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I should not be punished for other people's actions

D

DebateChallenge

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There has been all this talk here about how guns are used in mass killings, where many innocent people are killed but the fact of the matter is that neither I nor most gun owners in the USA kill innocent people. What with all these school shootings and people ranting and raving that children shouldn't be shot in math class, well as horrible as those shootings are I don't shoot children in math class or anywhere else. Ive never gone on a mass shooting and most gun owners in the USA don't either. Far less than 1 percent of all gun owners in the USA ever shoot innocent people.

When you hear about children being shot in math class, or anywhere else, its horrible. The sad and unfortunate fact is that there are horrible people in this world who do stuff like that. But I am not one of them. As such I should not have my rights to buy and own guns infringed upon.

In short I should not be punished because of what somebody else did with a gun.
 
Damn right. And if you've never been arrested for drunk driving you should be permitted to drink and drive. :fart
 
Risky Thicket said:
Damn right. And if you've never been arrested for drunk driving you should be permitted to drink and drive. :fart
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Hmmm either you don’t see the flaw in that analogy, which means your reasoning skills are weak, or you don’t care. Possibly both. But it’s possible I’m missing something, so, to be fair:how do you think owning a firearm is similar to driving while impaired? And keep in mind that carrying a firearm while impaired is also illegal in all states that I know of.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Damn right. And if you've never been arrested for drunk driving you should be permitted to drink and drive. :fart
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Sure I should. I should be permitted to drink and to drive all I want provided I do them separately. :)

Doing them together, driving while intoxicated, is a different story. That nobody should be allowed to do.

Driving while intoxicated is harmful, owning guns is not.
 
DebateChallenge said:
There has been all this talk here about how guns are used in mass killings, where many innocent people are killed but the fact of the matter is that neither I nor most gun owners in the USA kill innocent people. What with all these school shootings and people ranting and raving that children shouldn't be shot in math class, well as horrible as those shootings are I don't shoot children in math class or anywhere else. Ive never gone on a mass shooting and most gun owners in the USA don't either. Far less than 1 percent of all gun owners in the USA ever shoot innocent people.

When you hear about children being shot in math class, or anywhere else, its horrible. The sad and unfortunate fact is that there are horrible people in this world who do stuff like that. But I am not one of them. As such I should not have my rights to buy and own guns infringed upon.

In short I should not be punished because of what somebody else did with a gun.
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You mean like prohibition? Just what and how are you being punished? Who has come and taken your firearms?

What I would like to see is the responsible gun owners come up with some ideas of their own to try to cut down on these mass shootings but as usual, never give an inch. If these mass shootings continue and I see no reason why they won't, at some point the choice will be taken out of the hands of law abiding gun owners. The younger generations will not keep putting up with these mass killings. Social issues are changing in our society and as more and more younger voters emerge the change will speed up.
 
bongsaway said:
You mean like prohibition? Just what and how are you being punished? Who has come and taken your firearms?
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Im being punished by having my gun rights infringed upon. If I am prohibited from buying or owning guns that I was previously not prohibited from buying or owning, because of some sick excuse for a human being went and shot up a school, I am being punished because of what the sick excuse for a human being did, not because of anything I did, which isn't fair.

bongsaway said:
What I would like to see is the responsible gun owners come up with some ideas of their own to try to cut down on these mass shootings but as usual, never give an inch. If these mass shootings continue and I see no reason why they won't, at some point the choice will be taken out of the hands of law abiding gun owners. The younger generations will not keep putting up with these mass killings. Social issues are changing in our society and as more and more younger voters emerge the change will speed up.
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Solutions have been presented many many times before on this forum. Some of the solutions I've proposed is allowing faculty and staff on schools who are legally allowed to carry to be allowed to carry. Having armed security in public places at public events where mass shootings might happen, and so forth.

One public place where I feel most safe is the Jersey shore. Why? Because of all the armed security. Especially during the summer there are tons and tons of people that go to the Jersey shore and the boardwalk and beach are swarmed with people. The kind of place a mass shooter would target IF they didn't have armed security. Yet no mass shooter has ever targeted the Jersey Shore. Why? Most likely because of the tons of armed security on the boardwalk. Not only do they have a mini police station right on the boardwalk but security personnel at the bars are armed. Even the meter maids are armed. A mass shooter who is smart enough would never target such a place. A mass shooter who is dumb enough to target such a place wouldn't last long.
 
DebateChallenge said:
Im being punished by having my gun rights infringed upon. If I am prohibited from buying or owning guns that I was previously not prohibited from buying or owning, because of some sick excuse for a human being went and shot up a school, I am being punished because of what the sick excuse for a human being did, not because of anything I did, which isn't fair.


Solutions have been presented many many times before on this forum. Some of the solutions I've proposed is allowing faculty and staff on schools who are legally allowed to carry to be allowed to carry. Having armed security in public places at public events where mass shootings might happen, and so forth.

One public place where I feel most safe is the Jersey shore. Why? Because of all the armed security. Especially during the summer there are tons and tons of people that go to the Jersey shore and the boardwalk and beach are swarmed with people. The kind of place a mass shooter would target IF they didn't have armed security. Yet no mass shooter has ever targeted the Jersey Shore. Why? Most likely because of the tons of armed security on the boardwalk. Not only do they have a mini police station right on the boardwalk but security personnel at the bars are armed. Even the meter maids are armed. A mass shooter who is smart enough would never target such a place. A mass shooter who is dumb enough to target such a place wouldn't last long.
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Blow off with the armed security bullcrap. I've yet to see a carrying law abiding citizen do anything about an active shooter. More people with guns in a scene of chaos when nobody knows who is who? Yeah, that should help.

And finally I'm sorry you can't buy the bazooka you've been eyeing. What did you need it for anyway? Just curious.
 
pinqy said:
Hmmm either you don’t see the flaw in that analogy, which means your reasoning skills are weak, or you don’t care. Possibly both. But it’s possible I’m missing something, so, to be fair:how do you think owning a firearm is similar to driving while impaired? And keep in mind that carrying a firearm while impaired is also illegal in all states that I know of.
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Go back and read my post.

If someone has one beer or a glass of wine or a drink containing one shot of alcohol while driving are they driving impaired? Almost certainly not. Therefore if you have no record of being arrested for drunk driving and you don't drink over the legal limit why should you be prevented from drinking and driving?

I am not advocating drinking and driving but I am using the same logic ...which you missed. Ahem.

Up until mass killers shot people at random most or maybe all were not quilty of mass shootings, most or probably all had not shot up math classes. The point is until you become a mass killer you aren't one. It is my opinion that maybe 99.9% of mass shooters weren't born killers. At some point in their lives, and it didn't suddenly happen overnight, they became capable of and willing to murder scores of innocent people. Until that point they would likely have met the criteria breifly outlined in the OP.

For the record, I am a gun owner.
 
DebateChallenge said:
There has been all this talk here about how guns are used in mass killings, where many innocent people are killed but the fact of the matter is that neither I nor most gun owners in the USA kill innocent people. What with all these school shootings and people ranting and raving that children shouldn't be shot in math class, well as horrible as those shootings are I don't shoot children in math class or anywhere else. Ive never gone on a mass shooting and most gun owners in the USA don't either. Far less than 1 percent of all gun owners in the USA ever shoot innocent people.

When you hear about children being shot in math class, or anywhere else, its horrible. The sad and unfortunate fact is that there are horrible people in this world who do stuff like that. But I am not one of them. As such I should not have my rights to buy and own guns infringed upon.

In short I should not be punished because of what somebody else did with a gun.
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As horrible as they are, mass shootings are not the real issue here, and neither are attacks on schools. Even combined, deaths from these types of attacks are only a small percentage of the total number killed by guns each year in the United States. Large scale violence may grab our attention but it's the individual cases that really add up. America has a problem with gun violence and mass shootings are only one symptom of it. Acting to limit gun distribution and accessibility is a completely rational response to this, and only a fundamentally self centered person would see it as a "punishment".
 
DebateChallenge said:
Sure I should. I should be permitted to drink and to drive all I want provided I do them separately. :)

Doing them together, driving while intoxicated, is a different story. That nobody should be allowed to do.
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I don't know where you live but in most states you cannot legally drink and drive. Period.

Driving while intoxicated is harmful, owning guns is not.
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You are conflating driving and drinking with drunk driving. They are not necessarily the same thing, though they can be and often are. Drinking and driving does not in and of itself mean drunk driving. Yet in most states, if not all, you cannot drink and drive, even if you have never been arrested for drunk driving. So in essence, and following your argument, you are being punished because other people have driven drunk though you have not and do not.
 
DebateChallenge said:
Sure I should. I should be permitted to drink and to drive all I want provided I do them separately. :)

Doing them together, driving while intoxicated, is a different story. That nobody should be allowed to do.

Driving while intoxicated is harmful, owning guns is not.
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Well, carrying a gun while intoxicated is illegal and 3/4 of all murders are committed by those intoxicated.
 
DebateChallenge said:
There has been all this talk here about how guns are used in mass killings, where many innocent people are killed but the fact of the matter is that neither I nor most gun owners in the USA kill innocent people. What with all these school shootings and people ranting and raving that children shouldn't be shot in math class, well as horrible as those shootings are I don't shoot children in math class or anywhere else. Ive never gone on a mass shooting and most gun owners in the USA don't either. Far less than 1 percent of all gun owners in the USA ever shoot innocent people.

When you hear about children being shot in math class, or anywhere else, its horrible. The sad and unfortunate fact is that there are horrible people in this world who do stuff like that. But I am not one of them. As such I should not have my rights to buy and own guns infringed upon.

In short I should not be punished because of what somebody else did with a gun.
Click to expand...

When an uninsured driver gets into an accident, my auto insurance goes up even though I had nothing to do with it. My health insurance increases every year because other people get sick or injured, even though I didn't make them sick or injured.
 
bongsaway said:
You mean like prohibition? Just what and how are you being punished? Who has come and taken your firearms?

What I would like to see is the responsible gun owners come up with some ideas of their own to try to cut down on these mass shootings but as usual, never give an inch. If these mass shootings continue and I see no reason why they won't, at some point the choice will be taken out of the hands of law abiding gun owners. The younger generations will not keep putting up with these mass killings. Social issues are changing in our society and as more and more younger voters emerge the change will speed up.
Click to expand...

Prohibition did not take away a Constitutional right embed into the Bill of Rights. The right to bear arms is in the Bill of Rights (Constitution) and would require a Constitutional amendment to take away that right. Do you see the difference now? Let's review, a drunk driving a vehicle causes an accident. What caused the accident and the death or great bodily injury, the drunk or the car? What do we do? We arrest the drunk and take away the privilege to drive, not the car. The car didn't kill or injure. It was a tool for the injuries. The drunk is 100% at fault. Same with guns. Difference, driving is a privilege, not a right. Gun ownership is a right, not a privilege.

You won't cure gun violence by prohibition. Criminals will still either buy them or make them. They will use other devices such as knives, fire, bombs and whatever else they want to come up with. The problem, like the drunk, is 100% the criminal's mind. Guns don't shoot people. People shoot people as well as they drive cars and trucks into people. Do we outlaw cars and trucks, knives and so on? The cause is and always has been drugs, alcohol and mental illness. Getting rid of guns won't help.
 
DebateChallenge said:
There has been all this talk here about how guns are used in mass killings, where many innocent people are killed but the fact of the matter is that neither I nor most gun owners in the USA kill innocent people. What with all these school shootings and people ranting and raving that children shouldn't be shot in math class, well as horrible as those shootings are I don't shoot children in math class or anywhere else. Ive never gone on a mass shooting and most gun owners in the USA don't either. Far less than 1 percent of all gun owners in the USA ever shoot innocent people.

When you hear about children being shot in math class, or anywhere else, its horrible. The sad and unfortunate fact is that there are horrible people in this world who do stuff like that. But I am not one of them. As such I should not have my rights to buy and own guns infringed upon.

In short I should not be punished because of what somebody else did with a gun.
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No one is one of them until they are.
 
beancounter said:
When an uninsured driver gets into an accident, my auto insurance goes up even though I had nothing to do with it. My health insurance increases every year because other people get sick or injured, even though I didn't make them sick or injured.
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Doesn't make sense. Insurance is a pool of money set aside to pay out for reasons yet unknown. (It's why protecting pre-existing conditions doesn't make sense). It's from that pool that covers your health need if you get sick or injured or your car is damaged or you die. As for guns, there is no pool of risk management that is associated with gun purchases. The price we pay is market based. Are you suggesting that gun sellers should raise prices every time there is a mass shooting? What purpose would that do? Someone crazy enough to shoot a hundred people isn't going to care what the cost of a gun is. They will get the gun illegally. As in Odessa, Texas.
 
DebateChallenge said:
Sure I should. I should be permitted to drink and to drive all I want provided I do them separately. :)

Doing them together, driving while intoxicated, is a different story. That nobody should be allowed to do.

Driving while intoxicated is harmful, owning guns is not.
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Its not harmful until something goes wrong and there is a victim. All those times when my cousin drank and drove ( before he hit that car and it went into a ditch he got behind the wheel plenty of times) prove that the opposite of harm happens more often than harm results. For many people who drink and drive, harm never comes. they should be allowed to drink and drive as often as they like. Government has no business trying to regulate their behavior because someone else hurts a child.
 
DebateChallenge said:
There has been all this talk here about how guns are used in mass killings, where many innocent people are killed but the fact of the matter is that neither I nor most gun owners in the USA kill innocent people. What with all these school shootings and people ranting and raving that children shouldn't be shot in math class, well as horrible as those shootings are I don't shoot children in math class or anywhere else. Ive never gone on a mass shooting and most gun owners in the USA don't either. Far less than 1 percent of all gun owners in the USA ever shoot innocent people.

When you hear about children being shot in math class, or anywhere else, its horrible. The sad and unfortunate fact is that there are horrible people in this world who do stuff like that. But I am not one of them. As such I should not have my rights to buy and own guns infringed upon.

In short I should not be punished because of what somebody else did with a gun.
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I concur 100% who wouldn't? Well I can think of some. But this says it all(and we've seen it many times)YouTube
 
Cougarbear said:
Doesn't make sense. Insurance is a pool of money set aside to pay out for reasons yet unknown. (It's why protecting pre-existing conditions doesn't make sense). It's from that pool that covers your health need if you get sick or injured or your car is damaged or you die. As for guns, there is no pool of risk management that is associated with gun purchases. The price we pay is market based. Are you suggesting that gun sellers should raise prices every time there is a mass shooting? What purpose would that do? Someone crazy enough to shoot a hundred people isn't going to care what the cost of a gun is. They will get the gun illegally. As in Odessa, Texas.
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Insurance is market based...

Someone crazy enough to drive without insurance isn't going to care about the cost of insurance.
 
bongsaway said:
Blow off with the armed security bullcrap. I've yet to see a carrying law abiding citizen do anything about an active shooter. More people with guns in a scene of chaos when nobody knows who is who? Yeah, that should help.
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Why should I blow off something that works? Armed security works.

And law abiding citizens with guns stop bad guys all the time. Usually it doesn't make front page news because such stories aren't newsworthy, although occasionally it does make front page news, such as the Sutherland Shooting in Texas.

bongsaway said:
And finally I'm sorry you can't buy the bazooka you've been eyeing. What did you need it for anyway? Just curious.
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I can buy a bazooka, well actually right now I can't since money is a bit tight but bazookas can be bought by anybody who can afford them. A bazooka is just a pipe and a twelve volt battery.
 
DebateChallenge said:
There has been all this talk here about how guns are used in mass killings, where many innocent people are killed but the fact of the matter is that neither I nor most gun owners in the USA kill innocent people. What with all these school shootings and people ranting and raving that children shouldn't be shot in math class, well as horrible as those shootings are I don't shoot children in math class or anywhere else. Ive never gone on a mass shooting and most gun owners in the USA don't either. Far less than 1 percent of all gun owners in the USA ever shoot innocent people.

When you hear about children being shot in math class, or anywhere else, its horrible. The sad and unfortunate fact is that there are horrible people in this world who do stuff like that. But I am not one of them. As such I should not have my rights to buy and own guns infringed upon.

In short I should not be punished because of what somebody else did with a gun.
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I am a legal citizen. I should be able to go back and forth across the border without getting expensive paperwork. I should not be punished like I am illegal
 
Risky Thicket said:
Go back and read my post.

If someone has one beer or a glass of wine or a drink containing one shot of alcohol while driving are they driving impaired? Almost certainly not. Therefore if you have no record of being arrested for drunk driving and you don't drink over the legal limit why should you be prevented from drinking and driving?
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That depends on the state. In some states you can drink alcoholic beverages and drive at the same time as long as your BAC doesn't go over the legal limit. In other states you can't. Then there are some states where with any car that's being driven if there's any alcohol in the car it has to be in closed containers. The laws vary but this is a state matter.

Risky Thicket said:
Up until mass killers shot people at random most or maybe all were not quilty of mass shootings, most or probably all had not shot up math classes. The point is until you become a mass killer you aren't one.
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Obviously

Risky Thicket said:
It is my opinion that maybe 99.9% of mass shooters weren't born killers.
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100% of mass shooters weren't born killers. Nobody is born a killer. When you're born you haven't killed anybody. Your point?

Risky Thicket said:
At some point in their lives, and it didn't suddenly happen overnight, they became capable of and willing to murder scores of innocent people. Until that point they would likely have met the criteria breifly outlined in the OP.
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Not necessarily. Many mass shooters have had run-ins with the law prior to going on mass shootings and many of these run-ins might've prevented them from legally possessing firearms. Sure, there are mass shooters who have had no run-ins with the law before doing mass shootings but in this country, the wonderful awesome USA, we give people the benefit of the doubt, its called being innocent until proven guilty.

Risky Thicket said:
For the record, I am a gun owner.
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Right, and Im the King of Siam.
 
Irredentist said:
As horrible as they are, mass shootings are not the real issue here, and neither are attacks on schools. Even combined, deaths from these types of attacks are only a small percentage of the total number killed by guns each year in the United States. Large scale violence may grab our attention but it's the individual cases that really add up. America has a problem with gun violence and mass shootings are only one symptom of it. Acting to limit gun distribution and accessibility is a completely rational response to this, and only a fundamentally self centered person would see it as a "punishment".
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True, most gun deaths in the USA are suicides, as many as two thirds. So if you cut out suicides you reduce gun deaths to a third of what they are.

And yes limiting gun distribution and accessibility is a good rational response, as long as me and everybody else who has done nothing wrong is not included in those limits. If you limit somebody's access to guns who hasn't done anything wrong you're unjustly punishing that person.
 
DebateChallenge said:
True, most gun deaths in the USA are suicides, as many as two thirds. So if you cut out suicides you reduce gun deaths to a third of what they are.
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Let's use gun control to help reduce the suicides
 
=bongsaway;1070580282]You mean like prohibition? Just what and how are you being punished? Who has come and taken your firearms?
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It's not WHO has come it's WHO all wants to come and will if they get the chance and their people in place.
What I would like to see is the responsible gun owners come up with some ideas of their own to try to cut down on these mass shootings but as usual,
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We have plenty of responsible gun owners with plenty of ideas,but as usual since they are our ideas they aren't good enough. It seems the only ideas should come from the lefty's. It's what you like to call "compromise". Our way or else which is the compromise.
never give an inch.
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And that is the problem...For every inch we give you guys take twelve.
If these mass shootings continue and I see no reason why they won't
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Of course they continue when they are glorified 24/7 on the news and people keep dropping the ball.
at some point the choice will be taken out of the hands of law abiding gun owners.
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And left in the very capable hands the the anti gun people?
The younger generations will not keep putting up with these mass killings.
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Is that why the left wants to do away with the electoral college vote? So the big (D) run city's can run rough shod over us?
Social issues are changing in our society and as more and more younger voters emerge the change will speed up.
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Hence all the young (and not so young) and upcoming socialist we are getting in congress.
 
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