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...you're More Likely to Shoot a Loved One

Slyfox696 said:
No, my goal is "to help prevent and/or crack down on those purchasing for others), background checks for all purchases (which would also help allow for proper transfer of sold firearms with the registration regulation)" in order to "keep firearms out of the hands of those who should not have them"...you know, like I said.
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Right, and the Controlled Substances Act keep drugs out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them.

What the hell are you talking about?
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I'm saying your gun registration scheme is not going to come close to doing what you think it will do. Gun owners are not stupid. We know and understand that the only reason people like you want registration is for confiscation later on.
 
aociswundumho said:
Uh, I'm the guy in your sig file stating that he's not a big Trump fan, remember?
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Yeah and if you think about what you said, then you will understand why I used it as my sig line.
I used it because NO ONE in their right mind is buying your feeble attempt to weasel out of being a Trump supporter.

" did vote for him, and I'll vote for him again in 2020."
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Then you ARE a Trump fan.
But nice try moving the goal posts.

Maybe you could expend some effort in not feeding your "owning the libs" addiction and dial back the red-baiting a little bit.
But I don't expect you to do that, I expect you to double down on it, because that is what Trump supporters are ordered to do by their hero.

I expect it because you have hidebound knee jerk reactionary tendencies which are apparent in every post you make.

"How about free firearm training by certified instructors to anyone who wants it?"
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See, you COULD HAVE just asked that question straight up instead, like that ^^^

Here is MY "libtard" answer to that question:

"Sounds like a great idea, one that is desperately needed, seeing as how the 2A is here to stay and we have so many gun owners. They all need the best training and education we can muster because LACK of that is part of why we're seeing this crisis unfold. It is also part of why so many people die accidentally, too. I'd gladly pay extra taxes to fund it because in the long run it would actually SAVE money."

But no, you just couldn't resist red-baiting and libtard owning!
It's what you do!
So if you want to throw away chances to have a normal conversation on a political forum with diverse groups of people, that's your business.
But when you do your red-baiting, someone is going to notice that you're just another political hack...many "someones".
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Yeah and if you think about what you said, then you will understand why I used it as my sig line.
I used it because NO ONE in their right mind is buying your feeble attempt to weasel out of being a Trump supporter.
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I am a Trump supporter, just not a big Trump supporter, mostly because of the tariffs and his views on gun control. Tariffs are just plain stupid. He's also way too concerned with jobs. The goal should be more and cheaper goods and services, not jobs per se. But nobody's perfect, and I will vote for him again.


Maybe you could expend some effort in not feeding your "owning the libs" addiction and dial back the red-baiting a little bit.
But I don't expect you to do that, I expect you to double down on it, because that is what Trump supporters are ordered to do by their hero.
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Trust me, my absolute hatred for the collectivist left has nothing to do with Trump - it has to do with the mountain of corpses and rivers of blood caused by Marxism. No one reading this exchange here is going to think Trump is my "hero", but they'll probably think you're suffering from tds.

Here is MY "libtard" answer to that question:

"Sounds like a great idea, one that is desperately needed, seeing as how the 2A is here to stay and we have so many gun owners. They all need the best training and education we can muster because LACK of that is part of why we're seeing this crisis unfold. It is also part of why so many people die accidentally, too. I'd gladly pay extra taxes to fund it because in the long run it would actually SAVE money."
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First, I disagree that there is any sort of "crisis". The rate of violent crime in the US has been dropping precipitously for decades.

Second, while I appreciate your honest answer, I'm pretty sure this idea would be extremely unpopular with modern progressives.

But no, you just couldn't resist red-baiting and libtard owning!
It's what you do!
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What can I say, it's fun.
 
iguanaman said:
How do you propose we accomplish that? I thought guns made us safer?
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not in the hands of those who are terrified of them. I advocate such people not buy things that upset them
 
iguanaman said:
What you are "guaranteeing" is that nothing will be done about the problem by denying that it is even a problem. Funny but modern medicine does everything possible to save every life they can but when it comes to guns lives turn into something "infinitesimal" and not worth the trouble to worry about. No one wants to ban guns but there are a lot of ways we can minimize senseless killings like this. We can start by prosecuting all gun owners who do not keep their guns under lock and key and result in injury of children or others. They are now often called "accidents" which is a misnomer. We can also require gun dealers to inform purchasers of the danger of guns in the hands of children and the mentally unstable and require that they sign a form indication they understand these dangers. The list goes on and on but in general there needs to be a stop to the fallacy that guns make you safer. They are a double edged sword that many do not even realize they are wielding.
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Let me guess, you have never bought a handgun. For years, you are given an ATF pamphlet that warns of such things.
 
Slyfox696 said:
Umm...yes.

Wait, did YOU say that? You need to allow me a moment to collect myself on a situation in which we agree. :)

However, since it just feels wrong for us to agree on this topic, my guess is we differ drastically on the steps which should be used to keep incompetents from having guns. I favor registration (to help prevent and/or crack down on those purchasing for others), background checks for all purchases (which would also help allow for proper transfer of sold firearms with the registration regulation), and mandatory (but free of charge) training for the purchase of the first firearm (and every so often after that...for the sake of discussion, let's say every 10 years).

How do you propose to keep firearms out of the hands of those who should not have them?
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Its a felony for those who have been adjudicated incompetent or too dangerous to possess firearms. When the NRA supported federal charges for those who violate those laws, liberal groups opposed it. Registration does nothing but harass honest people. UBGCs are worthless too
 
WillyPete said:
Any hope you'd support legislation that would make that the law instead of just good advice?

We'd need to decide how to determine that competence, as part of that.
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well there are posters on this board who are clearly afraid of guns and I suggest they don't own them
 
TurtleDude said:
Its a felony for those who have been adjudicated incompetent or too dangerous to possess firearms.
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But those people are still getting firearms. So how do you propose to keep firearms out of the hands of those who should not have them?

Registration does nothing but harass honest people.
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I have to register for numerous things in my life. It's not that big of a hassle.

UBGCs are worthless too
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I mean, there's plenty of evidence where this isn't true, but I'm not looking to go down that rabbit hole. My question is simply how you propose to keep firearms out of the hands of people who should not have them, but are getting them anyways?
 
Slyfox696 said:
But those people are still getting firearms. So how do you propose to keep firearms out of the hands of those who should not have them?

I have to register for numerous things in my life. It's not that big of a hassle.

I mean, there's plenty of evidence where this isn't true, but I'm not looking to go down that rabbit hole. My question is simply how you propose to keep firearms out of the hands of people who should not have them, but are getting them anyways?
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Which constitutional rights have you registered with the government in order to exercise them?
 
Slyfox696 said:
But those people are still getting firearms. So how do you propose to keep firearms out of the hands of those who should not have them?

I have to register for numerous things in my life. It's not that big of a hassle.

I mean, there's plenty of evidence where this isn't true, but I'm not looking to go down that rabbit hole. My question is simply how you propose to keep firearms out of the hands of people who should not have them, but are getting them anyways?
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how many of those things are constitutionaly protected?

How many of those things have been confiscated by governments

we have laws that jail people caught with firearms when they are banned from owning them. That is more than sufficient
 
Bullseye said:
Which constitutional rights have you registered with the government in order to exercise them?
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Spare me your lazy red herrings. If you can't contribute intelligently to the conversation, stay out or, at the very least, don't expect me to waste my time on your BS.

I asked TD a legitimate question and you're ignoring the legitimate questions to vomit stupidity. Go somewhere else for that or, as I said, don't expect me to waste my time.
 
TurtleDude said:
we have laws that jail people caught with firearms when they are banned from owning them. That is more than sufficient
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So...you have absolutely no plans or ideas to keep people who shouldn't have guns from having them.

Well, I enjoyed our moment of agreement while it lasted, but if you cannot even acknowledge there's a problem with gun deaths (homicides, accidentals and suicides) in this country to the point where you can proffer even a single idea on how to help, then I guess we've found where our moment ends.
 
there are two ways at looking at this issue

1) the first is this-I support everyone who is legally entitled to owning a firearm under our constitution, to be able to own one. Now a legal framework that allows that, might well mean some scumbags, nutcases and pure stone cold assholes can get guns a bit more easily than they could in other systems. And that is true with our legal system in general-the attitude that its better ten guilty go free than one innocent man hang. Things like Miranda, Gideon, etc are based on that view

2) The second avenue is usually taken by those who have no use for gun owners, or gun ownership so when their desired positions cause collateral damage they don't care-or in some cases-welcome that. Their position is a desire for laws that do everything possible to keep "bad guys" from getting guns, and if that means for each bad guy who is prevented from obtaining a firearm, 1000 honest people are disarmed-so be it

I choose 1. and yes, I know that probably means that some unambitious or low wattage killers or wannabe kamikaze mass shooters may get guns or may get them more easily than they would in say a gun banning society like Japan.
 
Slyfox696 said:
So...you have absolutely no plans or ideas to keep people who shouldn't have guns from having them.

Well, I enjoyed our moment of agreement while it lasted, but if you cannot even acknowledge there's a problem with gun deaths (homicides, accidentals and suicides) in this country to the point where you can proffer even a single idea on how to help, then I guess we've found where our moment ends.
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what other "crimes" do you want something other than punishment for committing them to be implemented? The number of guns have gone up but the rate of accidental deaths or even murders have gone down
 
TurtleDude said:
there are two ways at looking at this issue

1) the first is this-I support everyone who is legally entitled to owning a firearm under our constitution, to be able to own one. Now a legal framework that allows that, might well mean some scumbags, nutcases and pure stone cold assholes can get guns a bit more easily than they could in other systems. And that is true with our legal system in general-the attitude that its better ten guilty go free than one innocent man hang. Things like Miranda, Gideon, etc are based on that view

2) The second avenue is usually taken by those who have no use for gun owners, or gun ownership so when their desired positions cause collateral damage they don't care-or in some cases-welcome that. Their position is a desire for laws that do everything possible to keep "bad guys" from getting guns, and if that means for each bad guy who is prevented from obtaining a firearm, 1000 honest people are disarmed-so be it

I choose 1. and yes, I know that probably means that some unambitious or low wattage killers or wannabe kamikaze mass shooters may get guns or may get them more easily than they would in say a gun banning society like Japan.
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Um, so why do you not support my argument? My argument does not keep anyone from owning a gun who is legally entitled to and it does not keep a single honest person from getting one.

TurtleDude said:
what other "crimes" do you want something other than punishment for committing them to be implemented?
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Umm...we pass preventative laws all the time to keep people from engaging in dangerous acts. For example, my family cannot purchase Sudafed over the counter anymore because of meth.

In most other instances, if we see a problem, we try to deal with the problem. You and I both agree those who shouldn't have guns shouldn't have guns. I've explained how I'd like to see the problem addressed, but you haven't offered a single idea.

Which suggests either you don't care that gun deaths is a problem or you have no interest in finding a solution.

The number of guns have gone up but the rate of accidental deaths or even murders have gone down
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I guess it depends on how you're using the word "rate", because the total number of gun deaths is increasing and in 2017 the rate of gun deaths was the highest in decades...

Total Deaths Source: CDC report: US gun deaths reach highest level in nearly 40 years | TheHill
Homicide Deaths: FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

"On a per capita basis, there were 12 gun deaths per 100,000 people in 2017 – the highest rate in more than two decades,"
Gun deaths in the U.S.: 10 key questions answered | Pew Research Center

So...I'm not sure exactly where you are going with this. More people are dying every year due to firearms. Are you saying this is not a problem?
 
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Slyfox696 said:
Um, so why do you not support my argument? My argument does not keep anyone from owning a gun who is legally entitled to and it does not keep a single honest person from getting one.

Umm...we pass preventative laws all the time to keep people from engaging in dangerous acts. For example, my family cannot purchase Sudafed over the counter anymore because of meth.

In most other instances, if we see a problem, we try to deal with the problem. You and I both agree those who shouldn't have guns shouldn't have guns. I've explained how I'd like to see the problem addressed, but you haven't offered a single idea.

Which suggests either you don't care that gun deaths is a problem or you have no interest in finding a solution.

I guess it depends on how you're using the word "rate", because the total number of gun deaths is increasing and in 2017 the rate of gun deaths was the highest in decades...

Total Deaths Source: CDC report: US gun deaths reach highest level in nearly 40 years | TheHill
Homicide Deaths: FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

"On a per capita basis, there were 12 gun deaths per 100,000 people in 2017 – the highest rate in more than two decades,"
Gun deaths in the U.S.: 10 key questions answered | Pew Research Center

So...I'm not sure exactly where you are going with this. More people are dying every year due to firearms. Are you saying this is not a problem?
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suicides have been increasing as the demographics that "favor" suicide have been increasing. And registration has a track record of being used to seize guns that are -long after they were legally purchased-banned. Every group that wants gun bans supports registration. So I oppose it because it has nothing of value for gun owners and has all sorts of potential problems

the sudafed issue actually cuts against gun laws.
 
calamity said:
Stats prove a gun owner pulling a trigger is most likely to:

1. Shoot himself

2. Shoot a loved one

3. Commit a felony

....

10015. Kill bad guy
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X,000,000,000 firearm discharges
21,175 suicides
11,208 homicides
505 deaths due to accidental or negligentdischarge of a firearm281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent"

Can't really find any data on the number of "bad guys" killed annually, or
the number of crimes prevented as a result of the intended victim being armed with a gun.

I couldn't find the "stats" you claimed showing "10015. Kill bad guy", but having pulled a trigger many thousands of times I've never once shot myself, shot a loved one, committed a felony, or even killed a bad guy in civilian life.
 
Individual said:
X,000,000,000 firearm discharges
21,175 suicides
11,208 homicides
505 deaths due to accidental or negligentdischarge of a firearm281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent"

Can't really find any data on the number of "bad guys" killed annually, or
the number of crimes prevented as a result of the intended victim being armed with a gun.

I couldn't find the "stats" you claimed showing "10015. Kill bad guy", but having pulled a trigger many thousands of times I've never once shot myself, shot a loved one, committed a felony, or even killed a bad guy in civilian life.
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I have more than 3/4 million rounds down range-one hit a person-and it was intentional and legal. Calamity's claims are dishonest.
 
aociswundumho said:
I am a Trump supporter, just not a big Trump supporter, mostly because of the tariffs and his views on gun control.
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Yes I agree on the gun control, Trump hasn't been totally honest about that. He said he is in favor of red flag laws which violate due process and he also signed into law the bump stock ban. Not that I care much for bump stocks, I've never had a bump stock and never wanted one, but he should've tried to get more gun rights passed in the process of signing the bump stock ban.

As for tariffs, too many jobs are going overseas where labor is often cheaper so we need tariffs and Hillary was going to do something along the same lines, but that is a topic for another discussion.
 
Slyfox696 said:
But those people are still getting firearms. So how do you propose to keep firearms out of the hands of those who should not have them?
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By enforcing the law that says they can't get them.

Slyfox696 said:
I have to register for numerous things in my life. It's not that big of a hassle.
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Whenever you have to register something, that's because its ownership or use is a privilege. Owning guns and using guns for lawful purposes is not a privilege its a right as defined by the Constitution. Therefore having to register guns would violate the constitution and violate the rights of American citizens.
 
TurtleDude said:
I have more than 3/4 million rounds down range-one hit a person-and it was intentional and legal. Calamity's claims are dishonest.
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I searched, but was unable to find the "stats" referred to, as I was curious to see what numbers 4 through 10014 and any numbered greater than 10015 were claiming as likely.
 
TurtleDude said:
Let me guess, you have never bought a handgun. For years, you are given an ATF pamphlet that warns of such things.
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I don't mean something they stuff in the bag before you leave the store. I mean something the buyer reads before the purchase and sign with records kept to ensure compliance. They also need to told they may not keep a firearm in a home where a mentally impaired person resides. There needs to be a warning about the serious responsibility a gun in the home requires.
 
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Slyfox696 said:
Spare me your lazy red herrings. If you can't contribute intelligently to the conversation, stay out or, at the very least, don't expect me to waste my time on your BS.

I asked TD a legitimate question and you're ignoring the legitimate questions to vomit stupidity. Go somewhere else for that or, as I said, don't expect me to waste my time.
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Spare ME your pompous bull****. I asked a legitimate question. You're some positive registration will work wonders in gun deaths. I asked for examples of where you proposals is currently working. If all you can offer is supercilious horse crap don't bother to reply
 
Individual said:
I searched, but was unable to find the "stats" referred to, as I was curious to see what numbers 4 through 10014 and any numbered greater than 10015 were claiming as likely.
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Just about anything he says concerning guns is either erroneous or patently dishonest. I think his comment you are referring to is proof of that. At my gun club, there are 100,000 rounds shot every month and I am unaware of anyone ever dying there in the fifty years that club has existed.
 
iguanaman said:
I don't mean something they stuff in the bag before you leave the store. I mean something the buyer reads before the purchase and sign with records kept to ensure compliance. They also need to told they may not keep a firearm in a home where a mentally impaired person resides. There needs to be a warning about the serious responsibility a gun in the home requires.
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And that is going to do what exactly? you do know that over 80% of all murders perpetrated by an armed person involve those who cannot legally own firearms. SO why are you so interested in doing something that doesn't even apply to the vast majority? We have seen your mendacious comments about legal gun ownership and have to conclude you support this because you think it will hassle gun owners
 
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