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Thread: Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation a higher murder rate?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation a higher murder rate?

    Quote Originally Posted by nekrodev View Post
    No, I mean when we stopped trying to actually making progress AFTER LBJ. Other countries were already working on universal healthcare, or already had it, many were working on or already had free college, many had tighter gun laws, and better laws in general regarding labor.
    I oppose the creeping crud of collectivism, welfare socialism, and increasing the nanny state. I consider loss of individual freedom to be contrary to progress. Real progress is more independence
    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Yeah; a shotgun IS a rifle; it uses a different load.
    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    You know that Reagan signed the Brady Bill - right?
    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    The only "sport" that most gun owners participate in is suicide or murder.

  2. #22
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    Re: Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation a higher murder rate?

    Quote Originally Posted by kitsune View Post
    Americans are violent because it is hardwired into the culture. America was born in bloodshed; killing the native people and rebelling against the legal authority of Parliament and the Crown. America didn't slowly expand from sea to shining sea without tons of blood being shed. America didn't cement its unity without soaking the ground in blood. Violence or the threat thereof is how you clear the way West for the women folk and the children. It's how you protect what's yours. Or what you've decided is yours. If you've got a gun you have the power and if it means saying **** the laws, so be it. We are violent simply because we contine to do things the way we've aways done them.
    Too pat an answer by half, kitsune. In terms of the sheer number of people killed by nation states historically, Germany, Japan (and Great Britain) have the United States beat, hands down. And in the case of Japan and Germany, many people still have (and certainly almost all had) living relatives who took part in atrocities, from carrying them out to providing direct support to those who did the bloody business, from the Rape of Nanking to mass-graves of Babi Yar. Yet these societies are still less violent with a lower murder rate overall, guns or no guns.
    Last edited by Felis Leo; 08-18-19 at 11:27 PM.
    Itís in the small things that the rot starts. Do the wrong thing once, itís easier to do it again. Do the individualistic thing once, it is easy to do it again.

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  3. #23
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    Re: Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation a higher murder rate?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I oppose the creeping crud of collectivism, welfare socialism, and increasing the nanny state. I consider loss of individual freedom to be contrary to progress. Real progress is more independence
    Read: You support the stagnation and/or degradation of our nation for the sake of selfish and stupid reasons.

  4. #24
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    Re: Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation a higher murder rate?

    Quote Originally Posted by nekrodev View Post
    Read: You support the stagnation and/or degradation of our nation for the sake of selfish and stupid reasons.
    Nothing is more selfish than demanding others pay for your existence.
    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Yeah; a shotgun IS a rifle; it uses a different load.
    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    You know that Reagan signed the Brady Bill - right?
    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    The only "sport" that most gun owners participate in is suicide or murder.

  5. #25
    Educator kitsune's Avatar
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    Re: Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation a higher murder rate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felis Leo View Post
    Too pat an answer by half, kitsune. In terms of the sheer number of people killed by nation states historically, Germany, Japan (and Great Britain) have the United States beat, hands down. And in the case of Japan and Germany, many people still have (and certainly almost all had) living relatives who took part in atrocities, from Babi Yar to Nanking. Yet these societies are still less violent with a lower murder rate overall, guns or no guns.
    It's not a numbers issue, it's a cultural issue.

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    Re: Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation a higher murder rate?

    No. Most murders in the US are tied to negative economic factors; poverty, and the War on Drugs. A social safety net that increases personal freedom, and an end to the tyrannical, police state-esque War on Drugs would do more to drop crime than any well-intended weapon legislation.

    Half the problem is the Calvinist inspired, uniquely American idea that the poor need to suffer to receive any help.
    And there's no need to worry since everything is mostly nothing;
    or so I'm told by an angel in a white lab coat

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    Re: Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation a higher murder rate?

    Quote Originally Posted by kitsune View Post
    It's not a numbers issue, it's a cultural issue.

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    Certainly it is cultural. But it must be remembered that Germany, Japan and Great Britain all had within living memory cultures steeped to the gills in a bloody, nationalistic, martial tradition, with an indefatigable sense of manifest destiny. Yet today these countries are all relatively placid in terms of domestic tranquility when compared to us. I am saying that there is more to it than the United States historically having a culture of violence and these other countries historically having cultures of peace.
    Last edited by Felis Leo; 08-18-19 at 11:37 PM.
    Itís in the small things that the rot starts. Do the wrong thing once, itís easier to do it again. Do the individualistic thing once, it is easy to do it again.

    Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus

  8. #28
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    Re: Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation a higher murder rate?

    Quote Originally Posted by nekrodev View Post
    Read: You support the stagnation and/or degradation of our nation for the sake of selfish and stupid reasons.
    spot on

  9. #29
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    Re: Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation a higher murder rate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felis Leo View Post
    Certainly it is cultural. But it must be remembered that Germany, Japan and Great Britain all had cultures steeped to the gills in a bloody, nationalistic, martial tradition, with an indefatigable sense of manifest destiny. Yet today these countries are all relatively placid in terms of domestic tranquility when compared to us. I am saying that there is more to it than the United States historically having a culture of violence and these other countries historically having cultures of peace.
    They are also older in one respect or another. And their people claim to be mystified by the American fixation on being able to keep and bear easy death.
    So Felis, can you expand a little? I think I could probably learn something here




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    Re: Is one of the prices of freedom and wealth of a nation a higher murder rate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    Gang violence alone doesn't account for the differential, and yes, they do have gang issues as well, even if not to the same extent.
    Yes it does. Gang violence is to "thank" for at minimum 25% and as much as 75% (due to murders with unknown motive) of murders. You dont think removing thousands (and possible most) of murders every year would have an effect? Do the math.

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