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Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation a higher murder rate?

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joko104

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I only put this on the gun thread because that usually is the context of the topic of murder - and to not clutter the top of the board with it.

Is it possible that the more freedom people have and the more wealth and economic opportunity there is - does this somehow inevitably result in higher murder rates?

Thru all of history there has always been genocidal, psychotic, sociopathic, psychologically disturbed and/or sadist people who commit senseless murders for which regardless of motive, there is a desire to commit murder, indiscriminate murder and mass murder. That somehow that is in human genetics to some degree or another, some percentage or another - and the question is how much can a person control the desire - and how strong is that desire?

If a person feels "free," they feel free to think freely - and may have a greatly heightened sense of unfairness and seeing themselves as a victim including by society. If things are fair, why is everyone and everything so unfair to him. If everyone has so much opportunity, why doesn't he? He can develop this personae further and further from reality on social media. If added to this is a reclusive and regressive personality leading to social isolation, everyone he blames - other students, society, people of some race or religion or other religion, a certain gender, some political reason, type of music they like - whatever - the element of freedom and national prosperity - becomes the focus of his intensifying desire to commit murder.

I bet the murder rate (excluding by government) is much lower in North Korea and China where people are less free and have less hope of great personal career choice and economic prosperity.

Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation that this inherently lends itself to a higher murder rate?
 
No.


A higher CRIME rate, of which murder is just one type, is indicative of greater competition for scarce resources.

What's the number 1 reason for murder? Gang related, which is related to the drug trade.

Why do people turn to that? Lack of better options.
 
Japan has a very low murder rate. The Japanese people are doing well economically. You can say the same about Britain and Germany.

America is an anomaly. Who knows why we're so violent?
 
joko104 said:
I only put this on the gun thread because that usually is the context of the topic of murder - and to not clutter the top of the board with it.

Is it possible that the more freedom people have and the more wealth and economic opportunity there is - does this somehow inevitably result in higher murder rates?

Thru all of history there has always been genocidal, psychotic, sociopathic, psychologically disturbed and/or sadist people who commit senseless murders for which regardless of motive, there is a desire to commit murder, indiscriminate murder and mass murder. That somehow that is in human genetics to some degree or another, some percentage or another - and the question is how much can a person control the desire - and how strong is that desire?

If a person feels "free," they feel free to think freely - and may have a greatly heightened sense of unfairness and seeing themselves as a victim including by society. If things are fair, why is everyone and everything so unfair to him. If everyone has so much opportunity, why doesn't he? He can develop this personae further and further from reality on social media. If added to this is a reclusive and regressive personality leading to social isolation, everyone he blames - other students, society, people of some race or religion or other religion, a certain gender, some political reason, type of music they like - whatever - the element of freedom and national prosperity - becomes the focus of his intensifying desire to commit murder.

I bet the murder rate (excluding by government) is much lower in North Korea and China where people are less free and have less hope of great personal career choice and economic prosperity.

Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation that this inherently lends itself to a higher murder rate?
Click to expand...

How do we stack up against El Salvador?
 
joko104 said:
I only put this on the gun thread because that usually is the context of the topic of murder - and to not clutter the top of the board with it.

Is it possible that the more freedom people have and the more wealth and economic opportunity there is - does this somehow inevitably result in higher murder rates?

Thru all of history there has always been genocidal, psychotic, sociopathic, psychologically disturbed and/or sadist people who commit senseless murders for which regardless of motive, there is a desire to commit murder, indiscriminate murder and mass murder. That somehow that is in human genetics to some degree or another, some percentage or another - and the question is how much can a person control the desire - and how strong is that desire?

If a person feels "free," they feel free to think freely - and may have a greatly heightened sense of unfairness and seeing themselves as a victim including by society. If things are fair, why is everyone and everything so unfair to him. If everyone has so much opportunity, why doesn't he? He can develop this personae further and further from reality on social media. If added to this is a reclusive and regressive personality leading to social isolation, everyone he blames - other students, society, people of some race or religion or other religion, a certain gender, some political reason, type of music they like - whatever - the element of freedom and national prosperity - becomes the focus of his intensifying desire to commit murder.

I bet the murder rate (excluding by government) is much lower in North Korea and China where people are less free and have less hope of great personal career choice and economic prosperity.

Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation that this inherently lends itself to a higher murder rate?
Click to expand...

Well your premise is freedom and wealth of a nation leads to a higher murder rate when the price to purchase a fire arm is just may a couple of a hundred of dollars. Now maybe your comment of freedom has merit, but wealth? How does wealth have anything to do with anything in regards to firearms when one can be purchased for just a couple of a hundred dollars (and maybe even less if the firearms is illegal)?
 
joko104 said:
I only put this on the gun thread because that usually is the context of the topic of murder - and to not clutter the top of the board with it.

Is it possible that the more freedom people have and the more wealth and economic opportunity there is - does this somehow inevitably result in higher murder rates?

Thru all of history there has always been genocidal, psychotic, sociopathic, psychologically disturbed and/or sadist people who commit senseless murders for which regardless of motive, there is a desire to commit murder, indiscriminate murder and mass murder. That somehow that is in human genetics to some degree or another, some percentage or another - and the question is how much can a person control the desire - and how strong is that desire?

If a person feels "free," they feel free to think freely - and may have a greatly heightened sense of unfairness and seeing themselves as a victim including by society. If things are fair, why is everyone and everything so unfair to him. If everyone has so much opportunity, why doesn't he? He can develop this personae further and further from reality on social media. If added to this is a reclusive and regressive personality leading to social isolation, everyone he blames - other students, society, people of some race or religion or other religion, a certain gender, some political reason, type of music they like - whatever - the element of freedom and national prosperity - becomes the focus of his intensifying desire to commit murder.

I bet the murder rate (excluding by government) is much lower in North Korea and China where people are less free and have less hope of great personal career choice and economic prosperity.

Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation that this inherently lends itself to a higher murder rate?
Click to expand...

The United States does not have a high murder rate. There are 88 countries with higher murder rates than the United States and 6 countries with more murders (we have the third highest population).
 
clearly, obviously, unequivocally no - and it's a really stupid question
 
Sheepdog said:
The United States does not have a high murder rate. There are 88 countries with higher murder rates than the United States and 6 countries with more murders (we have the third highest population).
Click to expand...

Yay we beat el Salvador. Lol
 
Sheepdog said:
The United States does not have a high murder rate. There are 88 countries with higher murder rates than the United States and 6 countries with more murders (we have the third highest population).
Click to expand...

It does when you compare like to like; i.e. other wealthy, industrialized 'first world' countries.
 
Praxas said:
Well your premise is freedom and wealth of a nation leads to a higher murder rate when the price to purchase a fire arm is just may a couple of a hundred of dollars. Now maybe your comment of freedom has merit, but wealth? How does wealth have anything to do with anything in regards to firearms when one can be purchased for just a couple of a hundred dollars (and maybe even less if the firearms is illegal)?
Click to expand...

I don't think the cost of a firearm has any relevancy to the question. The question is not murder by gun, but murder. Possibly suicide deaths (by any means) also may be part of the question.

I am pondering a question, not declaring a conclusion.

For example, many people commit suicide out of depression about their life. Yet the person has housing, food, TV, Internet, cell phone, utilities, decent clothing, a vehicle... but feel desperate. Setting aside bad relationship as one reason, how it that in relation to others in the world - and certainly world history - they are at the top of the heap economically - BUT not in relation to all the wealthier people around them and as portrayed on TV.
 
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swing_voter said:
Japan has a very low murder rate. The Japanese people are doing well economically. You can say the same about Britain and Germany.

America is an anomaly. Who knows why we're so violent?
Click to expand...

Americans are violent because it is hardwired into the culture. America was born in bloodshed; killing the native people and rebelling against the legal authority of Parliament and the Crown. America didn't slowly expand from sea to shining sea without tons of blood being shed. America didn't cement its unity without soaking the ground in blood. Violence or the threat thereof is how you clear the way West for the women folk and the children. It's how you protect what's yours. Or what you've decided is yours. If you've got a gun you have the power and if it means saying **** the laws, so be it. We are violent simply because we contine to do things the way we've aways done them.
 
Surrealistik said:
It does when you compare like to like; i.e. other wealthy, industrialized 'first world' countries.
Click to expand...

Those countries dont have inner city black gang issues. I would hardly accuse our problem areas of being a victim of wealth. Our inner city, democrat-run **** holes are more similar to **** holes like where Ilhan Omar is from.
 
kitsune said:
Americans are violent because it is hardwired into the culture. America was born in bloodshed; killing the native people and rebelling against the legal authority of Parliament and the Crown. America didn't slowly expand from sea to shining sea without tons of blood being shed. America didn't cement its unity without soaking the ground in blood. Violence or the threat thereof is how you clear the way West for the women folk and the children. It's how you protect what's yours. Or what you've decided is yours. If you've got a gun you have the power and if it means saying **** the laws, so be it. We are violent simply because we contine to do things the way we've aways done them.
Click to expand...

no country on this Earth established itself or has remained intact without the shedding of blood for similar, or even identical reasons. the difference is - some of those countries kept progressing while we stopped sometime like 50 years ago.
 
nekrodev said:
no country on this Earth established itself or has remained intact without the shedding of blood for similar, or even identical reasons. the difference is - some of those countries kept progressing while we stopped sometime like 50 years ago.
Click to expand...

you mean when the LBJ welfare-socialist state was firmly installed?
 
joko104 said:
I don't think the cost of a firearm has any relevancy to the question. The question is not murder by gun, but murder. Possibly suicide deaths (by any means) also may be part of the question.

I am pondering a question, not declaring a conclusion.

For example, many people commit suicide out of depression about their life. Yet the person has housing, food, TV, Internet, cell phone, utilities, decent clothing, a vehicle... but feel desperate. Setting aside bad relationship as one reason, how it that in relation to others in the world - and certainly world history - they are at the top of the heap economically - BUT not in relation to all the wealthier people around them and as portrayed on TV.
Click to expand...

You claimed wealth is the problem for guns. So how can that be when guns are cheap.
 
nekrodev said:
no country on this Earth established itself or has remained intact without the shedding of blood for similar, or even identical reasons. the difference is - some of those countries kept progressing while we stopped sometime like 50 years ago.
Click to expand...

You're right and that's exactly my point. America is young and violent. So far there has been no effective counterweight to the idea that having the power of life and death at your hip makes you the determiner of of what is right The fact that you can intimidate or kill your oponent is the difference between being a slave and being a man. Doesn't matter who your opponent is or what his arguement is. It's enough that he opposes you.
 
TurtleDude said:
you mean when the LBJ welfare-socialist state was firmly installed?
Click to expand...

No, I mean when we stopped trying to actually making progress AFTER LBJ. Other countries were already working on universal healthcare, or already had it, many were working on or already had free college, many had tighter gun laws, and better laws in general regarding labor.
 
Sheepdog said:
Those countries dont have inner city black gang issues. I would hardly accuse our problem areas of being a victim of wealth. Our inner city, democrat-run **** holes are more similar to **** holes like where Ilhan Omar is from.
Click to expand...

Gang violence alone doesn't account for the differential, and yes, they do have gang issues as well, even if not to the same extent.
 
swing_voter said:
Japan has a very low murder rate. The Japanese people are doing well economically. You can say the same about Britain and Germany.

America is an anomaly. Who knows why we're so violent?
Click to expand...

Perhaps because none of these countries had a long-thriving system of slavery on their home soil, followed by years of de facto and de jure Jim Crow, followed by de facto economic and cultural ghettoization of its minority slave population who moved to inner-cities of major metropolitan areas to seek out economic opportunities.
 
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nekrodev said:
No, I mean when we stopped trying to actually making progress AFTER LBJ. Other countries were already working on universal healthcare, or already had it, many were working on or already had free college, many had tighter gun laws, and better laws in general regarding labor.
Click to expand...

I oppose the creeping crud of collectivism, welfare socialism, and increasing the nanny state. I consider loss of individual freedom to be contrary to progress. Real progress is more independence
 
kitsune said:
Americans are violent because it is hardwired into the culture. America was born in bloodshed; killing the native people and rebelling against the legal authority of Parliament and the Crown. America didn't slowly expand from sea to shining sea without tons of blood being shed. America didn't cement its unity without soaking the ground in blood. Violence or the threat thereof is how you clear the way West for the women folk and the children. It's how you protect what's yours. Or what you've decided is yours. If you've got a gun you have the power and if it means saying **** the laws, so be it. We are violent simply because we contine to do things the way we've aways done them.
Click to expand...

Too pat an answer by half, kitsune. In terms of the sheer number of people killed by nation states historically, Germany, Japan (and Great Britain) have the United States beat, hands down. And in the case of Japan and Germany, many people still have (and certainly almost all had) living relatives who took part in atrocities, from carrying them out to providing direct support to those who did the bloody business, from the Rape of Nanking to mass-graves of Babi Yar. Yet these societies are still less violent with a lower murder rate overall, guns or no guns.
 
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TurtleDude said:
I oppose the creeping crud of collectivism, welfare socialism, and increasing the nanny state. I consider loss of individual freedom to be contrary to progress. Real progress is more independence
Click to expand...

Read: You support the stagnation and/or degradation of our nation for the sake of selfish and stupid reasons.
 
nekrodev said:
Read: You support the stagnation and/or degradation of our nation for the sake of selfish and stupid reasons.
Click to expand...

Nothing is more selfish than demanding others pay for your existence.
 
Felis Leo said:
Too pat an answer by half, kitsune. In terms of the sheer number of people killed by nation states historically, Germany, Japan (and Great Britain) have the United States beat, hands down. And in the case of Japan and Germany, many people still have (and certainly almost all had) living relatives who took part in atrocities, from Babi Yar to Nanking. Yet these societies are still less violent with a lower murder rate overall, guns or no guns.
Click to expand...
It's not a numbers issue, it's a cultural issue.

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