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I should not be punished for other people's actions

dave8383 said:
If society decides that AR15s are too dangerous because too many incidents involving them have hurt too many people, then that's what society decides, and you're out of luck. Just like driving too fast.
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So it makes no difference to you whether or not such a ban makes sense? I find that disturbing.
 
pinqy said:
So it makes no difference to you whether or not such a ban makes sense? I find that disturbing.
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If it doesn't make sense to drive at 135 MPH on a deserted highway why doesn't it make sense not to have a firearm that nutjobs have used to hurt so many Americans?
 
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dave8383 said:
If it doesn't make sense to drive at 135 MPH on a deserted highway why doesn't it make sense not to have a firearm that nutjobs have used to hurt so many Americans?
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Because in the first case, it is an inherently dangerous action. In the second case it’s not.

The proper analogy would be banning red cars because most speeders drive red cars (ok, they don’t, actually, but the point is valid).

Just because many mass shooters (a tiny percent of all firearm murders) used AR-15 or similar, doesn’t mean the AR-15 is dangerous, just that it’s a very popular style. Eliminate them, and nut jobs will have a new favorite.
 
dave8383 said:
If society decides that AR15s are too dangerous because too many incidents involving them have hurt too many people, then that's what society decides, and you're out of luck. Just like driving too fast.
Click to expand...


That's really stupid but you know it is. They'd have to change the constitution
 
dave8383 said:
If it doesn't make sense to drive at 135 MPH on a deserted highway why doesn't it make sense not to have a firearm that nutjobs have used to hurt so many Americans?
Click to expand...

you're lying again, AR 15s are rarely used to hurt other people.
 
DebateChallenge said:
There has been all this talk here about how guns are used in mass killings, where many innocent people are killed but the fact of the matter is that neither I nor most gun owners in the USA kill innocent people. What with all these school shootings and people ranting and raving that children shouldn't be shot in math class, well as horrible as those shootings are I don't shoot children in math class or anywhere else. Ive never gone on a mass shooting and most gun owners in the USA don't either. Far less than 1 percent of all gun owners in the USA ever shoot innocent people.

When you hear about children being shot in math class, or anywhere else, its horrible. The sad and unfortunate fact is that there are horrible people in this world who do stuff like that. But I am not one of them. As such I should not have my rights to buy and own guns infringed upon.

In short I should not be punished because of what somebody else did with a gun.
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Why should guns be any different than anything else society deems that we can't use or do?
 
SCrider said:
Why should guns be any different than anything else society deems that we can't use or do?
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because of the constitution

society once deemed blacks could not marry whites

that women couldn't kill their unborn fetuses

that gays couldn't serve in the military or get married

next...
 
pinqy said:
In what way do you think they are different?
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mainly because those who advocate on behalf of those who own them, tend to vote in a way different than the person you are addressing
 
dave8383 said:
If society decides that AR15s are too dangerous because too many incidents involving them have hurt too many people, then that's what society decides, and you're out of luck. Just like driving too fast.
Click to expand...

So far society hasn't decided that.
 
SCrider said:
Why should guns be any different than anything else society deems that we can't use or do?
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Because of the Constitution, specifically the 2nd Article in the Bill Of Rights, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
 
dave8383 said:
You're lying again.
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well lets see who is engaging in mendacity. There are millions of AR 15s in the USA. they have been widely available for over 50 years. Less than 2 percent of all murders involve long arms (shotguns-all types, rifles-all types). We know that there are approximately 10-12K murders a year. So in fifty years, there have been about 500k to 600K murders in the years that the AR 15 has been available in a country with over 300 million people.

Now two percent of say 550K is what-11,000. Now that is all long arms. So in 50 years, there have been about 11000. So even if every single murder involving a rifle or shotgun actually involved an AR 15. that means about 220 murders a year with the most popular rifle in America.

It is you who is lying.
 
TurtleDude said:
well lets see who is engaging in mendacity. There are millions of AR 15s in the USA. they have been widely available for over 50 years. Less than 2 percent of all murders involve long arms (shotguns-all types, rifles-all types). We know that there are approximately 10-12K murders a year. So in fifty years, there have been about 500k to 600K murders in the years that the AR 15 has been available in a country with over 300 million people.

Now two percent of say 550K is what-11,000. Now that is all long arms. So in 50 years, there have been about 11000. So even if every single murder involving a rifle or shotgun actually involved an AR 15. that means about 220 murders a year with the most popular rifle in America.

It is you who is lying.
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Stop lying.

"What makes the AR-15 style rifle the weapon of choice for ...

Live, breaking news today: Latest national headlines, world news and more from CBSNews.com and watch the CBSN live news stream 24x7 › 60 Minutes › Newsmakers
Jun 23, 2019 - Scott Pelley reports on why the high-velocity rounds used in the gun ... In other mass killings the AR-15 was fired without a bump stock, but ...
Why the AR-15 keeps appearing at America's deadliest mass ...

USA TODAY: Latest World and US News - USATODAY.com › nation › 2018/02/14 › ar-15-mass-shootings
Feb 14, 2018 - AR-15-style rifles have been used in multiple mass shootings in recent years, including the high school shooting in Parkland, Florida. See why.
Mass Shootings with the AR-15

https://www.arcgis.com › apps › MapJournal
I did some research about the mass killings that been happening using the AR- 15 over the years and i would like to tell you about them. The main four I would be ...
Are AR-15 Rifles a Public Safety Threat? Here's What the Data ...

Home - Foundation for Economic Education › articles › are-ar-15-rifles-a-public-safety-threat-heres-what...
Jan 11, 2019 - Between 2007 and 2017, nearly 1700 people were murdered with a knife or ... Given the massive amount of carnage AR-15s and similar rifles ...
Many Of The Worst Mass Shootings In Recent Memory All ...

Kaiser Health News › morning-breakout › many-of-the-worst-mass-shootings-i...
Jun 24, 2019 - The AR-15 style rifle is the most popular rifle in America. ... first reported last November, the AR-15 is the choice of our worst mass murderers.
With AR-15s, Mass Shooters Attack With the Rifle Firepower ...

https://www.nytimes.com › 2018/02/28 › ar-15-rifle-mass-shootings
Feb 28, 2018 - 14, he was carrying an AR-15-style rifle that allowed him to fire upon ... Since 2007, at least 173 people have been killed in mass shootings in ...
Dayton shooter's gun is the reason he killed 9 in 30 seconds ...

https://www.nbcnews.com › think › opinion › dayton-shooter-s-gun-reaso...
Aug 6, 2019 - AR-15 rifles on display at the Nation's Gun Show in Chantilly, Virginia, ... to downplay how often their products put the “mass” in “mass killings.
Latest mass shootings all have AR-15 in common | The ...

https://www.seattletimes.com › nation-world › latest-mass-shootings-all-have...
Feb 15, 2018 - As of this week, seven of the 10 deadliest mass shootings in modern U.S. history have all happened since 2007. And the latest, most serious ..."
 
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dave8383 said:
Stop lying.

"What makes the AR-15 style rifle the weapon of choice for ...

Live, breaking news today: Latest national headlines, world news and more from CBSNews.com and watch the CBSN live news stream 24x7 › 60 Minutes › Newsmakers
Jun 23, 2019 - Scott Pelley reports on why the high-velocity rounds used in the gun ... In other mass killings the AR-15 was fired without a bump stock, but ...
Why the AR-15 keeps appearing at America's deadliest mass ...

USA TODAY: Latest World and US News - USATODAY.com › nation › 2018/02/14 › ar-15-mass-shootings
Feb 14, 2018 - AR-15-style rifles have been used in multiple mass shootings in recent years, including the high school shooting in Parkland, Florida. See why.
Mass Shootings with the AR-15

https://www.arcgis.com › apps › MapJournal
I did some research about the mass killings that been happening using the AR- 15 over the years and i would like to tell you about them. The main four I would be ...
Are AR-15 Rifles a Public Safety Threat? Here's What the Data ...

Home - Foundation for Economic Education › articles › are-ar-15-rifles-a-public-safety-threat-heres-what...
Jan 11, 2019 - Between 2007 and 2017, nearly 1700 people were murdered with a knife or ... Given the massive amount of carnage AR-15s and similar rifles ...
Many Of The Worst Mass Shootings In Recent Memory All ...

Kaiser Health News › morning-breakout › many-of-the-worst-mass-shootings-i...
Jun 24, 2019 - The AR-15 style rifle is the most popular rifle in America. ... first reported last November, the AR-15 is the choice of our worst mass murderers.
With AR-15s, Mass Shooters Attack With the Rifle Firepower ...

https://www.nytimes.com › 2018/02/28 › ar-15-rifle-mass-shootings
Feb 28, 2018 - 14, he was carrying an AR-15-style rifle that allowed him to fire upon ... Since 2007, at least 173 people have been killed in mass shootings in ...
Dayton shooter's gun is the reason he killed 9 in 30 seconds ...

https://www.nbcnews.com › think › opinion › dayton-shooter-s-gun-reaso...
Aug 6, 2019 - AR-15 rifles on display at the Nation's Gun Show in Chantilly, Virginia, ... to downplay how often their products put the “mass” in “mass killings.
Latest mass shootings all have AR-15 in common | The ...

https://www.seattletimes.com › nation-world › latest-mass-shootings-all-have...
Feb 15, 2018 - As of this week, seven of the 10 deadliest mass shootings in modern U.S. history have all happened since 2007. And the latest, most serious ..."
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wow, this shows your mendacity. less than two percent of all murders. Your claim is bogus and it doesn't refute what I said. But gun banners are not known for truthful comments.
 
TurtleDude said:
wow, this shows your mendacity. less than two percent of all murders. Your claim is bogus and it doesn't refute what I said. But gun banners are not known for truthful comments.
Click to expand...

Your claim is bogus. The AR15 is the weapon of choice for mass murders in this country. Over and over again we have a mass killing event and what do we find out? The killer used an AR15. You're fooling no one.

"Dayton shooter's gun is the reason he killed 9 in 30 seconds — and gun-makers know it
Aug. 6, 2019, 5:44 PM EDT

Once again, lone gunmen armed with (legally purchased) military-style assault weapons were able to quickly kill unarmed civilians in two mass shootings this past weekend. The fact that the Dayton shooter was killed within 30 seconds of firing his first shot — and yet was still able to kill nine people within that short period of time, injuring dozens more — makes plainly visible what military veterans like myself have long understood: Assault rifles are uniquely lethal because they’re designed to kill as many humans as possible, as quickly as possible.

The message for consumers is clear: If you want to be a badass, all you need to do is buy a semi-automatic assault rifle with a high capacity magazine. You can pretend that you’re a Navy SEAL or an Army Ranger without suffering the inconvenience of early morning wake-ups, tough training and demanding standards.
."

Dayton shooter'''s gun is the reason he killed 9 in 30 seconds — and gun-makers know it
 
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dave8383 said:
Your claim is bogus. The AR15 is the weapon of choice for mass murders in this country. Over and over again we have a mass killing event and what do we find out? The killer used an AR15. You're fooling no one.

"Dayton shooter's gun is the reason he killed 9 in 30 seconds — and gun-makers know it
Aug. 6, 2019, 5:44 PM EDT

Once again, lone gunmen armed with (legally purchased) military-style assault weapons were able to quickly kill unarmed civilians in two mass shootings this past weekend. The fact that the Dayton shooter was killed within 30 seconds of firing his first shot — and yet was still able to kill nine people within that short period of time, injuring dozens more — makes plainly visible what military veterans like myself have long understood: Assault rifles are uniquely lethal because they’re designed to kill as many humans as possible, as quickly as possible.

The message for consumers is clear: If you want to be a badass, all you need to do is buy a semi-automatic assault rifle with a high capacity magazine. You can pretend that you’re a Navy SEAL or an Army Ranger without suffering the inconvenience of early morning wake-ups, tough training and demanding standards.
."

Dayton shooter'''s gun is the reason he killed 9 in 30 seconds — and gun-makers know it
Click to expand...

How many people have been killed with an AR-15 in the last year?
 
daeler said:
How many people have been killed with an AR-15 in the last year?
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Too many.

You can look up which nutjobs used an AR15:

"There have been more mass shootings than days this year
September 1, 2019 / 4:13 PM
By Jason Silverstein

The number of mass shootings across the U.S. thus far in 2019 has outpaced the number of days this year, according to a gun violence research group. This puts 2019 on pace to be the first year since 2016 with an average of more than one mass shooting a day.

As of September 1, which was the 244th day of the year, there have been 283 mass shootings in the U.S., according to data from the nonprofit Gun Violence Archive (GVA), which tracks every mass shooting in the country. The GVA defines a mass shooting as any incident in which at least four people were shot, excluding the shooter.

The toll of 283 mass shootings includes several high-profile, mass casualty attacks, two of which happened within 24 hours of each other:

A drive-by shooting spree in Odessa and Midland, Texas, on August 31, with seven people killed and 24 wounded
A shooting in a historic district of Dayton, Ohio, on August 4, with nine people killed and 27 injured.
A shooting at Walmart in El Paso, Texas, on August 3, with 22 people killed and at least 24 wounded. It was the deadliest shooting of the year.
A shooting in a municipal building in Virginia Beach, on May 31, where a former city employee killed 12 people and wounded four."


Mass shootings in U.S. 2019: There have been more mass shootings than days this year, according to Gun Violence Archive - CBS News
 
dave8383 said:
Too many.

You can look up which nutjobs used an AR15:

"There have been more mass shootings than days this year
September 1, 2019 / 4:13 PM
By Jason Silverstein

The number of mass shootings across the U.S. thus far in 2019 has outpaced the number of days this year, according to a gun violence research group. This puts 2019 on pace to be the first year since 2016 with an average of more than one mass shooting a day.

As of September 1, which was the 244th day of the year, there have been 283 mass shootings in the U.S., according to data from the nonprofit Gun Violence Archive (GVA), which tracks every mass shooting in the country. The GVA defines a mass shooting as any incident in which at least four people were shot, excluding the shooter.

The toll of 283 mass shootings includes several high-profile, mass casualty attacks, two of which happened within 24 hours of each other:

A drive-by shooting spree in Odessa and Midland, Texas, on August 31, with seven people killed and 24 wounded
A shooting in a historic district of Dayton, Ohio, on August 4, with nine people killed and 27 injured.
A shooting at Walmart in El Paso, Texas, on August 3, with 22 people killed and at least 24 wounded. It was the deadliest shooting of the year.
A shooting in a municipal building in Virginia Beach, on May 31, where a former city employee killed 12 people and wounded four."


Mass shootings in U.S. 2019: There have been more mass shootings than days this year, according to Gun Violence Archive - CBS News
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Ok so you have no idea how many people were killed last year by an AR-15 yet you consider it to be one of the worst weapons and one of the most dangerous weapons?

as for all the mass shootings, I hate that they consider 3 people to be labeled a mass shooting. If a gang member goes to a rival gang shoots 2 people and is shot in return they label that a mass shooting.

Take away the AR-15 and people will just find another gun that other people find scary. More stringent gun control might help some of the problem, mostly with suicides, but bans will just change the weapon.

I believe around 300 people have been killed with an AR-15 in the last year, maybe less. take a guess as to how many have died from a 9mm handgun.
 
dave8383 said:
Too many.

You can look up which nutjobs used an AR15:

"There have been more mass shootings than days this year
September 1, 2019 / 4:13 PM
By Jason Silverstein

The number of mass shootings across the U.S. thus far in 2019 has outpaced the number of days this year, according to a gun violence research group. This puts 2019 on pace to be the first year since 2016 with an average of more than one mass shooting a day.

As of September 1, which was the 244th day of the year, there have been 283 mass shootings in the U.S., according to data from the nonprofit Gun Violence Archive (GVA), which tracks every mass shooting in the country. The GVA defines a mass shooting as any incident in which at least four people were shot, excluding the shooter.

The toll of 283 mass shootings includes several high-profile, mass casualty attacks, two of which happened within 24 hours of each other:

A drive-by shooting spree in Odessa and Midland, Texas, on August 31, with seven people killed and 24 wounded
A shooting in a historic district of Dayton, Ohio, on August 4, with nine people killed and 27 injured.
A shooting at Walmart in El Paso, Texas, on August 3, with 22 people killed and at least 24 wounded. It was the deadliest shooting of the year.
A shooting in a municipal building in Virginia Beach, on May 31, where a former city employee killed 12 people and wounded four."


Mass shootings in U.S. 2019: There have been more mass shootings than days this year, according to Gun Violence Archive - CBS News
Click to expand...
Latest full data available is 2017, so let’s start there
January 6, Ft Lauderdale airport: 5 deaths, 9mm pistol
March 22, Schofield Wisconsin: 5 dead, handgun, UI long gun
April 19, San Bernardino: 3 deaths, .357 magnum revolver
April, Fresno: 4 dead, .357 magnum revolver
May 12, Kirkersville, Ohio: 4 dead, shotgun
May 27, Lincoln County MS 8 dead UI handgun
June 5, Orlando: 6 dead, handgun
June 6, Sandy Utah: 3 dead, UI GUN
June 8, Eaton township, PA: 4 dead, shotguns
June 14, Alexandria, VA: 6 wounded, SKS rifle, 9 mm pistol
June 14, San Francisco, 4 dead, semi-auto MAC-10.
June 30, NYC, 2 dead, AR-15 style .223
July 1 Little Rock, 28 injured, AK pistol
August 28, Clovis, NM 2dead, handgun
September 10, Plano, 9 dead, AR-15, shotgun, .380 pistol
September 24, Antioch TN 1 dead 8 wounded, 9mm pistol, .40 pistol
October 1 Las Vegas, 59 dead, AR-15 type, AR-10 type, .308 bolt action rifle, .38 revolver
November 5 Sutherland Springs, TX 27 dead, Ruger AR-556
November Tehama CA 6 dead .40 pistol, .45 pistol, AR-15 style
December 7 Aztec NM 3 dead, 9mm pistol
December 31, Highlands Ranch CO 2 dead, AR-15 style

So, out of 157 dead in mass shootings in 2017, AR-15 style was used (though not usually solely) in the deaths of 105. And that’s counting the AR-556 as an AR-15 style, which it’s not. (Gas piston, not direct impingement)

Total murders in US in 2017: 15,129
By firearm: 10,982
By rifle: 403

So how is that not a tiny percentage? 105 killed in mass shooting where an AR-15 style was used is more significant to you than 1,549 stabbings, 7,032 handgun murders.

You have some odd priorities.


Sources
List of mass shootings in the United States - Wikipedia
FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
 
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pinqy said:
.................... an AR-15 style was used is more significant to you than 1,549 stabbings.................
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Oh I know, knives are so much more dangerous than AR15s that the Marines are going to toss their M4s and only carry a knife in combat.
 
dave8383 said:
Oh I know, knives are so much more dangerous than AR15s that the Marines are going to toss their M4s and only carry a knife in combat.
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A weapon isn’t dangerous unless it’s used. Fact remains, more people are killed by knives than by AR-15s

And Marines are issued knives.
 
dave8383 said:
If society decides that AR15s are too dangerous because too many incidents involving them have hurt too many people, then that's what society decides, and you're out of luck. Just like driving too fast.
Click to expand...
AR15s to dangerous? When do Mini 14s become to dangerous(same thing just different configuration). Hell OR. would call an old 995 Hi-Point I have to dangerous simply because of a pistol grip and detachable magazine and evil(looking?) barrel shroud and the fact that it's black(very racist) if no other reason.
" If society decides " AR15s are to dangerous soon all semi autos and bolt action rifles with scopes will be also. Everything I have are semi autos. and have 1-3 evil characteristics.
 
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