could only handle a maximum of 5 rounds from that firearm. It is the biggest firearm Remington makes. It did have 5,400 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle, so it was particularly useful at stopping just about anything. Not a terribly accurate round however, because the 500 grain bullet has a tendency to drop pretty quickly. Anything beyond about 300 yards and you are using indirect fire.
 
The USMC doesn't talk about gun safety until range day ?
I'm surprised




Have there actually been any studies on animals eyesight, specifically deer etc
IIRC bulls are color blind and see mostly movement and the "red rag to a bull" is a myth
Yet the hunting stores are full of camouflage clothing to equip you head to foot (even camouflage boots). I am sure hunters wear camouflage clothing as part of a personal image




I've never been hunting. I just don't think I could do it.



When I picked up a rifle in the army, it was the first time (other than a friend's shotgun) I'd touched a gun. It was ab SLR (FN FAL 7.62mm NATO). I wasn't holding it properly and the first recoil wacked my cheek bone hard. I developed severe gun shyness after that and never was a good shot.
The sergeant said the rifle would kill an elephant. I believed him.

Now with the prevalence of body armor and combat at longer distances like in the ME and Afghanistan, the 7.62mm is making a comeback.



I liked full auto after basic training but the rounds went everywhere - I transferred to a support branch after two years infantry

Did you know that the M-16 was calibrated for 7.62mm for US troops based in Germany ?

I own a couple Belgian FN-FALs in semi auto only (they are worthless firing in full auto, which I have done) and yes they will kill elephants. I watched a film of a South African game warden called out to deal with 5-6 rogue elephants that were making a dangerous nuisance. He was armed with the South African version of that rifle. Came across the rogue pachyderms trying to push down a wire fence. He parked his land rover about 50 yards away, loaded the rifle and bang bang bang-one head shot each elephant. they all sagged down and were dead by the time he walked the fifty yards. FMJ right through the skull. Now none of those elephants were trophy class bulls (when my father shot one in Kenya-another rogue elephant that was tearing up Masai farms and homes) he used a 458. However, a 30 caliber military rifle will kill elephants and british colonists and South African Boers proved that since the 303 Enfield has been used by such groups to kill thousands of big elephants in Eastern and Southern Africa
 
You say it is sufficient and speak as if the military idea of securing weapons at all times results in something approaching perfection. I say it's not unknown for soldiers to misplace, misuse, damage and even steal weapons.
And those soldiers get punished when this happens.

Did you see any pop-up targets during the training you go on about?
Not a single one, because said training occurred in the barracks, the chow hall, morning PT, and every class. When you went to religious service on Sunday, you had to secure your weapon before you left. I'm not sure why you think pop-up target were a relevant thing to bring up in a discussion about preventing any shots from being fired at all.

I called it.

My experience includes BOTH military and civilian firearm use. Plenty and more civilian use than I ever got in the Army. Like I said, military training had nothing to teach me about firearm use in general except things that apply to only the military. Believe it or not, the Army way doesn't always equate to civilian life.

Always looking for someone to tell you what to do and punish you when you're bad isn't likely to work out well for you in your civilian life. Your civilian boss isn't going to come around and knock on your door every morning to make sure you're awake in time for work. You're not going to be expected to demonstrate physical subservience to everyone higher in class structure every time you meet them.

And you're not going to be able to perpetually go around complaining to people that they're not doing things the way you did them in Army and By God they should or you will be personally offended and pissed. Likely someone will just tell you to stick that **** up your ass.

I appreciate your argument here because you reinforce the fact that my position on this issue is born from Army training, not from being anti-gun. You just proved Turtle wrong.
 
Back
Top Bottom