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The difference between the UK and the US when it comes to the availability of guns

Manc Skipper said:
Moronic insults don't change reality.
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What Im stating is reality, its not a moronic insult, its the way it is.

Manc Skipper said:
The USA is a dangerous place to be. So dangerous, some people need guns to shore up their spines.
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I've been living here all my life, its not dangerous from my experience.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Flamebait.

According to any sane look at facts, the gun crime rate is nowhere close to the USA's.
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But, ours is down, with guns. Yours is climbing, without guns, or even pliers.
 
apdst said:
But, ours is down, with guns. Yours is climbing, without guns, or even pliers.
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Conclusion, if the USA has a higher violent crime rate than the UK its not because of guns.

If the UK has a lower violent crime rate than the UK its not because the lack of guns.
 
apdst said:
Stop trying to move the goal posts.

The United States has had an increase in gun ownership, while the violent crime rate was cut in half.

England has a drop in gun ownership and an increase in violent crimes.
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You liked Pew Research - seems that the basic written facts still evade you so here's a nice clear picture from Pew and the FBI to show you how horrible your country is.

_108194448_gun_comaprisons_v2_640-nc.png


apdst said:
But, ours is down, with guns. Yours is climbing, without guns, or even pliers.
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America's gun culture in charts - BBC News

Aberration said:
Never said you did. But you did use slavery as a means to criticize us now. Except your society suffered the same problems. So you lack a position to criticize from.
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I have no idea why it's so hard to understand. Your nation promoted and still promotes itself as a beacon to others. Britain never did that. Your nation lied about being the "home of the free" when minorities were still hugely oppressed and had little chance of improving their lot.

Aberration said:
I already had. My reply was not meant for this comments but specifically the comments I quoted.
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Nice way of admitting you didn't properly read what I posted.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
You liked Pew Research - seems that the basic written facts still evade you so here's a nice clear picture from Pew and the FBI to show you how horrible your country is.

_108194448_gun_comaprisons_v2_640-nc.png




America's gun culture in charts - BBC News



I have no idea why it's so hard to understand. Your nation promoted and still promotes itself as a beacon to others. Britain never did that. Your nation lied about being the "home of the free" when minorities were still hugely oppressed and had little chance of improving their lot.



Nice way of admitting you didn't properly read what I posted.
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Nice job of cherry picking. You only presents stats for gun murders, but ignored every other violent crime. I guess you have no choice, though. Otherwise, your argument would go down in flames faster than the Hindenburg
 
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DebateChallenge said:
We don't want to compare the USA with the UK. We haven't wanted to be associated with them since 1776.
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I'm quite sure you don't want to do ANYTHING which is inconvenient for your argument.

Haven't associated with the UK since 1776 (when the UK didn't exist)????

And yet, the Iraq War, Libya, and well... you do realize the UK has a tendency of being the US's poodle, right?
 
Frigidweirdo said:
No, they don't

Hardly the point here.

Again, most people who kill in the US probably wouldn't kill if they didn't have a gun.

You're not going to stop murder. But there's a different between the US murder rate and the UK murder rate.
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Two demographics that are just as subject to a whole range of variables, that make them both nearly alien compared to one another.

The US has had a lowering of crime and murder over the past several decades, and only outstrips itself in accounts of violence. When someone has the inclination to do so. Given the access to weapons, they can do just as much damage as they would be able to do with an automobile.

The UK on the other hand has been dealing with a slow rise of both petty serious crime, over these last few years. So much so that regular knives have been affected my legal ordinance, so much so that people have been arrested for everything from a potato peeler, to a overly angled spoon, and then some.

Both the US and the UK are victim to their own environments at this point.
 
TomFitz said:
Yes, this is a standard gun nut hobby horse.

In a country with open borders between states, local gun control legislation has largely proven to be pointless.


But this is one of the pillars that the gun crowd leans on in order to argue against any effective regulation.
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Attempting to poison the well, or just attacking someone personally by calling them a "gun nut" is what gets posters like you dismissed, and rightfully so.
 
Oborosen said:
Two demographics that are just as subject to a whole range of variables, that make them both nearly alien compared to one another.

The US has had a lowering of crime and murder over the past several decades, and only outstrips itself in accounts of violence. When someone has the inclination to do so. Given the access to weapons, they can do just as much damage as they would be able to do with an automobile.

The UK on the other hand has been dealing with a slow rise of both petty serious crime, over these last few years. So much so that regular knives have been affected my legal ordinance, so much so that people have been arrested for everything from a potato peeler, to a overly angled spoon, and then some.

Both the US and the UK are victim to their own environments at this point.
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And to ignore differences would be.... oh so convenient for you.
 
Frigidweirdo said:
And to ignore differences would be.... oh so convenient for you.
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I'm stating fact at this point. Despite all of the issues we've heard about through this year, dealing with gun violence, and mass shootings. It's not even a drop in the bucket of normal numbers and is still just a fraction of the deaths in a year. Had the law been applied correctly, or at the very least applied at all in some cases. Many of these people who acquire their weapons would've been caught early on and that goes doubly so for the parkland shooting case. Seeing as the shooter was showing severe red flags for his activities, even when he was actively doing his shooting. Law enforcement sat idly by, not even 200 feet away and just let him continue.

The UK is almost 40x smaller than the US and has given several of the US' states competition for crime rates. Not to mention beating out NY for violence fairly recently, as late as 2017 I believe.

One has had crime going down for so many years now, while the other has had crime going up for only a short amount of time.

Comparing the two on a flat, shot for shot basis. Isn't going to really show anything.
 
Oborosen said:
I'm stating fact at this point. Despite all of the issues we've heard about through this year, dealing with gun violence, and mass shootings. It's not even a drop in the bucket of normal numbers and is still just a fraction of the deaths in a year. Had the law been applied correctly, or at the very least applied at all in some cases. Many of these people who acquire their weapons would've been caught early on and that goes doubly so for the parkland shooting case. Seeing as the shooter was showing severe red flags for his activities, even when he was actively doing his shooting. Law enforcement sat idly by, not even 200 feet away and just let him continue.

The UK is almost 40x smaller than the US and has given several of the US' states competition for crime rates. Not to mention beating out NY for violence fairly recently, as late as 2017 I believe.

One has had crime going down for so many years now, while the other has had crime going up for only a short amount of time.

Comparing the two on a flat, shot for shot basis. Isn't going to really show anything.
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Stating irrelevant facts isn't going to help anyone.

The UK is 40 times smaller. So what? What on Earth does this fact have to do with anything?

The UK's population is 5 times smaller than the US's population. The landmass is about 40 times larger. The last I heard, landmass didn't commit murders.

The UK is more densely populated. More populated places have HIGHER CRIME on average. Larger cities have more crime per capita, usually, than smaller rural areas.

And yet your argument is cherry picking whatever you think makes your argument work.

But you're wrong.

Yes, London and NY got to about the same murder rate, for like two months.

This just shows the difference between the UK and the US. When London has a crime rate similar to one of the lowest large cities in the US, it's like "shock horror how much crime" and in the US it's like "wow, NY has so little crime". Don't even mention places like Detroit or St. Louis.

Saying you cannot compare the US with the UK is ridiculous. Yes, it's not a simple look at the statistics and make simple comparisons. However, I'm making the assumption here, we're not idiots. We can make such comparisons and we take into account the differences.
 
Frigidweirdo said:
Stating irrelevant facts isn't going to help anyone.

The UK is 40 times smaller. So what? What on Earth does this fact have to do with anything?

The UK's population is 5 times smaller than the US's population. The landmass is about 40 times larger. The last I heard, landmass didn't commit murders.

The UK is more densely populated. More populated places have HIGHER CRIME on average. Larger cities have more crime per capita, usually, than smaller rural areas.

And yet your argument is cherry picking whatever you think makes your argument work.

But you're wrong.

Yes, London and NY got to about the same murder rate, for like two months.

This just shows the difference between the UK and the US. When London has a crime rate similar to one of the lowest large cities in the US, it's like "shock horror how much crime" and in the US it's like "wow, NY has so little crime". Don't even mention places like Detroit or St. Louis.

Saying you cannot compare the US with the UK is ridiculous. Yes, it's not a simple look at the statistics and make simple comparisons. However, I'm making the assumption here, we're not idiots. We can make such comparisons and we take into account the differences.
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Actually I'm stating how comparing two places such as the UK and the US only skew numbers even more, despite the drops, or increases of rates of violence. But okay, that will have to do I guess.

When it comes down to it the US doesn't even break the top 10 for homicides, compared to other countries and even then. The US has more guns per 100 people than any other country, and yet our rates for gun violence undercuts so many on that exact same board.

Fact of the matter is guns are not as available as many people tend to make all of this noise about. For all things to be considered, you can still buy some rifles and shotguns in the UK. Though handguns have been effectively banned for a while now.

Yet that does not stop violence from happening.
 
Oborosen said:
Actually I'm stating how comparing two places such as the UK and the US only skew numbers even more, despite the drops, or increases of rates of violence. But okay, that will have to do I guess.

When it comes down to it the US doesn't even break the top 10 for homicides, compared to other countries and even then. The US has more guns per 100 people than any other country, and yet our rates for gun violence undercuts so many on that exact same board.

Fact of the matter is guns are not as available as many people tend to make all of this noise about. For all things to be considered, you can still buy some rifles and shotguns in the UK. Though handguns have been effectively banned for a while now.

Yet that does not stop violence from happening.
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The problem is you're still deflecting away from the problems.

How does the difference skew the numbers even more? You stated the size of the US skews the numbers. Well, perhaps, but skews them for the UK, not the US.

It doesn't matter whether the US breaks the top 10 for homicides or not. Comparing the US with third world countries isn't really going to get us very far. The US is a first world country.

Yes, the US has more guns per capita than any other country. And the highest murder rate in the first world. Coincidence? Also the easy availability of guns means that bad people can easily get guns. Also means people who go a little crazy can get them easily too.

You say guns aren't as available as people think. I disagree.

Where Do the Guns Come From? | The Crime Report

"Guns were easy to obtain when he was a youngster, Samuel told us. Adults would shoot dice in front of the building, and he would offer to hold their guns. Sometimes he’d be sitting on a nearby bench with 10 guns on him."

"At the time, he was only 11 or 12 years old."

"None of this would have happened, Samuel says now, if he had not had such easy access to guns."

"They asked 99 inmates a simple question: where do you get your guns?

And the research is clear: while policymakers argue about background checks for legal gun purchases, criminals, for the most part, are not getting guns through legal means."

Where Do All The Illegal Guns In Chicago Come From? — Chicago Criminal Lawyer Blog — September 26, 2017

"According to the FBI, roughly 60% of guns used in crimes in Illinois were from out of state. The overwhelming number of those guns flow into Illinois from states that have much less restrictive gun laws. Most of those out of state guns came from Indiana, which is next to Illinois. Second place goes to Mississippi and third place goes to Wisconsin."

Guns are available and they're being acquired through illegal means, because the laws in place simply don't deal with the issues at hand. The biggest issue being that states do NOT have physical borders.

Yes, people can buy guns in the UK. So what's the difference between how the UK deals with things and how the US deals with things? The biggest part is that criminals find it difficult, not impossible, but difficult to get their hands on guns, therefore guns become precious for those who have them in the UK, whereas in the US, if you lose one gun, hell, go get another one.
 
Frigidweirdo said:
And yet, the Iraq War, Libya, and well... you do realize the UK has a tendency of being the US's poodle, right?
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Alright, if that's how you want to put it, then the UK should be following the example of the USA, not the other way around.
 
DebateChallenge said:
If anything, a gun would enable a woman to stop a stronger man from raping/murdering her.
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sadly, many gun banners think that is wrong. Many of the people who want to ban guns or severely restrict honest people from being armed, often have rather interesting views towards violent criminals-views that often see such mopes as "victims" of an "unjust society" who are forced into a life of crime by lack of "opportunities". So the thought of an intended victim, shooting a violent criminal, is often distasteful to the SJW types
 
Oborosen said:
For all things to be considered, you can still buy some rifles and shotguns in the UK. Though handguns have been effectively banned for a while now.
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You can buy and own handguns in the UK too, they just have to have an overall length of at least two feet and there is a minimal requirement for barrel length too. So handguns that are legal in the UK have long barrels and have counterbalances permanently attached to the handles. If you want to make it smaller, all you need is a hacksaw.
 
Frigidweirdo said:
The US is a first world country.
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You do know what a first world country is, don't you? First world countries are the free world, countries such as the USA and Canada and countries that are in NATO. Second world countries are communist countries such as China and the USSR when it existed. Third world countries are those that are neither NATO nor communist.
 
DebateChallenge said:
You do know what a first world country is, don't you? First world countries are the free world, countries such as the USA and Canada and countries that are in NATO. Second world countries are communist countries such as China and the USSR when it existed. Third world countries are those that are neither NATO nor communist.
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hmmm.. where do you put North Korea?
 
DebateChallenge said:
Alright, if that's how you want to put it, then the UK should be following the example of the USA, not the other way around.
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I'm lost, what does your comment have to do with this topic?
 
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